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RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 8/31/2006 11:30:43 PM

Emperor1956

Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline

WOW. A thread about "Old Guard" that doesn't make grandiose claims about being trained in a secret European Castle and that basically gets it right. What are we coming to?

prettichinadoll, I think you got some basic and good answers. If you have any chance of getting to Chicago, the Leather Archives & Museum is everything Archer and Pandora say, and more. It is a wonderful collection and everytime I go there I find things that give Me hope and connect Me to a shared past.

You might find the oral history project interesting. There are three of the histories available on the web (and I think more are coming). http://www.leatherarchives.org/collections/oral/oral.htm

This made me think (always dangerous). MOST of the oral histories being recorded for LA&M are (1) people 60+ and (2) gay men. Is anyone doing the het/bi and younger leather community? For that matter, is there any interest in a collarMe based oral history project? I would love to read the oral history of Archer, or Pandora, for example. I know that Midori has donated her papers, and I've heard tell that an oral history is in the works. I would even take oral histories in the "LA&M" format for posterity. It would be interesting to see if an archive developed. The link to how to take an oral history is http://www.leatherarchives.org/oral/index.htm

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 41

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 9/1/2006 12:37:09 AM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956
I would even take oral histories in the "LA&M" format for posterity. It would be interesting to see if an archive developed. The link to how to take an oral history is http://www.leatherarchives.org/oral/index.htm

The Archives also gives out a booklet (about 10+ pages if memory serves me correctly) on archiving your history. It details out how to best preserve recordings, photos, documents, etc, and talks specifically to recording oral histories. I betcha if you call or email Rick Storer, he'd be able to get you a few. I just was bending his ear this past weekend about the history of The Bike Stop here in Philadelphia. He had no idea what a treasure trove we have here in the City of Brotherly Love!

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to Emperor1956)

Post #: 42

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 1/4/2007 6:09:22 AM

feralcat

Posts: 116
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline

Hi everyone...There are two new books out about the Leather Lifestyle that you may find very informative...great reads too. They are both by Robert Rubel.The one I am reading now is called Protocol Handbook for the Leather Slave:Theory and Practice.

Now it is not a list of" things you must do to be Leather",more of a general book to provide ideas and discussions. I read lots of things on BDSM,take what suits me ,tailor them to suit my needs and desires. So no it is NOT about creating a cookie cutter Master,or being the "perfect" slave.

What I find VERY attractive about the Leather Lifestyle is the peaceful ,regal vibe I get from couples that practice this. Actually meeting anyone in this lifestyle is a bit different.There is a flow, a serentity....hard to explain,but much more thought is put into this than the average "slap and tie stuff" some subs and Masters (Master having no gender attached). Now while I firmly believe in" do what you enjoy", the slave I am searching for should have more Leather in him than not..

Geez that last line sounds really" odd" coming from a rubberist...lol

And I agree this sect of BDSM is almost secretive, but if you are willing to listen and are curious they are more than happy to share ideas and thoughts .

I find there are VERY few subs out here who have the desire to grasp anything other than their owm....ok...let me stop before I get into the rant about the "do me do me do me " letters I get! And when I even mention service being something other than sexual ,*poof* gone. I have been told twice this week that I am "intense". Amusing really.

There is also new magazine published that is put together with articles from various people into this Lifestyle-sorry the name escapes me.All are available at Purple Passion in NYC.

Please drop me a line and I will get the names of some other books on this same topic if you are interested.

Enjoy!

Ms Feral

*I am trolling this topic to see if I can find a like minded slave,more than one way to flush them out I hope!*

(in reply to MisPandora)

Post #: 43

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 1/4/2007 6:43:57 AM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

People told me that if anyone said they know an "old guard" person, he would be lying. because You have to be like in your 80s to actually see a real old guard

This would be incorrect, not about the age part itself, but that anyone who knows an old guard person would be lying. I know many of them though they are men who were boys to the generation originally known as old guard. One thing that is very trademark of this time is the hierarchical order of things - that is, you didn't come in as a Sir but as a boy and you had to earn your leather and maybe someday become a Sir, though there are boys who chose to remain boys forever, it's a personal decision based on who you are on the inside. Anyway, I know a man in his 50s whose Daddy/Sir is still alive and is in his 70s. One reason you will not find many old gaurd people left is because of AIDS. Things were very different back then in terms of safe sex and I would estimate that 75% of the gay leathermen of that generation are now dead. As for slaves, this term was taken very seriously. I would say, from my experience with them, that most "submissive" people identified as boys and not slaves. A boy has a Daddy or Sir, a slave has a Master. These are very different things. There were women involved in the old guard as well...you can read a book by a famous leatherwoman Vi Johnson. Though "old guard" is technically not still occuring, I guess in the strictest sense, there are many leather people who still live by the traditions. You will find these people at leather conferences like the upcoming "Mid Atlantic Leather" in Washington DC next weekend, Southplains Leatherfest in TX in feb., etc. You will also find that most people who outsiders would consider "old guard" wouldn't take that label on themselves.

The most distinguishing thing about "old guard" to me is the values that were held by the people practicing the lifestyle. It was more than just about sex, it was spiritual. I wish I could explain better but I can't because I wasn't there. Instead, let me post a letter written by someone who lived it.

(in reply to prettichinadoll)

Post #: 44

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 1/4/2007 6:46:31 AM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
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This letter/story was written by a man named Daddy Jim who is a teacher and mentor to me. His website is http://www.hotsir.com if you are interested in learning more. He loves to share his stories with the world and this one was sent out to a list I'm on with him.

********

I wanted to begin this year in honoring the MAN I call SIR and have been for the past almost 33 years.

My very first piece of earned leather was the armband many of you see near the front door of my home when you come in, draped over my SIRS photo. Just several weeks ago I was telling Josh how special that was to me. I then took it and put it on my RIGHT arm, flagging bottom and it brought up a wealth of memories that took over my emotions and I began to choke up with tears rolling down my face. Even after 30+ years I still get very emotional when I put that armband near my right arm instead of my left which is where I usually wear it now.
I earend that FIRST piece of leather after being in SIRS service for 6 months. I had just finished cooking dinner for him and we had done what we usually did. Sit down and eat. After dinner he told me to go into the bedroom and go find the box in the left upper drawer of the nightstand next to the bed. The box was small and black. It had a red piece of paper folded over it in half but It was taped down. I brought it to him thinking it was something for the table he had gotten at his job since he always brought home *stuff* for his place. IT sat on the table for hours and about 10PM he called me over to sit down at the dining table again, which I did.

Up until that point I had never seen SIR show much emotion until we sat down and I noticed how he began to choke up and tears well up in his eyes. I knew I had done nothing wrong but for a minute I thought he was going to tell me to get lost and was upset in how to do that.

He handed me the box and said to read the card. The words are still in my mind and will be with me for the rest of however long I live.
Little one, I want you to know how much I appreciate your service. You have done well and honor who I am by who you are. Accept this with my love, for I do love you, sunshine.

I opened the box and there it was. My FIRST piece of leather. I sat there just staring at it. By this time I knew somewhat of what was expected of me in protocol so I got down on my knees and presented the box back to him WITHOUT ever touching the band. HE smiled and took the armband out and I offered BOTH arms outstretched to him; never assuming where he was going to put it. Was it to go on my right arm; my neck as a training collar or maybe on my left arm if he wanted to put me in charge of another boy (at this point in time I was NOT collared and at 6 months with him I thought that MAYBE he would put me in charge of another boy..talk about my own foolishness and stupidity). I wasnt sure if it was a training collar or an armband. I just wasnt sure because I owned NOTHING so I had no points of reference. He placed it and tied it to my right arm and I knew then that I was deemed his bottom boy and it was at THAT point I knew he would eventually collar me.

I did NOT move from that spot, keepin my head down until he grabbed that newly banded right arm and lifted me up into his lap. I must have cried for 15 minutes because I knew I belonged and was cared for. It was MOMENTOUS and life changing. I was NEVER The same again. It altered who I was up till that point and I could never go back to the guy I was before. There was no turning back.

In the subsequent years the bond that I have with that man will last PAST death into eternity.
It wasnt a bond of infatuation, physical attractiveness or hot sex. It was the man I grew to love and bond to PLUS all of the above. IT wasnt goo goo eyes, clasping hands, private whispers or long stares. It was animal, primal man to man honest communication, love, connection, service and friendship. IT was beyond what my body could offer him. It went right to the very essence to who I was TO him.

(in reply to DominaSmartass)

Post #: 45

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 1/4/2007 6:48:06 AM

RedSavageSlave

Posts: 733
Joined: 9/12/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: prettichinadoll
I read this book called "slave craft", in which the write shows a very strong tendency towards the "old guard" traditon. Yet I find it very hard to accept as a submissive myself.

Natural slaves and submissives may resemble each other, but they are not alike. A submissive is not a slave.

But she COULD be!

If she had the clothes of course.

_____________________________

My give a damn's busted.

So many thoughts, so few of them rational

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 46

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 1/4/2007 6:59:06 AM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

Here is an informative site i had bookmarked regarding "Old Guard" - there are 19 articles on the subject http://www.fetishalliance.net/Stories/stories.htm

Ohhh! That tickles me pink :) Thanks for posting that link, as I am friends with the owners (or should I say webMaster and webslave) of FetishAlliance.net. They are some of the truest "Old Guard" people you could find.

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 47

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 1/4/2007 8:32:55 AM

emergencynurse3

Posts: 3
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline

I was fortunate to make the journey from london and be able to attend a weekend event in Chicago in October. Now, I am terrible with names...but..I recall a ceremony for a Master, which it was my honour to observe. Representatives from the LAM were in attendence and there was a wonderful exhibition which showed off some of the history and articles/artifacts. I havent yet been able to make it to the LAM..but fully plan on doing so on my next trip, and going on what little I saw at the exhibition stand I think it a wonderful resource.

Be well A/all

< Message edited by emergencynurse3 -- 1/4/2007 8:43:07 AM >

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 48

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 1/4/2007 10:28:48 AM

TPEOwner

Posts: 73
Joined: 9/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: prettichinadoll

Once again, my curiosity got the best of me. I start to get interested in the people or a concept known as "old guard". What are those people?
Dolly

There is no simple answer. The myths that you hear about old guard are based on WWII veterans and the communities they started after the war. Beyond that, it's all crap. The notion that all these men invented bdsm, or had a universal culture with universal protocols is simply internet nonsense. They didn't all agree or do things the same way then any more than we do now. Neither did they invent bdsm or any of the customs atributed to them.

What someone means when they claim to be old guard, or to do things the old guard way, is that they are insecure about themselves, and so claim to do things the one true way. "MY customs are the same as the pure original bdsm way." When I meet someone like that, I chuckle to myself then move on to find someone interesting to talk to.

If you are interested in learning about the history of WIITWD, there is an excellent yahoo group with very knowledgable contributors dedicated to the subject. The url is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LeatherHistory/

(in reply to prettichinadoll)

Post #: 49

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 1/4/2007 11:21:32 AM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

What someone means when they claim to be old guard, or to do things the old guard way, is that they are insecure about themselves, and so claim to do things the one true way. "MY customs are the same as the pure original bdsm way." When I meet someone like that, I chuckle to myself then move on to find someone interesting to talk to.

Don't you think that's a bit of a sweeping generalization? I agree that there are some idiots out there who claim that what they do is the only right way because people "have been doing like this for hundreds of years" or something like that. But if you truly disregard anyone who claims to have a traditional leather background then you are missing out on a lot of interesting conversation and knowledge. By the way, I don't know ANY people who I would call "old guard" who actually call themselves that or who claim that their ways are the pure original ones that everyone should follow. Actually, all the old leathermen I know advise to read the actual millitary protocol guides for "the best book on protocols ever." So obviously, even they got their ideas and practices from somewhere. And it's not somewhere that isn't easily accessible to everyone either.

(in reply to TPEOwner)

Post #: 50

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 1/4/2007 12:10:07 PM

MasterWilliam55

Posts: 361
Joined: 1/27/2006
Status: offline

I agree with feralcat's sentiments. The "mememe" children I try to avoid like the plague. I would also like to thank MasterLon's explanation of "Old Guard" culture. The protocols I enjoy are, for the most part manifestations of that culture. The heteralsexual BDSM community has a deep history and a recent but influential part of that history revolves around those we refer to as "Old guard".

I belong to a High Protocol heterasexual group (basically herterasexual) that recognizes that some of it's roots are based in the Old Guard culture. When we come into a new culture we often do so without historical perspective and often end up trying to re-invent the wheel. Strangely, these wheels usually end up square. Learn our history and we'll be better Doms and subs for it.

Quick rant: WIITWED is the lamest excuse for an acronym I have ever seen. I'll stick with good ole D/s and BDSM thank you.

(in reply to TPEOwner)

Post #: 51

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 1/4/2007 12:20:44 PM

TPEOwner

Posts: 73
Joined: 9/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass

quote:

What someone means when they claim to be old guard, or to do things the old guard way, is that they are insecure about themselves, and so claim to do things the one true way. "MY customs are the same as the pure original bdsm way." When I meet someone like that, I chuckle to myself then move on to find someone interesting to talk to.

Don't you think that's a bit of a sweeping generalization? I agree that there are some idiots out there who claim that what they do is the only right way because people "have been doing like this for hundreds of years" or something like that. But if you truly disregard anyone who claims to have a traditional leather background then you are missing out on a lot of interesting conversation and knowledge. By the way, I don't know ANY people who I would call "old guard" who actually call themselves that or who claim that their ways are the pure original ones that everyone should follow. Actually, all the old leathermen I know advise to read the actual millitary protocol guides for "the best book on protocols ever." So obviously, even they got their ideas and practices from somewhere. And it's not somewhere that isn't easily accessible to everyone either.

Yes, it's a sweeping generalisation, and it's also true. There is no such thing as "A traditional leather background". There are as many leather backgrounds as there are people who have been into leather, and anyone who claims their way is THE traditional way is full of shit.

(in reply to DominaSmartass)

Post #: 52

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 1/4/2007 12:51:39 PM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: prettichinadoll

Once again, my curiosity got the best of me. I start to get interested in the people or a concept known as "old guard". What are those people?

Usually Cry Babies

(in reply to prettichinadoll)

Post #: 53

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 1/4/2007 1:27:34 PM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear DominaSmartass, Ladies and Gentlemen;

I agree with your comments in regard to the WebMaster and web slave of Florida's finest gentlemen, who hold FetishAliance site.

They are both a lot of fun to be around.

Respectfully submitted,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to DominaSmartass)

Post #: 54

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 1/4/2007 2:54:06 PM

orfunboi

Posts: 1223
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline

Do the books have anything about old guard in them?

(in reply to feralcat)

Post #: 55

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 1/4/2007 4:45:46 PM

whisperedsighs

Posts: 349
Joined: 11/12/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Here is an informative site i had bookmarked regarding "Old Guard" - there are 19 articles on the subject http://www.fetishalliance.net/Stories/stories.htm

Thank you for providing the link to an informative site.

_____________________________

oh my god that was so wrong! .... again please!

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 56

RE: Old Guard-who are those people? - 1/10/2007 11:55:21 AM

subsidize

Posts: 85
Joined: 1/2/2007
Status: offline

you are right luv, old guard leather refers to the gay community. all old guards are gay...

(in reply to prettichinadoll)

Post #: 57

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