RE: Do slaves have the right to say no?

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RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 9:24:29 AM

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Hello
the answer here is a simpl one, Yes. who knows better then a slave where her boundries lay, who knows better what makes us feel safe, and who better to warn a Master when he is getting dangously close to hitting a personal land mind. So let us put up are red flags, and guides to where some danger points might me. Especially for someone like me who suffers from PTS. would it not be better to be safe then sorry
take care and be safe
Master Mawgan/slave java

(in reply to Homestead)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 9:24:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sadisticmaster11

slaves have no rights, that is why they are slaves.

Only if they are a slave against their consent.

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Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to sadisticmaster11)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 9:48:47 AM

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkajira
In certain cases. for example, you have a slave and you are interested in anal sex. you are not interested in lube, or whatever, and when you do (she obediently complies) the girl who has such a high pain tolerence begs you stop, because it hurts too much.Now, this is a girl who has been raped (on several different occurances) in the past and you know this. Do you tell her basically that she has no right to deny you something that you want, and do it anyway, especially if you are...um...well endowed and don't take it easy. So, do you stop or tell her to shut up?

You stop.   Latter, you might ask if she really wanted you to stop.   But there is no question,
you shouldn't do anything she doesn't want you to do, unless that was clearly negotiated
IMEDIATELY beforehand and put on paper. For the sake of not causing tissue damage,
you should always use lube.   Not using lots of lube in my opinion is insane. There needs
to be a lot better communication between sub and slave. This question would never
come up, had this been discussed with the sub before hand. What makes bdsm
legal is the fact that it is consensual. And consensual requires a level of communication
to ensure there are no misunderstandings.

In any event you need to be very careful when you do anything like this to make
sure you don't tear tissue or cause any damage.    Any dom who causes physical
damage to their sub, should be hung by his balls. If this law was in effect, would
you stop, if your sub asked you to stop during such an act.

Even if a sub told me before hand that I could do this, I would stop.    It is the Top's
ultimate responsibility not to damage the body of the sub. If a sub begged me to
damage her body, I would not do it. It would also be against the law in many
states and a prosecutable offense.    You can't legally damage somone's body,
even if they consent.

Concerning the fact she was raped in the past, this is something that requires
extensive discussion before play, and you need to discuss how forced play
would effect her. In a situation like this you need to be extra careful, not to
damage her psyche. It is always better to err on the side of caution and safety.
You can always ask her she felt about it. If you are into forcing her to endure
things she really doesn't want, and you know she raped, you have to find out if
this is really something she generally wants you to do. If you are doing it against
her general wishes then you are being abusive and taking advantage of her.

If you are the sub, you should get therapy and flee from this guy. He is
dangerous and uncaring.

Except for real tissue damage, everything is negotiable and should be
negotiated before hand. If a top does something without first getting
consent, it is most likely a crime and a presecutable offense. If a top
does something without consent, that you really didn't like, you should
flee from this top or dom.    A collar is not a license to abuse a sub or
violate the law.

Ok I'm a nasty evil bastard laddy. Your post however nicely put and politically correct is being posted to mostly old hands and many pretty extreme ones too. What you are espousing of a watered down version suitable for your vanilla friends and sunday school..

If you actually do understand the BDSM Areas, you will know that depending on where you live, much of BDSM including consuality (yes even consensual slavery) is illegal, so please don't come the innocent boy and waffel on about what is against the law.

Now I have to ask you what real time experience you have. my reason is that after just reading your profile to see how you come across there, I am left with the impression that you are either a switch with more bottom time than top, or you are a sub pretending to me a Dom.... Of course you may have no practical experience and just theory.. Perhaps in time you may learn that there are wheels within wheels and things are never as they seem.....

BTW, the OP was refering to slaves NOT submissives. best you learn the difference. Slaves DO NOT negotiate once they are collared ever!!! Only submissives negotiate after they are collared.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 9/2/2006 9:52:08 AM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 11:08:55 AM

MistressMelissa

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Thank you Iron Bear, I do enjoy your posts.

The original question was; does a slave and a kajira at that, have the right to say no?

What I find interesting is that so many have tried to rationalize what slavery is and have tried to turn this into a discussion about what is fair or just. Slavery is neither fair nor just. All that matters to this question is the Gorean philosophy. Having read the first 17 of their books, I have not had the opportunity to finish the series, but you can not debate their ways unless you have some understanding of them. In the Gorean mindset the kajira is an animal much like my dog. While many of us have dogs, how we treat and care for them varies widely. Hint, when screening a perspective owner, look at how they treat the rest of their possessions. It will be a good clue of how they will treat you. I can hear you whining already that you are not a piece of property and that you are human. To that I say, what is it you are asking of an owner? You claim you are slave and that you desire to be treated as a piece of property, do you not? The point here is that she asked to be owned in the Gorean way. Why does the girl bitch now that she is treated this way? This is not a discussion about the quality of owner she chose. This is a discussion about whether a slave can say no.

Gor is not a box store you can walk the isles and shop for what you want. Just because I agree with the Gorean concept of slavery, I do not claim Gorean since I can not accept the idea that my "freedom" exists solely at the whim of a Free Man. Therefor, I read and study their ways, but I will never claim their ways. When this girl claimed kajira she claimed their ways, lock, stock and barrel. She has two choices, submit or leave.

< Message edited by MistressMelissa -- 9/2/2006 11:10:49 AM >

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www.dshaven.com

The person who says it can not be done, should not interrupt the person doing it. - Ancient Wisdom

(in reply to IronBear)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 11:24:40 AM

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throws in towel

< Message edited by MissTlTTYMilk -- 9/2/2006 11:36:41 AM >

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. "
--Bertrand Russell

(in reply to Homestead)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 11:25:39 AM

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i'm finding this very interesting. i am getting as many different answers as there are colors in the rainbow. i'm still confused. i think maybe i phrased my question wrong. There are very good reasons i am a slave and not an Owner, but i still think that were the position was reversed, i would have stopped, if only to ask for an explanantion. i didn't actually mean to say no, but the words were out of my mouth before i could stop them, and considering that i have never in all the time that He has known me, said no, that should have made him realize that something very real was very wrong.

And although i have much interest in the Gorean aspect of the lifestyle, i am not technically a kajira slave, and He is not a Gorean Master...it was just something he calls me...like a pet name. sorry to have been misleading.

(in reply to MistressMelissa)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 11:29:46 AM

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Many other people would have stopped too. But the fact that you stop doesn't mean it's because you're obliged to stop.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkajira

i still think that were the position was reversed, i would have stopped, if only to ask for an explanantion.

(in reply to Yourkajira)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 11:39:24 AM

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkajira

And although i have much interest in the Gorean aspect of the lifestyle, i am not technically a kajira slave, and He is not a Gorean Master...it was just something he calls me...like a pet name. sorry to have been misleading.

and THAT would be why it is always important to couch your replies based on the INFORMATION GIVEN! LOL

This has been a fun thread, Yourkajira, thanks

(in reply to Yourkajira)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 11:41:28 AM

ownedandcollared

Posts: 217
Joined: 1/21/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkajira

In certain cases.

for example, you have a slave and you are interested in anal sex. you are not interested in lube, or whatever, and when you do (she obediently complies) the girl who has such a high pain tolerence begs you stop, because it hurts too much.Now, this is a girl who has been raped (on several different occurances) in the past and you know this. Do you tell her basically that she has no right to deny you something that you want, and do it anyway, especially if you are...um...well endowed and don't take it easy. So, do you stop or tell her to shut up?

No, slaves do not have the right to say no. If you want that right, you should be a submissive, rather than a slave.

That being said, i believe (taught by my own Master) that when it gets to the point that your slave even thinks of denying You something that You desire, that something is very very wrong...not neccessarily with the SLAVE, but with the CIRCUMSTANCES, and they should be readdressed

Mike's amanda

(in reply to Yourkajira)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 12:14:24 PM

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As a Master/Owner you should care for your properties. A slave is like a car. If you have a nice car you take care of it and don´t over rev it,wash it e t c right? Still is just a property but you like it to perform well every day so you care for it. In my mind is pretty much the same with a slave - you can use it like you wish but if used in unproper way don´t be surprise if the slaves overall performance will be very poor. We like a slave that will be content and perform any service we demand - but still you have to use you brain as an owner. But some people just destroys the cars and get new one and this is the same with bad Masters/Owners too. Hope you are able to follow my thoughts.

Master M

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Dominant married couple from Sweden

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RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 12:36:53 PM

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Greetings, Master Joe,
Thank you for your comlpiment, it is much appreciated. i would also enjoy aforementioned debate, were the both of us not a tad tipsy, sometime.

Greetings, puella...
your posts, as ever, were absolutely amazing, beautiful, and accurate. thank you. i so enjoy reading your words. i've missed your posts in the gorean lifestyles forum, but i think i know why you, as so many others, have cut back on posting there, lately.

Greetings, bearlee,
which is why i stated, in my post, that i was only making an assumption.

best of wishes to Thee and Thine
With all respect, and in hopes that this is pleasing to the Free,
bina, of Wolf

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(in reply to MadameEMasterM)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 12:45:32 PM

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Joined: 2/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressMelissa
Why does the girl bitch now that she is treated this way?

I think that's rather harsh to say.
It sounds like she accepts the lifestyle but has come across an unforseen and terrifying aspect of it. I don't feel she should be chastised for wanting to seek answers for something that could have a potentially devastating effect. There are grave consequences when someone becomes emotionally unbalanced, possibly leading to suicide. Rape by itself has the ability to do that to many people without adding this dimension to it. The girl must be in a bad way if she's speaking up, it may even be survival instinct at this point, we don't know.
Just ask yourself this, even in the Gorean lifestyle (which I know little about to be fair), if it permissible to do some thing that could potentially kill your slave?

(in reply to MistressMelissa)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 1:20:18 PM

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thank you bina... I hope my last post there on the Gorean Forum hasn't changed your mind..but sometimes.... good lordy!

:)

(in reply to millisande)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 2:32:04 PM

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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There comes a time when one has to find a suitable way, even under Gorean terms, for such situations to occur. my way and one which is used in some form or another by all the Giorean masters I personally know including those who were my mentors and peer group whilst I was a Gorean Master was and is to allow times for a slave to converse with her Master freely albeit showing due deference and respect. In such times she should be free to open her heart and bring to the table any and all matters which trouble her or those matters of which she needs clarification. In other times, let's say her master is being bloody minded and refused to take medication for some ailment or other, a slaves should know that she may beg to speek freely and to indicate that it is vital that she does so. It would be an unwise master who refused her and an unwise slave who spoke about frivelous matters.In all cases if matters can not be resolved and some form of rift occurs, the girl should consider begging release and if she does she should offer her reasons. In the final analysis she does have a pair of feet and can walk. In the gor books she would be escaping and dealt with on the first occasion by a good flogging and on the second occasion being hamstrung. however this is earth and such things can not happen. No sensible Master will attempt to stop her from leaving. better to follow protocol and even try to turn a coin by selling her. yes i know that she may not agree and this can not be inforced either. it does depend on the state of mind when the separation happens.

IB

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to puella)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 2:48:25 PM

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If your a for real no limit slave then no you had no right to say no. You got yourself into the predicament and you have to pay the consquences. The Dom however should have known better and it was bad judgement oiled with ego that lead him to do what he did, you don't destroy that which you want to use. I would never abuse my truck nor would I my slave if I had one.
But at least you can walk away and maybe learn something from it.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to Yourkajira)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 8:34:44 PM

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Ok, for another Gorean Masters point of view on this.

If you are not in a severe M/s or Gorean relationship, then, before you were collared, you should have sat down with your Owner, and said "Hey, I have a problem with A, B, and C". I don't know if you did or not.

I know binas limits. I know what she has adversions to, and what she is afraid of. Does she beg me not to use some things on her (such as the crop), yes. Does it mean I stop? Hell no.

You stated that your a no-limits slave. Therefore, your only way of saying no to your Owner is to beg release, or to walk. Once you say No-Limits, as far as I'm concerned, it's NO LIMITS! Therefore, the anal sex if fine. Tieing you upside down and using you as a pinata is fine. However, it does sound as if you may need to rethink the no limits part of the relationship. Everyone has limits. Hell, I'm waiting for IB to hitch a ride to the States, meet up with me, and deal with a limit.......But, that's way of subject at this moment.

Be good girl, and attempt to figure out if the no limits is right for you.

_____________________________

It's my way or the highway. Just happens that the highway is on my way.

~Master Wolf

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RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 9:28:18 PM

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Were you physically hurt? Did his not stopping leave negative affects on your health? I could be wrong but it sounds like you are uneasy with your Masters choice. And that's ok. I'm not sure what I would have done if I were a Master. I hope I would know when too much was too much and have stopped. hmmm interesting. I'm not a slave and I have limits about this topic. I have talked to the Dom I play with and said there must be lube. It's going to hurt enough... I don't want to feel the affects weeks after.

(in reply to wolffeathers)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 10:02:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkajira

Do slaves have the right to say no?

A slave does not have the right to refuse. This is why entering slavery is a grim matter; the arrangement should never be taken frivolously, or assumed that at its core it is "just like all relationships."

Of course, with this arrangement comes great responsibility, too. As with the stewardship of any valued possession, it is important to stress the virtue of good judgment and care from the owner. If you feel you may severely damage your slave or endanger her health with a task, it behooves you to stop and reassess—if even simply for your own ultimate benefit.

(in reply to Yourkajira)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 10:30:42 PM

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fast reply

To the OP, whatever the outcome of your situation I hope that whatever transpires will leave you fulfilled and well in life.

To the issue of whether a slave has a right to say "no" well I cannot answer this as I see myself as a submissive. I have some issues with being able to perform anally for my Daddy in certain positions as I can feel the tissue tearing no matter what kind of lube we use. He is addressing this issue in a way that will be healthy for me, as he knows this is an activity and want very much to please him. It is issues like this that come up between two people that can clue you in on whether to accept a collar from someone, or not to. If he was not patient with my physical limitations it is my job not to accept a collar.

As to some of the more general points of the thread, people should keep in mind that there are laws that keep us from being cruel to animals, if we are not allowed to be cruel to animals this should clue you in, a human being is at least as valuable as an animal, one should not be cruel.

As far as whether or not a slave can say no, well yes a slave can say no, a slave should say no rather than be abused, and only a slave can decide what "abuse" means to them. You can walk out of any relationship according to the law. Real legal slavery does not exist. I think of Ms as a mindset and a way of living. Legally speaking a slave can leave and should leave if they feel a master is harming them. As Juliet said, it is her responsibility to herself to be sure she is safe.

It is all about choices in life. I have something I live by, I never ask a question unless I want the answer, so I am very careful what I ask in my Ds relationship, and I am very careful about the stands that I make because I realize it could mean choosing to walk if I am not going to get my needs met, even if I have a collar. If I were in the situation where I felt harmed, collar or no collar, I would have to walk. It is an important stand one makes of where they set their lines of where consensual Ds is occuring and moving into nonconsensuality... everyone's boundaries are different, but we all have them, even if we only have the limit "I will not let you kill me", that is still a limit....

Just my thoughts on this, and as I have read many responses everyone has a slightly different view

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to amayos)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 11:47:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

As far as whether or not a slave can say no, well yes a slave can say no, a slave should say no rather than be abused, and only a slave can decide what "abuse" means to them. You can walk out of any relationship according to the law. Real legal slavery does not exist.

Legal slavery does not exist (in many parts of the world), yet slavery exists, nonetheless—weather or not it is defined by law or border. Slavery, and even the consensual kind, is, if practiced to its literary accuracy, a form of abuse, no matter how you pretty it up. It is the act of lowering a human being to the status of an animal, object, or whatever instrument you see fit. Loving and hugging and lil' princess Care Bear© kisses are rightfully not the focus many Masters and Mistresses have in mind when they seek a slave, and that needs to be made clear.

Instead of the cart before the horse decoding of what is or is not abuse and calling a hotline should we suddenly find ourselves with our "kink" not in sync, I feel it is upon us to instead focus more on advocating the value behind the terms and disciplines we use with scrutiny, and embark upon living them out in earnest and with personal accountability.

Walking into slavery while seeking to make continual assertions of your needs and insisting on holding on to the responsibility of deciding what is or is not good for you is not slavery. It is at its best submission; a term people need to embrace and identify more with for their own safety if they cannot undertake what slavery physically and emotionally entails.

< Message edited by amayos -- 9/3/2006 12:23:28 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

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