Leonidas
Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
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Wow! I see I have some catching up to do here.
quote:
Taggard Said:
The thing that gets me about Goreans is they refuse to admit that their lifestyle is as based on pretense as the rest of BDSM. I have been around this mulberry bush with Leonidas.
First of all, you should understand that Malkinius belongs to a group of men who do pretty much think that they have the keys to the universe, for better or for worse. They are the true believers and keepers of the flame, and everyone else is, well, everyone else. I can't fault him, or them, for it. Afterall, Xenophobia is described as a uniquely Gorean attitude in the books ("the word for stranger and enemy in gorean is the same" and all that). It's just not an attitude that I care to model myself, and if I did, I probably wouldn't post to boards that were frequented by people unknown to me. I certainly am guarded around those who claim to be one of us until I get the "cut of his jib" as they say, but I personally have a hard time with the "you're a poseur/player/pretender and I'm not" stuff.
quote:
I have been around this mulberry bush with Leonidas. Your slavery, just like my slavery, is based on a pretty fiction. It is not real slavery. It is consensual slavery, and as such, not the be all and end all you pretend it to be.
Once more 'round the mulberry bush, shall we? What I practice is Gorean bondage. Is it "real" slavery? Depends on your definition of slavery. My slave has surrendered every aspect of her life to my control. She eats, works, sleeps, exercises, and learns at my direction and command. She serves me in any way that I see fit, without exception or condition. Her daily reality is a condition of bondage. I suppose you could say that she's pretending to be a slave all day long, every day, but the hairs that you are splitting there are getting pretty fine. She lives as a slave. Yes, legally she could reclaim her freedom. The moment that she did so she would cease to be a slave. If you went to her right now and told her that you had come to rescue her, and restore her freedom, the look in her eyes would probably tell you why the legality of the situation isn't particularly relevant.
The distinction that I think Malkinius is trying to draw in his inimitable style is between true power differential, and power play. When a slave submits themselves as mine has to me, they are acknowleging that a real power differential exists between them and their master. They prefer submission to that stronger individual to "going it alone". It's a profound life choice, and one that human beings have been making since long before anyone thought to give BDSM a name. Power play, on the other hand, is a sex game. Two people are going to agree that, within certain (usually sexual) bounds, one is going to surrender to the power of the other. The aim is mutual sexual gratification. They are playing with the same emotions and drives that cause the slave to submit to a master, and the master to accept that submission. These are very old, very powerful drives that certainly can enhance sexual pleasure, which is the aim of folks engaging in power play. At the same time, they both acknowledge that it's a sexual kink, nothing more. Neither indends to insinuate that a power differentail exists outside the bounds of sexual play. In fact many folks who engage in power play believe that to extend the dynamic that they play with sexually outside the bounds of play would be immoral. I personally see nothing wrong with it. It's just not what I do, though what I do would look very similar to the casual observer.
When Malkinius speaks of being Gorean without owning a slave, what he is alluding to is that we believe that living as a free and honorable man by adherance to a strict code of conduct is the rightful aim. In doing so one does tend to accumulate personal power. Slave ownership is a side-effect. A man can be a Gorean man if he is so engaged regardless of whether he owns a slave. We think that if a man is not so empowered (what we call a "free man") he has no power to which a slave might rightfully submit. If a slave does submit to a man not so empowered, she's headed for trouble, and so is he. The kind of slavery that I describe above only really works if a true power differential does exist, afterall.
quote:
Just a side note, but many of us neither find you particularly dangerous, nor wish you were part of us.
Dangerous? Nah. Perhaps only to the extent that we are, as the song goes "a challenge to your balance".
quote:
mantis65 Said:
What about the male sub/slave hating?
I don't hate male slaves, especially if I have something that needs to be cleaned or painted. How are you with boat paint? <grin>. We think that dominance and freedom are the birthrights of men. Notice I say right, not entitlement. They aren't the same thing. Freedom and dominance are yours to claim if you choose, but you must claim them. If you cannot, or will not, you rightfully belong in a collar. I won't hate you for that, but neither will I ever accept you as my peer. I will see you, and treat you, exactly as you are; a slave. Not to worry, mantis, a great number of men are slaves. Most just don't admit it.
< Message edited by Leonidas -- 2/17/2005 5:34:46 AM >
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Take care of yourself
Leonidas
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RE: Gor: How do I know what should be taken to heart? - 
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