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RE: if unowned is she still a slave?


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RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 11/28/2006 10:47:19 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Goreans,

First thing, this is only difficult to grasp by the girl that is trying to tell the masters what she is. Insisting that we see it her way. Trust me, if you are to be a slave we WILL notice. No slave or potential slave will dictate to me or I would assume any other Goren man what it is I / he will call her. I could care less about her heart felt feelings, it is the standards that the men set within our lifestyle that dictate her status. Period. No owner, no slave. Now, there are tadpole type men out there that still want to coddle the little minx's and pamper their tender hearts. Seek solice in their arms, that will placate your empty feelings until you realize that you still lack the most important thing. Slavery to a man that owns you unconditionally. It has nothing to do with a girls feelings, her feelings will in good time land her in a man's ownership, but he will announce to the world when she is a declared slave. This is the priviledge of the master. Not the right of a slave. I bid you this. If any girl out there wants to fabricate herself a title, on her own accord, then go find a master without the savage heart of a Gorean. We harbor no pity for your feelings. Prove yourself worthy of our collars, prove yoruself worthy of the title "kajira" or "bond maid". I for one will never allow just any ole tramp to claim she is worthy of Gorean men.It is unjust to those that have earned our smiles and nods. You talk about feelings. It is the feelings, but rather the feelings and the plans of men that will determine your status. If a generic title is your quest, it does not exist around Gorean MEN. Go find it where the men submit to the whimpers of homeless sluts. I do think though that the girls that find Gorean men attractive as their masters will ponder well the meanings of baseless titles and meaningless submissions. Embrace your feelings of submission, so enough we will. It is for sure that if you behave like a slave you will surely find yourself to be claimed as one. You don't have to alter your actions, you don't have to parade around as a stuffy old FW, but it is men that will name you. Accept no false status, weight for your master to name you. You will then live as your heart has ached too. And only then. Remember the quote. For a woman to be more feminine, a man must be more masculine, and visa versa. I'm ramblin' again. Side note, we realize that collarme does not have a heading for slave in waiting or such so man law seven thousand four hundred sixty three, a girl hoping to be owned in collarme may in fact list herself as a slave since the mods lack true Gorean vision. Comments like this might get me band, so Love me while you can. (roars with laughter)

Live well my Gorean friends,

Bull

< Message edited by xBullx -- 11/28/2006 10:56:39 AM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 11/28/2006 11:55:36 AM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		greetings.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: unownedredhead
Interesting arguament.  no owner no slave.  so in the south a few hundred years ago a  slave kills his Master and burns the land.  The slave is then free?  No one has a right to chase after him because.  No Master,  No owner, no slave?  Right?

Wrong. The slave was still owned by the estate of the previous owner just as the land and any property left is still owned by the estate. That kind of property law has been settled since at least classical Roman and Greek times....including the disposition of slaves whose owner dies.


quote:

Have you ever held a slave girl?  You look in her eyes.  What do you see there?  If you are touching her.  Of course she has no owner.... she is free.  Did you see freedom in her eyes?  Talk to me for real.  No books or what you think other people want you to say.  But, truly honestly.  Today slaves are not bred or traded or sold.  Slaves feel it in themselves and are brave enough,....(.yes I said brave!) to acknowledge that they desire to serve.  Just because no Master has claimed them do you and they truly think they are free?  Malkinius  I personally am having doubts that you have grasped an unowned slave by the upper arms and pulled them in close and looked them in the eyes.

Doubt away. I just added a second slave to my home on a 24/7 basis and now need a bigger place. <grins> It is getting a little cramped. I have owned and trained slaves offline for about six years now. I know what a woman looks like who burns with the desire to serve as a slave. I can look over my shoulder and see one as I type. Yes, girl, I do know and I am talking for real as you put it. I don't do any thing else but talk reality in my posts. (Obvious attempts or successes at humor excepted.)


quote:

I mean no disrespect but am respectfully queiring your basis of conclusion.  If you are the Master I suspect you will growl at the response of your holding them tight and gazing in their eyes and seeing how they truly feel.

I base my words on years of study, work and experience. I base my words on living my life as a Gorean. I have also been through this argument/discussion at least a dozen times now...and probably more. Education and training is what I enjoy doing but it does get a bit exasperating after a while especially when there are so many pages of replies about one of the simplest concepts we talk about.

And...as a comment on how the free women who wish to be slaves or who are feed slaves should be treated....treat them as they wish to be treated, as slaves. There is precident in the books for just that. A free woman serving fully as a slave without being in either a contractual slavery or legal slavery on Gor. In almost all, if not all cases, she ends enslaved by the end of the book but life on Gor is like that. <grins>

be well....

Malkinius


_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

(in reply to unownedredhead)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 11/28/2006 1:23:33 PM   
Webmaster60


Posts: 396
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

If a girl is unowned, is she still a slave?


To echo so many others..  She is merely an unowned slave.

But to some.. is a Master (like myself) without a slave, still a Master?
I contend yes.  Its not what I do.  Its who I AM.



_____________________________

Master Michael
~~~~~~~~~~
"To sin in silence when he should
speak makes cowards of men"

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 11/28/2006 2:59:10 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal, he who echos,

  No words upon which you base your opinion. So in that, certainly not an opinion that stands credible. Make sure your not resting your opinion on semantics when it should rely on principle. Don't assume since you rest your view with a crowd that this would establish credibility for your response. Point two....read the dictionary. Websters lends documented support to mine, Malkinius' and the view of others on this matter. Our ideals aren't simply based on a feeling. As for are you a master. Since you chose to bring attention upon your own character. We will be watching close. However, you should be able to answer that one yourself. As for the answer the rest of us have on this matter. The jury is out and facts are being gathered. But I did notice you type what you see yourself as in your signature block. I suppose that should help the rest of us should any confusion ensue. I would not have rebutted your post so hastily, but as this thread is well developed in it's opinions and responses, I felt it appropriate at this time.

Live well, and I wish you luck with the trial you are about to partake,

Bull

(in reply to Webmaster60)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 11/28/2006 5:44:44 PM   
Webmaster60


Posts: 396
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
No words upon which you base your opinion

Points well taken.  The unowned slave is in itself an oxymoron...I would however ask that a slave, if unowned, is she then a free person?  Some have said that since I am without a slave, that I am a Gorean Man, not a Gorean Master. So then the slave is a Gorean woman? This indicates a free person.  A slave without one to serve tho directionless is still a slave.

On the dictionary
slave n. 1. one who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. 2. one entirely under the domination of some influence or person; a slave to a drug, 3. a drudge; a housekeeping slave. C.f. master.

Lets look at #2.. Under the domination of some "influence" OR person..
Influence?  Her belly? Can a slave be more, or less, under the domination of the influence of Norman's books, than a Master could be said to be?

::shrugs:: 


_____________________________

Master Michael
~~~~~~~~~~
"To sin in silence when he should
speak makes cowards of men"

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 11/28/2006 5:58:10 PM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		Hello redhead

I am not sure about your story, nor do I want to dive into it, but I gather you have recently suffered a loss.  These are indeed emotional times for anyone.  While I have not personally suffered the pain of such a loss, I have had the experience of finding out, I am no longer a slave.

It is mind numbing at first to realize that you can’t slap the label on your forehead because it pleases you to do so.  It is up to those Gorean men around you to accept what your heart compels you to be.  It is their benevolence that allows you even within their presence, let alone display your slave like aspects.  We as women can not stand up and demand acceptance, we must earn it.  Not by the title you wear, but by who you display yourself to be.  Over and over again.

What is in your heart can not leave you, even if you never hold that title or label slave again.  We are what we are not because of what we call ourselves, but rather, who we are deep down inside.  It is the toughest lesson I have ever had to learn.  It is the most heart wrenching and thought provoking statement I have ever had to stare at, and one I have personally stomped my feet to deny.  Yet, I can not deny what Gorean men around me dictate.  They make those rules, as a woman who is compelled towards slavery, you must accept it, and more.  Slaves make no demands, that is a principle of the institution called slavery, how then can we demand acceptance, a title?  All we can possibly do, is earn their attention by being what we long to be.  Nothing more is actually required, and that is the most wonderful thing about being among Gorean men.  If you are truly slave, you didn’t have to tell them, they already knew.

Good luck

Jahna

_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to unownedredhead)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 11/28/2006 6:02:38 PM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Her belly?


Greetings Michael

If you are inplying she is under the bondage of her belly, why a master?  You have just made them quite irrelevant.

A Gorean man is always a Gorean man, he is called master by slaves because it is custom.  He is also a master if he owns slaves.  Yet, what it is important is that he is a Gorean man.  Property can not change him nor should it. 

As for slave like unowned women, yes, by defination they are just free.  Being allowed to act on their slave nature by portraying themselves as slaves is at the benevolance of free Gorean men.  It's is as simple as that.

IWYW

Jahna


_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to Webmaster60)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 11/28/2006 6:41:14 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7330
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Jahna,

I don't think most are getting it, I though have the advantage of being on an email list with you and you said something once that helped me add something together I had been wrestling with. The transitional part of females that is difficult for me to sometimes underdstand. As I mentioned in a previous post here, the feelings in the heart do not change but the application may. You also touch on another part of the philosophy that I believe in strongly and understand well I think, which is I am not defined by those around me, I am me and that is it. This is how it is with everyone and when they know inside what they are, so do those around them usually.

Orion

(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 11/28/2006 11:57:40 PM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1584
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings Michael....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Webmaster60

<snip>

But to some.. is a Master (like myself) without a slave, still a Master?
I contend yes.  Its not what I do.  Its who I AM.


No...you are not. You can be called Master as a courtesy title by Gorean's slaves, but unless there is something or someone you have mastered the answer is no, you are not and should not be called a Master. The second part of it goes along with Malkinius Rule of Nicks which says that if you have to say what you are in your nick, you aren't. The same thing goes for how you sign your posts. Take a look. All the people that are generally accepted as Gorean on this and any other list never use Master or Mistress when signing something. We often do use nicks but they are just names, and not everyone uses something other then their real names. I know of more and more people who are living as best they can as Goreans who are just using their real, legal, mundane names on their posts.

Just a few things for you to think about.

Be well....

Malkinius


_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

(in reply to Webmaster60)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 11/29/2006 3:20:06 AM   
unownedredhead


Posts: 498
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Yes the unowned slave is an oxymoron.  Yes, a slave proclaiming themselves slave is ineffectual and ridiculous.  It does take the hand of a Master to claim a slave.  We are not living in the same world  where a sugar plantation was worked by slaves who's very lives depended on the mercy of a Master.   A slave today is a volunteer.  Not only must a slave obey and be pleasing but there is no recourse if a Master dies or releases them.  They are just free.  How oxymoron is that? Slaves upset they are free...... have you ever heard anything so stupid???/!!!!

_____________________________

Kneeling trembling at your feet

(in reply to Webmaster60)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 11/29/2006 3:24:05 AM   
unownedredhead


Posts: 498
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Webmaster60
Can a slave be more, or less, under the domination of the influence of Norman's books, than a Master could be said to be?


NO! 


_____________________________

Kneeling trembling at your feet

(in reply to Webmaster60)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 11/29/2006 6:23:43 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Goreans,

Two things for a fellow Gorean, well three but I think Malkinius nailed the title thing. First, you showed honor in the way you chose to respond to my agressive post. (Nods w/ a smirk) I would also like to bestow thanks to you Mike. I appreciate the validation of your comments with supporting substance. They are now in effect debatable opinions as shown by Malkinius comments and those of the little redhead that is aching to feel a whip. I trust she will soon start talking with a greater degree of dignity and DAMN SOON. Girl your points are valid. You maintain a good degree intellegence, so consider my words carefully. Do not call out a Gorean man when exercising your opinion. Men will see to the contuct of men.Also a girl doesn't address a Gorean man as master because he owns her, she does it because it is our way. If you consider yourself other than Gorean, your credibility will be greatly hightened if you simply use the word Sir or another suitable sign of respect. I'm sure you want the men and others to actually read your comments. However if you want to snipe at the men like a vieled woman, then do so if unowned, but you might want to remove the kneeling signature block thing. (you see if a FW keeps pressing towards the front of a crowd as the pirates are plundering loot, it is quite possible as she presses to close she might end up stripped naked and collared. volluntarily or not. I not so long ago actually witnessed a collaring that taught a woman a great deal more than she bargined for....we men are watching) In any event, state yourself gracefully and you will earn the things that Jahna was describing. By the way Jahna. A most excellent post.

Live well Friends,

Bull

(in reply to unownedredhead)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 11/29/2006 8:51:02 PM   
bena


Posts: 27
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		My two cents worth:

Unowned female is not slave
Unowned female who behaves in a slavish manner may be treated like a slave.

Bena

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 11/29/2006 10:18:09 PM   
edana


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

A slave today is a volunteer.  Not only must a slave obey and be pleasing but there is no recourse if a Master dies or releases them.  They are just free.  How oxymoron is that? Slaves upset they are free...... have you ever heard anything so stupid???/!!!!


Greetings fellow redheaded one *grins

I am sorry for your suffering, and i do hope you are fulfilled in the near future.  

I wanted to make a comment about your rant here... I would not go so far as to say that a slave today is a vollunteer.  I suppose it may look that way to the ones watching the collaring.   But i can assure you that i had no clue what i was getting myself into.  Oh yes i asked tons-o-questions, and he answered them all prior to me begging him.  But, those are just words, and we all know how 'usless' those are.    The whole time i was knelt there i was working on my tactic to 'strike a bargain' with him.  Now two years later... i can't go. the chains are on my inside.  Do i want to run?  yes.  i do.  can i?  no.

When he pulls back the hedge and tells me to go, i peer into the dark and feel my female vulnerability and i can't run.

If i could i damn well would!  to eat what i want, sleep when i want, spend my own money when i want.  why would i be sad? 

Please understand what i am saying.  You girl are sad because you are still there looking out that hedge, you have no business being free. if you did, you would not feel the way you do.  Trust your own feelings, not those of others who are not close to you.  That is why you see me posting my experience and my feelings.  Those for me, and my slavery are what matter.   



_____________________________

In service,

edana

"Discipline turns talent into ability"

(in reply to unownedredhead)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 12/9/2006 2:07:11 AM   
unownedredhead


Posts: 498
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Edana, you seem to know what I feel.  I have been the slave of a Gorean Male.  As you must have guessed he died.  I now peek over the hedges, trying to see what is out there. Don't get me wrong, I am not stagnent in the real world.  I live my life and have great successess and failures like the rest of mankind.  But, in my heart I know who I am and what I would be best doing.  I hear the Masters on the site yell at me and tell me to not proclaim myself something that they have not decided I am.  So, I try to be quiet and watch.  I could learn a lot from the right Gorean household.  About patience and reigning in my physical heat.  Is there anyway your Master would let you talk to me?  I mean no harm just feel so lost. 
kneeling quiet as a mouse.


_____________________________

Kneeling trembling at your feet

(in reply to edana)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 12/9/2006 8:23:04 AM   
edana


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		hi redhead,

yes, you and i have permission to speak together.  i will send you a message on the other side with my contact details.

I am indeed looking forward to talking with you!

edana

_____________________________

In service,

edana

"Discipline turns talent into ability"

(in reply to unownedredhead)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 12/9/2006 11:53:15 AM   
noyeh


Posts: 501
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings fellow slaves,

Wonders what all the fuss is about a slave being considered a Free while uncollared. Way I see it. If a girl is unowned there is nothing wrong with being a Free. Never was. A girl can still be slave-hearted even if she is free. Way I see it she is someones potential future slave-girl. Because if she goes looking for what she needs. Eventually she will get what she asked for.....LOL.....So way I see it enjoy the freedom while you can. Once your owned. That is all bye-bye. Those  of you that are unowned slave-hearted Free Men and Women should enjoy freedom while you got it, once your slave fully you have no say or rights you give that up when you surrender fully to a Master/Mistress. Take it as a positive experience during your free time.. I say Men and Women because there are some Men out there that are slave-hearted too so I don't want to leave anyone out or be bias.



< Message edited by noyeh -- 12/9/2006 11:56:06 AM >

_____________________________

personal slave of Master Jeff the Seeker
His property slave slut and pet
His concubine/first girl of the House of the Seeker

noyeh-JtS-fg

(in reply to edana)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 12/9/2006 5:16:10 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal noyeh,

  Excellent, your master has a smart wench. It's as simple as what you just stated. Some women will always have the makings of a Free Companion. Others will always have the makings of the slave. Neither are better, they both have their place. When it comes to a slave I love the discription of the FW that while the pirates plundered the city of Victoria she kept moving forward in the crowd even when warned back. I would say that describes well the inner feelings and internal draw of the slave girl. I have no useful metaphors about free woman. Sorry about that. I do find them tollerable, most of the time.(smirks) Their great for making popcycles and icecubes.(I shouldn't be laughin now, but damn I can't help it)

Serve well,

Bull

(in reply to noyeh)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 12/10/2006 3:15:13 AM   
unownedredhead


Posts: 498
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Master Bull you have been more than patient with me.  Thank you.  I do appreciate it...I really do. My outburst are from the heart.  I will do my best to reel them back in for future reference.  There are just so few places I can honestly express how I feel.  I in now way mean any disrespect to this forum or the people in it.   I have been working out, redecorating and sewing to focus some of this untamed passion I feel.  I do appreciate your temerance Master Bull. 

dina


_____________________________

Kneeling trembling at your feet

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: if unowned is she still a slave? - 12/10/2006 4:02:01 AM   
SirDiscipliner69


Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: If a girl is unowned, is she still a slave?

Is an orange still orange in the dark?

Ross

Bon D' Age' : BDSM
http://tinyurl.com/ygblqt
Designermite :
http://tinyurl.com/ueov5
Soul of Motorcycle Art
http://tinyurl.com/ybg73a

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 180
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