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If never freed is she not still a slave,


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If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/12/2006 7:39:41 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal ,Goreans,

I recently posted the opposing issue, now the continuing point. This could be an issue with slaves not yet in a 24 7 or those that have evaded a relationship in anyway. The point I wish to address is. If a man owns a girl do to her submission to he, she then, in turn runs or willingly flees, reasons may vary, but none the less she runs and is not released.....Is she still a slave to him? Who is accountable? I have seen what happens in the novels, I read them too, but I'm talking about our own little earthly reality here.If I had a slave that came to be found by you, would you subtly claim her, or would you return her to the name on the collar so to speak? I will wait to make further response. I don't want to make further impressions upon others beliefs.

Live well,

Bull
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/12/2006 8:07:26 AM   
edana


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		**Posted by Leonidas (who forgot he was logged in as his kajira ---- again!)

She has to move back two spaces, loses a turn, and must draw one card from the "righteous retribution" pile.

A slave becomes a slave when she kneels and begs to be collared, and you place a collar on her.  If she decides one day that wasn't a good idea and hits the bricks, she has reclaimed her freedom and gone her merry way.  In your eyes she might be nothing but a run-away slave, and if she ever returned you might treat her as one.  If you belong to a community of men, they might also see her as a run-away, and be unwilling to treat her as anything else.  Her options would be limited within that community.  Out there in the wide world, she's free to do whatever she's big enough to do.  The only time her status as a "run away" would matter to her is if she decided she wanted to return to you, or to the community to which you belong.

The books present a fictional world where laws and customs are different from ours.  They don't provide an exact blueprint or set of "rules" for how to live as a Gorean here and now.  You have to take what you read in the books and ask yourself "what would a Gorean or colony of Goreans trapped here on earth do?".  In the scenario that you just gave the answer would most likely be to let the girl go, and consider it good riddance.  It would be dumb and shortsighted for a colony of Goreans to attract attention to themselves by trying to keep a slave who did not want to be kept.  There are more than enough girls around here who do want to be slaves for that to be prudent, or necessary.

< Message edited by edana -- 11/12/2006 8:10:12 AM >

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edana

"Discipline turns talent into ability"

(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/12/2006 8:23:45 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		great answer, I'll wait for others before commenting further.

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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/12/2006 8:24:51 AM   
Camerius


Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline 		Well, since we're here talking about consentual slavery, as we are on Earth and not on Gor, she, as such, have the "power" to end the slavery that she has been liveing under, just like we, as Free, can and will terminate ownerships of slaves for what ever reasons we might have for doing so.


Is she still an owned slave? Well, the first and obvious question is, WHY did she chose to do so, what are the motivation behind that choice she made? Was it out of selfpreservation, then I can see the "wisdom" of her choice in doing so, or is it just that she found out that the fantasy she had imagined when seeking the collar was different from the hard cold reality that she faces as a slave to a Gorean Free? 

The possabilities are many, as stated, but if one of the two in a consentual master/slave relationship determins to end that relationship, the ownership or belonging does so too, otherwise it wouldn't be consentual.

Next question as I see it is, if she still is owned by that master, and the answer is no by leaving that position on her own choice, she has herself decided that for what ever reason there is, good or bad, that that position has ended, and is therefor not owned anymore.

You can claim her sure but, and here is my question, why claim something that, by leaving you and your house, clearly states that she don't want that position any more?

All of this has given me, as I have first hand experience in this from a former slave I had in my collar and booted out the door, a very good reason as to be more carefull when I go look for a slave, as I want to make sure that the time and effort that I put into training and grooming a slave to become my kajira is met in the other end and not just gets a female that's turning tail because her wishes or demands/dreams aren't met, with me she's a slave and will be treated as such 24/7/365....

So, in short to sum your question up, no, she's not a slave anymore, as she, to her own accountability, have chosen not to be in such a postiton anymore, both failing as a slave, to you, but also as a slave as a whole.

The follow up question then is, can she then become a slave again to another man?  

Well, only herself and time can tell that....


Be well

Camerius




< Message edited by Camerius -- 11/12/2006 8:34:56 AM >

_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/12/2006 8:48:35 AM   
edana


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings

If it pleases the free this girl would offer the following...

In the book Slave Girl,  the newly captured girl (already struggling with her inner nature) attempts a daring escape, in her efforts she becomes caught in the thorned wall that was surrounding the camp.  Drusus finds her and opens the wall to her, bidding her to run.   The girl sees before her darkness and becomes frightened,  she decides to stay a slave. 

I know this accounting is entirely fictional, but i can tell you from personal accounting that this is a very real attempt in most any slaves struggle with her place.

I know that i myself and other girls have peered out that hedge many times, but once seeing the dark and scary place the world is for a slave without her Master, if she is indeed mastered, a girl will not be able to run, (or will not run for long) she will turn back and beg to be kept.

Why a girl might run...

Slaves are not cookie cut-outs

No two slaves are alike... each one can only be Masterd by a man who takes the time to look into that girl and really see who and what she is.  Even though she may hide her ashamed self, he must have the ability to stip her naked and see the depths of her.  Only then can he truely own her.  anythign less, and your chances of the slave running off to find a Master who can own her, grow. 






_____________________________

In service,

edana

"Discipline turns talent into ability"

(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/12/2006 8:54:45 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		once again edana, you bring credit upon your owner.

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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/12/2006 9:33:59 AM   
justinasamerk


Posts: 153
Joined: 8/1/2006
Status: offline 		This post hits more at  home  to a girls situation  then she likes to admit. She has been collared to a Master for 7 years, and well she at this time chose to end it. She asked for a release.  Does that mean she  is not a slave at  heart? Well others may judge her, but how can a slave be pleasing to a Master if she herself is not happy, nor is her service to him pleasing? 
In an odd way a miserable  slave does equal a miserable Master, her downwardness will effect her service to him, and ultimately he is not being pleased. Sometimes things dont work. In her case it didnt.  She needed to find the slave belly and find a Master who would harness that slave belly  within her, take control of her fire, and put her in her place....She  may have found that person, and is inthe process of learning.  
Yes she gave up a sure thing, a collar, a man whom she loved, 7 years of memories, but she no longer honors  his collar by wearing it.  Being granted this sense of freedom she can do two things, either move on as a Free woman or make the conscious choice in which she is doing..and hand my service, my obedience, and myself to another Master...
She is under consideration right now...This is reality, this isn't  legalities, any Man who respects himself as a Master is not simply going to place his name, his homestone, his faith  in a girl he doesnt know. She has to prove her sincerity and respect to him. If he is going to place a collar upon  her neck, she must provide exceptional service, and respect his name, for her actions are truly  a reflection of him. 
For now, she proves  herself as a slave to him, stripped of a name, stripped of rights, and slowly learning what he expects of a girl. She had her shot at freedom and in a transitional phase, can say she is once again Free...As a Free Woman..she makes the conscious choice of throwing herself down to his Feet. And that makes her smile..a peace is coming over her, and she is finding herself.

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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/12/2006 10:36:17 AM   
nikaa


Posts: 357
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		 
Within the books kajira / kajirus are simply property, like cattle.  Society as a whole embraced this idea. Laws enforced this idea. In our reality, society does not accept slavery; in fact slavery is an illegal institution.(After all we are talking about reality not role-play) Therefore those that desire to live within a gorean community or as slaves do so consensually. No one can force them to their knees, or force them to stay on their knees.
 
There are many reasons on both sides that cause the Free or slave to walk away from the situation.
 
As a community would you expect someone to stay even if staying could cost them their health (mental or physical) or even their life?
 As Free would you truly want to keep a slave who was forced to stay? Would you not desire a kajira / kajirus who burned to please, to serve, to honor you in all they did?

_____________________________

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Phoenix's Nika


The Cherokee legacy is that we are a people who face adversity, survive, adapt, prosper and excel.


Wakan Tankan Nici Un




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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/12/2006 11:18:43 AM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
If I had a slave that came to be found by you, would you subtly claim her, or would you return her to the name on the collar so to speak?


Greetings Master Bull,

Couldn't you claim her and send the Owner she ran away from some money? Offer to buy her?

well wishes
kisshou

(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/12/2006 12:11:32 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal kisshou,

Silly little wench, you made me chuckle. I suppose that is possible, but I am rather tight with my cash. I'll go ahead now and extend my reason for this post. I was hoping that to hopefully establish credibility for all Goreans, free and slave that we would see, that if a girl was a runaway, she would have to answer to all free in that reguard. A fickle little wench was unacceptable within our ranks and she should do as the girl justinasamirk did and beg release.

You see, it is a fact that slavery is consentual, we have established that, but look at the books for a guide to slavery, it is said in those that men believe girls should belong to a good number of men until she finds her love master. Now what is a good number and does it mean she has to belong to more than one. No, and the number it takes until she and the master find extreme satisfaction in her service and yes, love. You see I don't think a girl should to stay in a relationship where the master has become complacient and appathetic. I was speaking to a girl that isn't a gorean in any degree and she explained that very issue in her leaving the man she belonged to. I must assume that Goreans also can become disenchanted. In such cases though a girl surely will sour and become lost.

My intent that is a girl that has submitted to a gorean must in fact beg his release to move on. That would serve the credibility of the institution of gorean slavery a great deal. If a man lso was to on his accord of the mind to release a girl, should he not see to her finding a new home. In the novels you would at least drag her to the sales pavillion. Now I am obviously talking as it applies to offline experiences. Just one other reason I bring this up is a girl that belonged to a man I know one morning was gone as well as some of his valuables.  I wonder how many times she has done this under the presumption she was a kajira. She tarnishes the name kajira in her actions.

I'll allow this thread to develope a bit more now.

I wish you well,

Bull

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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/13/2006 5:34:08 AM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Master Bull,

This girl knows her response will bring out the
pfffffff this is earth,
this is consentual remarks

but oh well here goes....since a kajira is expected to be aligned with her Master in beliefs....

this girl knows full well...
should she ever decide

oh well gee being the kajira of a strict demanding by the books Gorean Master is much harder work than she wishes to put the effort into and she wants to go back to being a demanding bratty lil couch princess that gets her way when she wants

and she were to run from her collar

without begging release first

so that she could find a Master she could manipulate

Her Master, Lord Omega would surely announce to Goreans everywhere on each and every list

than the girl fyre RAN from her collar and she would be shamed and shunned by those that mean the most to her

she has no doubt she could find a man that would take her in regardless\that would not care about the ethics involved of her not being freed to receive another collar.....

but then she would not be living true to the Goren ideal

she will have lost all in the long run
and become miserable

because what drives a kajira to Owned by a Man is His strong and complete Mastery of her

if she can not live up to her Masters standards

she should never have begged to have been His in the first place

May she wish you well

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/13/2006 6:03:40 AM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		greetings,

I just kept thinking about cattle.

There are two pastures side by side. The pasture the cow is kept on the grass is sparce and the water is bad tasting. Right next door the pasture is lush and the water tastes like ambrosia.

Everyday the cow keeps wandering over to the lush pasture, starts out by nibbling at the grass and then comes to be fed by the thick full grasss.

What is each owners responsibility?

Why would the owner with the sparse pasture care enough to put up a fence when he couldn't care enough to keep his grass lush in the first place?

The owner of the lush pasture can keep shoo-ing the cow back but the cow will keep returning. Cows need to eat in order to live.

Is it wrong for the cow to want to survive and grow?

So eventually the owner of the lush pasture buys the cow.

Then the cow learns 'the grass is always greener on the other side'

well wishes
kisshou

(in reply to fyreredsub)
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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/13/2006 6:22:51 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal fyre,

The very answer I was looking for. Again you do Omega credit and be sure if he has a slave run and he let's it be known, I better not be one of her hopeful stops. Surely Goreans must live within all laws and I agree. No one will force a girl to remain. But, the community can govern it's population if it has common standards and principles. You hit the point I was leading to.Congrats little wench.


Tal kisshou,

I for one would welcome a hungry young heffer to my pasture...(grinz playfully) I would have to say I fancy english crossed heffers. That would range in all shades of the rainbow. The sweet meat of the pretty black Angus, The finely marbled meats of the red Hereford, and lest we forget that tastey french breed of the white hided Charlios. But, it would seem this grandson of a Deutsch immigrant would have to favor the finest beef with beer, the German bred Gelbvieh. So you see, just another reason I am the old Bull around here. (this is been an additional bit of Monday morning humor at my own expense for my Gorean Amigos. Look I do spanish as well.

I wish you all a fantastic week,

Bull

< Message edited by xBullx -- 11/13/2006 6:29:34 AM >

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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/13/2006 6:33:53 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 37484
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		LOL,

This is an apt analogy kiss, but there are cases of cows that seem to think the grass is greener on the other side, and quite often, one is discussing exceptions rather than the rule.

Nobody thinks the Callahan tunnel in Boston is fucked up until there is an accident or breakdown in there..........
It becomes a great monster to retrieve the POS from the tunnel.

Ron 

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For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/13/2006 6:56:16 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		i once read, on the site for Spiritual D/s Master/slave relationships based on Spirituality, for eamsple a scared hieracki, the Master is slave to the God(s) and serves them and the slave in turn serves the God(s) by serving his or her Master. Anway there it was spoken of becoming a slave as a sacred resposibility all the slave`s honor was to his or her Master and unless the slave`s life was treathend, the one that ran away would destroy their own honor and become like nothing. i know that slaves is not suposed to have honor in the Gorean lifestyle, but still, one can look at it that way, a slave that have sworn to serve somone and that then run from that responsibility has not only betrayed her Master, she has betrayed herself, has betrayed her inner being and that would shake a person wery deeply. 

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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/13/2006 10:08:03 AM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Master Bull,

This girl thanks you 

You sound like her Master with Your thinking on this matter.Master strongly believes girls that  run should be scorned from within the Gorean Community and not allowed to run amuck but this should not be confused with those that truly need refuge for whatever reason(thats a whole 'nother topic*grins*).

May she wish you well

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/22/2006 2:51:11 AM   
unownedredhead


Posts: 498
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		What if it is not "the grass is greener on the other side"?  What if a Gorean Master dies and leaves his slave all alone to fend for herself and raise his children?  What then?  She is slave but has no Master.  She did not run away.  She did everything she could do to still make him proud eventhough he was gone.  What then?  What is she then?


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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/22/2006 6:44:49 AM   
Vinslily


Posts: 11
Joined: 11/18/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Unownedredhead,

That isn’t running away from a collar then. Running away is the conscious thought that well I want out, but I don’t want to confront my owner. In the case you brought up you had no choice in the matter of the owner dieing.

Where a slave would be denounced as a runaway faker by most of the free if she runaway, a slave that was put into the position of caring for a dieing/passed on Master would most likely be helped and had assistance provided for her.

An owner passing on or even releasing you from the collar does not make you a runaway slave.

Just my two cents :)
lily

< Message edited by Vinslily -- 11/22/2006 6:46:13 AM >

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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/22/2006 7:31:33 AM   
SapphireHouse


Posts: 31
Joined: 11/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vinslily

Greetings Unownedredhead,

That isn’t running away from a collar then. Running away is the conscious thought that well I want out, but I don’t want to confront my owner. In the case you brought up you had no choice in the matter of the owner dieing.

Where a slave would be denounced as a runaway faker by most of the free if she runaway, a slave that was put into the position of caring for a dieing/passed on Master would most likely be helped and had assistance provided for her.

An owner passing on or even releasing you from the collar does not make you a runaway slave.

Just my two cents :)
lily
Exactly.

In the case of a Master's death, all that was His becomes either willed to Another or Freed.  i know that should my Master pass (*trembles with the dreadful thought, as i almost lost Him early this year*) i am to be willed to Another. 

Master and i have no Children, (i cannot breed, sadly), so that wouldn't be an issue.  i would hope that any Master who has Fathered Children would ensure Their care for the times to come.

No, a slave who has to suffer the devastation of her Master's death isn't a runaway.  she becomes property of Another by Will or is freed as far as i know, (of course, there may be others who know better than i).

Respectfully
babygirl[SirS]
House of Sapphire


_____________________________

Sapphire House:
Sir Steven
babygirl[SirS] - SLRN 070-042-204
cherub [MsN] - SLRN 227-950-468

"But Master! The pizzas were ALWAYS on the ceiling!"

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RE: If never freed is she not still a slave, - 11/22/2006 7:52:22 AM   
unownedredhead


Posts: 498
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		how would one determine who a slave is willed too?

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Kneeling trembling at your feet

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