RE: naturally d/s ? (Full Version)

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petdave -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 9:18:36 AM)

All through my school years, i would raid the public library for anything i could find about torture, interrogation, prisoner mistreatment, concentration camps, the Inquisition, escape artists, and so on... but of course, this was much healthier for a developing boy than if i had access to information about Safe, Sane, and Consensual BDSM [8|]

Ahh, Curious Punishments of Bygone Days... i should really buy a copy of that for old time's sake.

...dave



Lady Alaria -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 4:58:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria
You misunderstand me. My comment had nothing to do with how many people thought/think they were born to be submissive(occasionally, in kink, in the bedroom). It was the born to always submit, born to be a slave, deep submission, lifestyle 24/7 D/s stuff. "Born to be a slave". Not born somewhat more dominant or submissive. Nor born to enjoy D/s sexually.


Actually, i do understand, i just don't agree [:D]

...dave

Ok, boggled by ya then. All good.



Lady Alaria -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 5:04:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: onlythewindknows


NOW this could be one of those "fill in the blank" things, like when a person does not fill fulfilled until she discovers religion or he is unhappy until he starts mountain climbing or whatever. but i never felt so confident and focused until i gained this self-knowledge.



This is _exactly_ what I am trying to say. The girl who found religion and the man who started mountain climbing might say the same thing. They might say they were born to be whatever. In the case of the girl she might think _everyone_ was born to be a whatever. But it doesn't make it absolutely true.

A similar comment could be made by someone who found, as their fulfilling thing, something strictly modern. Like computer programming. But to say they were born to be one becomes more obviously questionable. If they had been born in a day without computers, would they have lived a life of pure misery? Or found something else they were 'born to be'?



Lashra -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 5:06:50 PM)

I have always been naturally Dominant and I make this known in my personal relationships. Though its kind of hard not to notice[:)]. I have never been a girly girl or submissive, I am not wired that way.

~Lashra



sleazy -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 5:07:19 PM)

Well a little close to home here, but here goes........

Way back almost as far as I can remember I have been interested in taking the upper hand, dominant role, call it what you will (danm I hate labels). I remember at a very young age using a scarf to tie a young female friend to a pole to "burn the witch":) then as I grew older seemed to pay far more attention to the tv when the leading lady was in a perilous situation and about to be tortured etc, and always felt like giving the "hero" a darn good  kicking for interrupting the fun.

Of course then there were the years of teenage doubts and feeling I was not particularly normal, followed by a fantastic relationship where I got to live out so many of those thoughts for real :)

Skip to today, recently walked out on a vanilla relationship because its not just a kink I like, but a basic part of me that needs feeding and nurturing just as much as any other part of me needs to be fed and kept happy.

As for nature v nurture, there was nothing at all in my home environment as a youngster that would have subconciously educated me to believe in such things, so I would have to say that in my opinion Im a "natural".



Lady Alaria -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 5:16:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalira

quote:

A submissive without a proper dominant is either a well-adjusted, equal member of society, or, well, a doormat(or something in between). *dons asbestos*

Hmm, now this struck the 'lets argue' chord with me [8D] First I would have to ask you what you consider to be a 'proper' dominant?


Okay, this wasn't the aspect I expected to have questioned. 'Proper' used here is simply a literary extra. It really means nothing and the phrase would probably have worked better without it. 'A girl without a proper umbrella is going to get wet walking in this rain', said to someone with no umbrella at all. It's a brit thing I think, inherited from parents.

quote:


And then what you consider to be a 'doormat'?

I am going to use daddysprop as an example. She has expressed often that 'she can not say no' ( much as Celeste as expressed also ), and yet, I would say that neither of them are doormats, in fact, I would go so far as to say that they are two very strong women who have Dominants who understand their particular needs and wants.

Not trying to flame, just trying to understand your words here.


'Doormat' was used intentionally. The point being I _don't_ think subs/slaves are doormats up until they reach the day they meet a Dom, fall in love and live happily(and kinkily) ever after. They may yearn for what is, after all, a _very_ common fantasy(even amongst children who grow up and are quite satisfied not being in D/s), but it needn't define who they are. Just what they want/need.

And someone who just can't say no, to anyone, seems a fairly good definition of a doormat. I don't think this defines Celeste or daddysprop in the slightest.



onlythewindknows -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 5:22:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria


quote:

ORIGINAL: onlythewindknows


NOW this could be one of those "fill in the blank" things, like when a person does not fill fulfilled until she discovers religion or he is unhappy until he starts mountain climbing or whatever. but i never felt so confident and focused until i gained this self-knowledge.



This is _exactly_ what I am trying to say. The girl who found religion and the man who started mountain climbing might say the same thing. They might say they were born to be whatever. In the case of the girl she might think _everyone_ was born to be a whatever. But it doesn't make it absolutely true.

A similar comment could be made by someone who found, as their fulfilling thing, something strictly modern. Like computer programming. But to say they were born to be one becomes more obviously questionable. If they had been born in a day without computers, would they have lived a life of pure misery? Or found something else they were 'born to be'?



in a different time - i probably would have been a nun.

i get it - really - we are scripted and defined to a great extent by our cultural environments and through our availible channels.

now on a side note, i've gotten into arguments with academics about the idea of certain things being "natural" (no surprise: they are anti and i am pro.) it would be tricky for any academic, especially female, to be on this unpopular "nature" side of the argument because being able to prove "anti-nature" is a lynchpin to being able to gain gender equality in the academic work world.



Lady Alaria -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 5:24:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

As for nature v nurture, there was nothing at all in my home environment as a youngster that would have subconciously educated me to believe in such things, so I would have to say that in my opinion Im a "natural".


Has never needed to be for the nurture aspect to be quite viable. Very innocuous early childhood events can create strange results when echoed across the years and filtered through an experience of life. We start with some aspects, and these become tendencies, and these become desires, and these become behaviors. If modern psychology is correct.

I tend to think i was born this way. This morning, when i woke up. Tomorrow, I will be born as something different.



Lady Alaria -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 5:27:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: onlythewindknows
in a different time - i probably would have been a nun.


In a different time, you probably would have been a completely different person, defined, in part at least, by her times. What sort of person, well, only the wind knows.



sleazy -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 5:34:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria


quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

As for nature v nurture, there was nothing at all in my home environment as a youngster that would have subconciously educated me to believe in such things, so I would have to say that in my opinion Im a "natural".


Has never needed to be for the nurture aspect to be quite viable. Very innocuous early childhood events can create strange results when echoed across the years and filtered through an experience of life. We start with some aspects, and these become tendencies, and these become desires, and these become behaviors. If modern psychology is correct.

I tend to think i was born this way. This morning, when i woke up. Tomorrow, I will be born as something different.


I can see where you are coming from there (I think). However no matter how much I try to be something, even if I give it my all, somethings I just never could be. Many years of trying like hell to be vanilla have proved impossible, no matter how much I wanted it to be so, I suspect the same inabilty of this leopard to change his spots would apply to many other things too. I doubt very much I will wake up any day and suddenly decide I actually do like the taste of lager after all :)

Somethings are just too deeply ingrained to change I suspect. Somethings I suspect are just there, in the make up of our heads and emotions, whatever the root cause or reasoning behind them. To head back to that very first experience with the "witch" despite trying to play the game with each of the participants in different roles, it always reverted to the same people acting the same characters, even as mere children we all seemed to know that we felt happiest and most comfortable acting a certain way.



MadamShy -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 5:38:55 PM)

I was just thinking about this ... how I was a Dominant sadist 

younger I always played queen .. when I got old enough ... i'd dare and talk  the boys into to pissing on the neighbors Electric horse fence to watch them scream in pain lol ...




onlythewindknows -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 5:39:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria

quote:

ORIGINAL: onlythewindknows
in a different time - i probably would have been a nun.


In a different time, you probably would have been a completely different person, defined, in part at least, by her times. What sort of person, well, only the wind knows.


well if you want to get that esoteric in a different time i probably would have been Alexander the Great or a Victorian noblewoman or a poisonous toadstool.

i still feel there are innate things to a person's internal make-up.



Lady Alaria -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 5:46:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: onlythewindknows

well if you want to get that esoteric in a different time i probably would have been Alexander the Great or a Victorian noblewoman or a poisonous toadstool.

i still feel there are innate things to a person's internal make-up.



Ok, that got a good laugh.

Innate things to who we are, perhaps. Those same things being innate to who we were born? Not so sure of that. People can and do change. Psychological conditioning can create some startling results.



Lady Alaria -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 6:07:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

I can see where you are coming from there (I think). However no matter how much I try to be something, even if I give it my all, somethings I just never could be. Many years of trying like hell to be vanilla have proved impossible, no matter how much I wanted it to be so, I suspect the same inabilty of this leopard to change his spots would apply to many other things too. I doubt very much I will wake up any day and suddenly decide I actually do like the taste of lager after all :)

Somethings are just too deeply ingrained to change I suspect. Somethings I suspect are just there, in the make up of our heads and emotions, whatever the root cause or reasoning behind them. To head back to that very first experience with the "witch" despite trying to play the game with each of the participants in different roles, it always reverted to the same people acting the same characters, even as mere children we all seemed to know that we felt happiest and most comfortable acting a certain way.


Okay, so now I'm going to talk about psychology and conditioning. Please forgive my waxing pedantic(as if I wasn't already).

First off, if we are going to look at this from a rationalistic pov(which I prefer not to do), one can look to identical twins. There is a tendency in identical twins to have one be more dominant than the other. Often notably so. Despite identical genetics, and a very similar upbringing, they can often end up with quite different tastes and personalities. Which i equate to very different responses to subtly different experiences.

Second, there is conditioning. It has been discovered(and exploited by clever dominants) that the human psyche is pretty mutable. With the proper(to the individual) outside influences, it is often possible to bring a person to want, even to need, something they never had any interest in before. Even possible(though far more difficult) to make them _not_ want or need something that one wanted/needed before(usually via transference).

Conditioning is fun, and I use it in my domination all the time.

I can cite some resources, if it is necessary.



RibbonsAndCurls -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 6:17:35 PM)

Honestly, I was very surprised when I found out I was a sub. All my life I have been a strong, outgoing person and constantly in control of my life. I was even a Domme for two years before I met a wonderful man.. We started off vanilla and somehow, over three years, he managed to bring out my true feelings. Apparently they were just hiding, as I was afraid of being hurt by letting somebody else be in control.. Now, I'm with my second Daddy and I couldn't be happier.  So really, I think it's the experiences one has that helps them lean one way or another.



sleazy -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 6:51:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria
First off, if we are going to look at this from a rationalistic pov(which I prefer not to do), one can look to identical twins. There is a tendency in identical twins to have one be more dominant than the other. Often notably so. Despite identical genetics, and a very similar upbringing, they can often end up with quite different tastes and personalities. Which i equate to very different responses to subtly different experiences.



OK, who has been dredging round in my head?:)

That earliest experience actually involved twins (damn what a fantasy that would be now im much older and have a vague idea what im really up to [;)])

There was always me and twin A inflicting on twin B, no matter how many times we tried changing around this was how we always ended up playing our games. To perhaps really put the cat amongst the pigeons, none of us were older than 6!



Daddysredhead -> RE: naturally d/s ? (11/23/2006 8:44:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RibbonsAndCurls

Honestly, I was very surprised when I found out I was a sub. All my life I have been a strong, outgoing person and constantly in control of my life.

I was afraid of being hurt by letting somebody else be in control.


I agree with these two points where I am concerned.  I grew up in a traditional family and then decided that the thought of being a submissive woman irritated the hell out of me.  The thought never crossed my mind.  I have always been the "leader" type in my circle of friends, the one people tended to ask for advice, etc.  I often "ran" my relationships as I wanted them to go.  It wasn't until being the "go-to" person in my marriage for many years that I started to feel worn down and irritated by having to be the "strong one with the answers, deciding vote, etc." that I just wanted someone else to take the reins.

When I met Daddy, I was coming to terms with that personal revelation and it was something we talked about when He and I discussed why I was in the middle of a divorce.  I had never heard of BDSM, but He had [:)]... and was able to channel my desires into my role as His girlfriend, later His sub, and finally His slave... as He wishes me to be. 

For me, being submissive is completely a choice.  If I don't want to be, I am not.  I slip very easily back into the leadership role, pretty bossy, and all that.  Thus, my sig. line...   [;)]



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