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Gorean Standards? - 12/1/2006 8:30:12 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Goreans,

I have been pondering on a subject that has long been debated within Gorean circles and time and again it is chastised or seen as impossible to accomplish. I have my thoughts on why, but men seem bent on having no one tell them any given standards (not rules or laws) for Gorean behavior and or manners. Now there is always the ones that our mothers hold us too. But within our philosophy it seems it should be important to have practical standards of conduct, as well as standards of community and whatever standards it takes to maintain an efficient society. Now this is in reference to living Goreans, obviously I could give a whoopity shit about role play interaction. But it seems to me that if I was to have an open gathering say at a semi private camping area, there should be in fact an acceptable code of conduct. The books describe ethos and such but to have it drawn into an acceptable guide that all can live within seems to me important. Assuming that have a community of Gorean that can interact at anytime outside of cyberspace is important. In saying community I am referring to a social group, whether they live near eachother or not. The Ren Folk would surely have standards, I know the munches even have set rules. It would seem to me that we could and maybe should have standards of conduct that extend beyond just set rules for individual Gatherings. I have over the past several months witnessed a good number of men and sluts that would certainly be welcome at my gathering. (It’s planning may be altered due to a wedding of a couple Goreans) I know that I enjoy nothing more than when I get together with my Gorean brethren. It does seem that getting to know established values, and social standards would increase the ease to which we interact and to head off any simply solved disputes prior to coming together. Now, when I have been to gatherings, we almost certainly have a mix of lifestyles. We do however interact quite well and have a great time. I have been to gatherings though where they seemed to be winging it. No real idea on how they should conduct their event. This is where I believe a consistent set of standards would actually assist Goreans in starting to have more gatherings and to increase the fellowship of likeminded men. It seems to me when you read through threads that most of us that have been into this or any length of time at all, think concurrently. Our ideals mirror one another, so we would most likely be able to walk into one another’s function and maintain some form of social acceptability. I’m not really interested in a set of rules or a Gorean High Counsel, hell we need to be able to get more than small groups together for weekend feasts to have a need for anything so grandiose.  In this thread I am just asking what ideas all of you would have pertaining to your idea of what Gorean standards of community and conduct pertain to you, pertain to those around you and what difficulties you have faced when just not knowing for sure what the hell you were supposed to be doing. I believe many remain in the shadows due to a fear of looking silly, a fear of failing in the eyes of others simply because their not sure what their really supposed to behave like in the company of real people. So I’m not purposing anything, I’m simply curious, you see I intend on creating a community (not that we have to live in the same building or area) where there are enough practicing Goreans with the values we love, that we aren’t simply seen as a sex cult or a spin on BDSM. If Mormons, Amish, and Mennonites are considered practical lifestyles I see no reason why Goreans can live as such. Anyway your turn to talk, I’m sure you’ll have tons to say. Do try and keep it positive.

Live well,

Bull
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RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/1/2006 8:51:14 AM   
bena


Posts: 27
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Bull,

I was just talking to a friend on the phone, in fact probably at the same time as you were writing this.  We were discussing a formal dinner we had attended and how it seemed as if no one had any idea what proper protocol was.  Had it only been one or two who seemed like fish out of water it wouldn't have been too bad as they could have winged it but it seemed like the majority didn't know basic things like when to start eating, what utensil to use, etc.  I made the comment that it would have been nice had some kind of guidelines been available prior to the event for those unfamiliar with formal dining.

I think what you are suggesting here is something along the same lines and I think that there is a place for it.  The first thing that came to mind when I read your post was that a guideline on how to treat another's slave would be welcomed.  Having never been to a Gorean gathering, I am ignorant in this area but, were I a man, I would like to know ahead of time if there is generally a 'no touch' rule or if it is appropriate to give a girl a light touch of thanks if she has just brought you a coffee, etc.

Bena

(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/1/2006 10:09:02 AM   
Anarrus


Posts: 475
Joined: 11/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,

This is an interesting topic you've brought up for discussion.
As much as the Gorean is wrought with high protocol, I think most of it is simply very common sense. I think RESPECT is very key in any social gathering. One respects the home the home they are in, they respect their host and others attending the gathering. One respects the property of others, either living or inanimate and the boundaries set for that property by the owner.

We all seem to know the tenets of Gorean life well enough that it should be a simple thing to show respect. If in doubt, it's neither silly nor stupid to ask a question to clarify anything.

No one should be afraid of looking silly or of failing in the eyes of others if they simply are themselves. I'd like to think that most of us are just normal people who for the most part behave very normally around others and in social situations.
Add to that the basics of Gorean protocol and everything should fall into place.

Iwyw

Anarrus

_____________________________

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."...Goethe
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(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/1/2006 10:11:56 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		I've had gatherings at my house for a long, long time.  Edana has served at several.  Gorean gatherings are rather like ancient symposia (drinking, talking, slave girls serving and dancing).  It's rare in my experience that there will be any misunderstanding about protocol and etiquette among men who are reasonably well read (meaning the Gor books).  If you have some rank newcommers who are more schooled in BDSM culture, just councel them before hand that you'll expect that they listen and learn more than they talk and presume upon your hospitality.  It has always worked for me.

If you have any specific questions about protocol or etiquette when Goreans gather, I'll address them as best I can.

I wish you well, Bull

Leonidas


_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/2/2006 9:49:08 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 1488
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Tal Bull
 
Yes, I do think you have a point and I can see much debate on this.  As a Participate of Renaissance Faires as well, we do have are Norms, standards of conduct.   Any Gor gathering should have a set of Norms or Standards, I sugguest the bases for those be Honor and Respect, these being the highest qualities in Gorean Cultural.
 
I wish you well
 
Nosathro

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

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RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/3/2006 10:19:56 PM   
KajiraResources


Posts: 177
Joined: 1/28/2006
Status: offline 		Tal List

I see this sort of thing as a series of questions where the same series of answers is not going to work more than once.

High protocol is something that some people practice every day, day in and day out to the point that they deminish the point of it being a seperate special status.  It is like the kid who gets a reward for not being bad, what the hell is the point in that. 

Many houses have a protocol which is like a respectful vanilla household of the 50's.  In my opinion this is a good practice for everyday Goreans. It is at least realistic especially when raising children, it seperates us from the heathens and doesn't make us snobs.

Durring certain times when discression is a key the protocols are low or lifted.  The man who forces his lifestyle down the neighbors throat because he has a right to live his way is a fool.  Discression and practice of it, should be of greater import than protocol.  The less we force others to deal with us the better the odds are we can live our lives as we choose.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Jarl Torvald

_____________________________

Colorado's Home Stone

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coloradohomestone/

"Do not ask the wise man how to live, for if he knows, he will know he cannot tell you. If you would learn how to live, do not ask how to live but, instead, proceed to do so

(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/4/2006 8:06:21 AM   
ShreveportMaster


Posts: 898
Joined: 10/6/2004
From: Dallas, Tx
Status: offline 		 Tal Bull,
As far as gatherings go, it depends largely on the intention of the gathering. If it is simply a social, then things will be kept very laid back. As far as treatment of slaves go, a girl who is not actively in service to another may be utilized to get you a drink, food, etc. A hug is never considered inappropriate, nor is a kiss on the head (when you're My size, that's the easiest place to reach anyway) but groping the property of another, without their specific permission is at best considered in very poor taste. There will be very little of a lascivious nature at such an event. On the other hand, if it is done as a "tavern night" or similar type of event it's understood to be more of an adult natured get-together. Think the difference between a family restaurant, and a Sports bar. Both have food, drink, conversation, etc. Both have a given set of norms, the norms are not identical, as the context of the participants is not identical. Conduct such as flirting/semi sexual joking and teasing of the girls working in the bar is not only perfectly acceptable, it's expected. The same is not true with the waitresses at Golden Corral.
I almost collared a girl once who regularly served at events in the Dallas area. It was stated clearly beforehand that girls who came to those events would be expected to serve in whatever capacity the Men desired, whether that was serving food and drink, a back rub, someone to sit at their feet, or on their lap, or sexually, unless they were owned, and restricted from such by their Masters. There were no shortage of girls there who wished to serve in any capacity, and the events have been going on for years, I have never heard of a problem with them. (I have never attended one Myself, the guests are those in the D/FW area, and I now live in Louisiana) It's simply a matter of making everything known upfront.
As far as a general rule goes, "if you don't want someone doing it with your property, in your living room, don't do it elsewhere with someone elses" seems to work pretty well.

                                                             I wish you well,
                                                                                    Shreve

_____________________________

"And to sooth the Bosk, there was found a Singing Cowboy. To soothe the Cowboy, a kajira is needed."

Riders of Gor
Book 37, Pg 298 ;-)

(in reply to KajiraResources)
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RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/4/2006 4:05:33 PM   
nikaa


Posts: 357
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		Master Bull,
 
There is a large Gorean community within the Las Vegas area, in fact many live within a private gated community. They have a home owners association,the difference between this home owners association and "typical home owner association" is they are more concerned with the fact that home owners are gorean men and women and that they are living by the gorean philosophies.
 
They have a list of set standards that each home owner (household) must adhere to. When I was there several years ago the community was flourishing but like any community, it had it's issues,however; without their set standards the community would not have  survived yet alone grown. 
 
Edited to add: Regardless of the group or setting without rules or standards there is only chaos in my eyes and who can truly strive or grow in such an enviroment?

 

< Message edited by nikaa -- 12/4/2006 4:06:58 PM >

_____________________________

Blessed Be,

Phoenix's Nika


The Cherokee legacy is that we are a people who face adversity, survive, adapt, prosper and excel.


Wakan Tankan Nici Un




(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/4/2006 4:19:40 PM   
Kalira


Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline 		~~ general reply ~~

My best friend is a Gorean Slave; we have known each other for 30 years. When she first met her Master, I drove to Tennessee to see them. After the weekend was over, her Master told me straight up that I was not welcome to come back until I learned to show some respect for the rules that he had in place for the house.

I spent 2 months stewing over his 'you are not welcome here'; going between the how dare he, and the well fuck him then stages.

Once I had calmed down and actually thought about what he said, and thought back over the weekend, I began to see where...ok...yes, he was right...I was pretty umm...disrespectful  It was not intentional though lol.

My friend and I, ever since we were kids, had a habit of talking over each other. Both of us would be talking at the same time, answering each other, and asking other questions...we would be able to do this without thinking. Without thinking, I had done the same with him, not even realizing that my friend was NOT doing it.

So, after getting up my courage, I called him and apologized, and asked if I could please visit again; and would he please be kind enough to give me a list of the rules that were in place in house in regards to visitors  It was a huge learning experience; but it also taught me that there is nothing that can not be achieved when the parties involved want something to work out well.

Any kind of gatherings, picnics, visits to homes, etc...it does not matter who you are; you are always taught to respect the owners of the home, or the givers of the party ( for want of a better word ) Basic manners often come very much in handy at such situations.

For Goreans, it is my understanding that the 'basic set of manners' are pretty much adhered to by everyone; with extra rules being put in place for each individual's own personal home. I would think that the same would apply to public gatherings; you have a set of basic rules that must be adhered to.

Just my opinion though.

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

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RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/5/2006 11:52:53 AM   
gemy


Posts: 107
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline 		Master Bull:   this girl belongs to a group on yahoo that is r/t Goreans who have an online forum to talk and meet and in no way role play.  they are planning a gathering in april and this one hopes to attend.  however, being uncollared, gem was very nervous as to what would be expected of her.  the Master who runs the group and other Masters generally have informed this girl that she will know, as will the Masters and their FC and slaves what is and is not OK generally ,,,, most have been Gorean all their lives so do not question, but ones such as gem and a few Others will have things explained

perhaps it would be the hosting Master(s)' responsibility to let others know the basic rules that may not be simply "known," such as what may be done with unowned kajiras *grinz, which was of great interest to this one!  lol

(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/5/2006 12:41:01 PM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings gemy,

This one is familiar with what you refer to.
If her mind doesn't fail her the rules were posted awhile back

wishing you well

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to gemy)
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RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/5/2006 1:12:33 PM   
gemy


Posts: 107
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline 		**blushes  omgosh fyre, yes they were!  gem totally forgot ***smacks her head*** sheesh!

**a-hem and,,, errrr,,, and changing the subject ~~~ which just goes to show that this girl was making a good guess about the Master(s) in charge letting people know ahead of time,,,,,,,, **giggles

(in reply to fyreredsub)
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RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/5/2006 1:16:40 PM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		greetings gemy,

ah okay
this one just thought perhaps you had joined the group after the fact

wsihing you well

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/6/2006 9:40:58 AM   
SapphireHouse


Posts: 31
Joined: 11/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nikaa

Master Bull,
 
There is a large Gorean community within the Las Vegas area, in fact many live within a private gated community. They have a home owners association,the difference between this home owners association and "typical home owner association" is they are more concerned with the fact that home owners are gorean men and women and that they are living by the gorean philosophies.
 
They have a list of set standards that each home owner (household) must adhere to. When I was there several years ago the community was flourishing but like any community, it had it's issues,however; without their set standards the community would not have  survived yet alone grown. 
 
Edited to add: Regardless of the group or setting without rules or standards there is only chaos in my eyes and who can truly strive or grow in such an enviroment?

 
greetings :)

Master instructed me to ask you about more information regarding the homeowner's association you spoke of.  Is there a way that He could get more info about that?  He wishes to investigate it further.

Thank you :)
babygirl[SirS]
firstgirl
House of Sapphire


_____________________________

Sapphire House:
Sir Steven
babygirl[SirS] - SLRN 070-042-204
cherub [MsN] - SLRN 227-950-468

"But Master! The pizzas were ALWAYS on the ceiling!"

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RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/7/2006 3:54:07 AM   
nikaa


Posts: 357
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		babygirl,
 
I'm not sure what information he would like.
He can contact me via CollarMe e-mail I will answer his questions to the best of my ability.
 
 
 

_____________________________

Blessed Be,

Phoenix's Nika


The Cherokee legacy is that we are a people who face adversity, survive, adapt, prosper and excel.


Wakan Tankan Nici Un




(in reply to SapphireHouse)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/7/2006 10:31:30 AM   
Roguenc


Posts: 5
Joined: 12/8/2004
Status: offline 		Tal All

Respect, Honor, Truth, Integrity, Accountability, are to me all that are must's if you are to be gorean. You must show respect, Honor those around you, be truthful in act and deed, for each of us, do not have to like the other, to show those things. Remember Goreans do not suffer liars gracefully, neither do we, allow our honor to be impinged.

IWYW

Zarius

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Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/7/2006 10:59:31 AM   
SapphireHouse


Posts: 31
Joined: 11/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nikaa

babygirl,
 
I'm not sure what information he would like.
He can contact me via CollarMe e-mail I will answer his questions to the best of my ability.
 
 
 
Thank you. :)

_____________________________

Sapphire House:
Sir Steven
babygirl[SirS] - SLRN 070-042-204
cherub [MsN] - SLRN 227-950-468

"But Master! The pizzas were ALWAYS on the ceiling!"

(in reply to nikaa)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/10/2006 7:59:58 AM   
ygraine


Posts: 674
Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline 		I agree.  It is entirely possible to be Gorean in every situation.  Respect, defference, knowing one's place....service....all very easy without swanning around in silks and veils and such.  I do think it is a good idea to set expectations before a gathering so people know what to do.  I have been at high protocol gatherings that were not Gorean at all.  It is what is inside that counts.

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RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/10/2006 6:30:11 PM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		Bull,

No offense intended, but I fail to see where any 'special' codes or standards would be expected?  When someone is in my home, they have an obligation to be respectful.  I have an obligation to be a host.  If I meet someone on a street corner or in the middle of the woods, we still have social and legal constraints. 

If people wish to hold themselves to a higher degree of conduct, that's admirable.  All of us have people in our lives who hold themselves to lesser standards of conduct - and we usually avoid them whenever possible.

Essentially, in the US there's no real legal basis to hold someone to Gorean standards beyond explusion from a private club.  Gorean groups would have no more right to beat or rape a slave than anywhere else (and would likely enjoy extra attention from local law enforcement to boot.)

This may seem a bit off topic, but as I understand your statement, the issue is focused on maintaining Gorean standards of conduct.  This comes from establishment of standards (I've never seen five Goreans sit and agree on exactly what is, and isn't Gorean) and then enforcement of standards in a legal and socially acceptable fashion (keep in mind that while Goreans often times see themselves in a light outside of normal society, they're still part of it - and bound to adhere to it's restrictions.)

In your case, you're considering establishing a Gorean community.  Generally speaking, whoever starts such group has the unlucky role of benevolent dictator.  In the beginning, it'll be up to you to decide what is, and isn't, Gorean - and what to do about it from there.  As long as you avoid extremes and don't break any local laws, you probably won't have any trouble finding people of similar minds and values.

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"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

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RE: Gorean Standards? - 12/10/2006 10:17:32 PM   
KajiraResources


Posts: 177
Joined: 1/28/2006
Status: offline 		Voltare,

This is a joke in a way,  If she is there and has acknowleged why and what may happen then she has expressed concent.  Like at a swing club, there is no date rape happening there.

Gorean men who actually are Gorean and have standards don't rape women. I know the "I practice 99% of the philosophy" and rape is natural arguements are out there but, usually it is all talk, by idiots,  who don't know anybetter. When it is not it is a predator taking advantave of the association people make with the terms Gorean and honorable.

Standards are set by me in my environment, and by you in yours, any other way would be less than gorean

Jeffrey      

_____________________________

Colorado's Home Stone

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coloradohomestone/

"Do not ask the wise man how to live, for if he knows, he will know he cannot tell you. If you would learn how to live, do not ask how to live but, instead, proceed to do so

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 20
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