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RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:14:45 PM   
Lady Alaria


Posts: 160
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline 		Sorry, should have been more clear.

I wasn't intending that KoM sounded dull, just that that level of play sounded dull to me. Not that I don't love playing with people that I know well and love and trust, just that I am unwilling to limit myself to -only- them.

No offense was intended.

Edited to add that, barring the limiting of play to only those whom you have built up a phenomenal amount of trust with, safewords are nice. As I said to begin with, they may not be necessary once a deep relationship is formed, and I suppose they aren't too vital if you take the whole thing very, very, very slowly.

< Message edited by Lady Alaria -- 12/12/2006 4:18:05 PM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:18:02 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3231
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria

Wow.

Have to say, that all sounds very dull.


That is your opinion; however I don't think that anyone who has seen my Lord play with me or others would use the word "dull".  In fact, his plays tend to be the most watched just about anywhere he plays.

quote:

Waiting till you know each other really well?


That is not what I said.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to Lady Alaria)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:20:11 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria


quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
In my experience, actually getting to know each other, learning a little bit about each other, taking things at a pace that is good for both people creates a more secure environment. A word does not.

Knight's kyra


Wow.

Have to say, that all sounds very dull.

Waiting till you know each other really well? That can take years. I've actually found, for myself, that once I know a person a bit, playing with them can be one of the -best- ways to build trust. And yeah, that's dangerous. So are interstates. For one, I have airbags, the other I got safewords(and condoms), and neither keeps me safe. Nobody gets outa this alive though.


Of course getting to know the person that you are about to allow to tie you up and torture you is just silly advice and could lead to boring encounters. Meeting people on the fly and trusting them with your life can be sooooo much more exhilarating! Suggestion on a good place to meet would be your local prison. You could stand outside the gate and wait for the new releases. You know damn well they are going to be horny, willing and ready for some new adventure. Just make sure you have your safe word agreed upon.

intended as humor only

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 12/12/2006 4:21:10 PM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Lady Alaria)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:23:17 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 6434
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Yes, we do seem to be very close in thought on this. There are a number of us. What I don't understand though is that when we voice our opinions on it, it seems to be very threatening to some and generally upends the collective apple cart. I believe that over the course of many threads we have given solid and valid reasons that support why we personally believe the way we do. I don't remember any of us ever saying that this is the only way to do it, nor do I remember any of us warning others that people who do use safewords are dangerous people to be avoided at all cost....yet, those of us who don't choose to use them are often tagged with exactly those kinds of labels.

Good thing we are masochists eh?


I often wonder if the ones SM experience actually contributes to the narrowness of ones views on play.  It has been my experience of individuals that play OR have witnessed repeatedly play at a more intense level have a more informed and thoughtful opinion on play in general.  We often make judgements soley based on our experiences.  If we never experience a particularly step it becomes very difficult for a person to appreciate certain ideals and concepts.

It is difficult in a online forum to really assess how much or types of experience a person has.  But, I find that those who's opinions and judgements are more thoughtful and open-minded will have a more experiences or at least made greater efforts in considering a particular thought or concept.  It is common that many speak a particular opinion or judgement but instead of it being based on appropriate and significant experience, it is based on personal beliefs and values.  Unfortunately, many called it based on experience and not on their beliefs and values.  Of course their is also those that have one experience and choose to make judgements and opinions well beyond the context of the actual experience.

I trust that in time individuals that gain enough actual experience or put enough effort into consideration to specific thoughts will find that their orginally narrowed judgements will give way to a more open-minded considerations.



_____________________________

Knight of Mists

"Respect.... It is the ability to see people as they are, to be aware of their unique individuality" Eric Fromm

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:28:06 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3231
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Having a safe word in place is not the same as not trusting or not knowing your partner.


And NOT having a safeword in place is not the same thing as being dangerous and someone to avoid.

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:30:55 PM   
Lady Alaria


Posts: 160
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

That is your opinion; however I don't think that anyone who has seen my Lord play with me or others would use the word "dull". In fact, his plays tend to be the most watched just about anywhere he plays.

As I said, it might make a great show, but it's not the same as primal. I don't know though, I've never seen either of you play. If it's techniquely superb but lacking in passion, I'd find it dull no matter how pretty. But it' quite possible you have a fair amount of fire. You're communication was built of gradually and gently to the point where intensity felt safe I am assuming. Not my kind of game.

And as I mentioned in afterthought, the play in a deeply committed relationship is not what I find (d)ull, just the notion of limiting oneself to -only- that, ever.

I guess it would be best to say that safewords are vital to primal play -aside- from in a long term, deeply trusting, well-established relationship where a huge amount of effort has been put into creating a space of safe communication. For me, I still can't picture really letting myself go as a top though, without that safety switch. Maybe your Lord doesn't believe in the Dom/me ever losing control though.....

quote:


That is not what I said.

Knight's kyra


No?
Sorry, I misunderstood this then:

quote:


In my experience, actually getting to know each other, learning a little bit about each other, taking things at a pace that is good for both people creates a more secure environment. A word does not.


Elaborate?

Respectfully,
Alaria


-edited for typo....full--->dull major change in meaning of the sentence.

< Message edited by Lady Alaria -- 12/12/2006 4:34:41 PM >

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:31:27 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 6434
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha

There is a huge difference to repsonding in play in a primal or animalisitic way and being disobedient, rude and bratty on a constant basis.


This is a very important point.... As someone that enjoys alittle of the more primal nature of play.... I don't feel that priaml behaviors driven by reactions to what I do are considered to be disobedient.  I find that I take some mild enjoyment from the primal reactions... I assure you that I don't find enjoyment from disobedience.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 12/12/2006 4:42:19 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

"Respect.... It is the ability to see people as they are, to be aware of their unique individuality" Eric Fromm

(in reply to akisha)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:39:22 PM   
Lady Alaria


Posts: 160
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha

There is a huge difference to repsonding in play in a primal or animalisitic way and being disobedient, rude and bratty on a constant basis.


This is a very important point.... As someone that enjoys alittle of the more primal nature of play.... I don't feel that priaml behaviors driven by reactions to what I do are considered to be disobedient. I find that I take some mild enjoyment from the primal reactions... I sure you that I don't find enjoyment form disobedience.



I got the impression that the OP was talking about play that had no element of obedience at all. Not brattiness, just no D/s. An entirely egalitarian relationship on basic power issues with wild primal SM dominance play sexuality.

Or that's how I took it. Could be way off.

Some people play that way, some don't.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:41:39 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 6434
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria


quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
In my experience, actually getting to know each other, learning a little bit about each other, taking things at a pace that is good for both people creates a more secure environment. A word does not.


Wow.

Have to say, that all sounds very dull.

Waiting till you know each other really well? That can take years.


It could take years... for some it is much shorter.  Seems you have tunnel vision on equating 'getting to know someone as taking alot of time' 

Maybe you should expand you narrowed perceptions to understand getting to know someone has nothing to do with time.  It a question of the Quality of knowing a person.





_____________________________

Knight of Mists

"Respect.... It is the ability to see people as they are, to be aware of their unique individuality" Eric Fromm

(in reply to Lady Alaria)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:42:08 PM   
alandraofMists


Posts: 187
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
Then there is also the times that a bottom becomes non-verbal; how are they going to use their safeword then?  It would be very dangerous if a top was relying on a bottom to safeword when things got bad rather than relying on their own judgment and skill.


quote:

  ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
When a submissive silenced there are signals. I favor holding a bell. When the bell is dropped, it makes noise signaling a problem. If you wish to play bound and gagged (as I do many times) then you figure something how. Personally, I've learned how to push out my ball gag enough to talk when needed.


when a submissive is wearing a gag is not what was meant by the statement *become non- verbal*  some times during play a person can get to a head space were they may be thinking that are talking and they are not... they may loose all ablitiy to think clearly and remember.... or get into a catharitic state where they just are not able to speak.

just some examples of why safewords or signals do not always bring safety to play. the top must also take responsibility to know when to stop the play.

Knight's alandra

(in reply to AquaticSub)
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RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:44:06 PM   
Lady Alaria


Posts: 160
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Of course getting to know the person that you are about to allow to tie you up and torture you is just silly advice and could lead to boring encounters. Meeting people on the fly and trusting them with your life can be sooooo much more exhilarating! Suggestion on a good place to meet would be your local prison. You could stand outside the gate and wait for the new releases. You know damn well they are going to be horny, willing and ready for some new adventure. Just make sure you have your safe word agreed upon.

intended as humor only


Shrug

Dunno, my intuition about a person and their basic human decency has never been wrong. At all. Even a little. So, I think I'd trust my gut, even if I was crazy enough to want to hang around outside a prison looking for a date. Don't know for certain though, as I've never been that hard up.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:44:55 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I often wonder if the ones SM experience actually contributes to the narrowness of ones views on play.  It has been my experience of individuals that play OR have witnessed repeatedly play at a more intense level have a more informed and thoughtful opinion on play in general.  We often make judgements soley based on our experiences.  If we never experience a particularly step it becomes very difficult for a person to appreciate certain ideals and concepts.

It is difficult in a online forum to really assess how much or types of experience a person has.  But, I find that those who's opinions and judgements are more thoughtful and open-minded will have a more experiences or at least made greater efforts in considering a particular thought or concept.  It is common that many speak a particular opinion or judgement but instead of it being based on appropriate and significant experience, it is based on personal beliefs and values.  Unfortunately, many called it based on experience and not on their beliefs and values.  Of course their is also those that have one experience and choose to make judgements and opinions well beyond the context of the actual experience.

I trust that in time individuals that gain enough actual experience or put enough effort into consideration to specific thoughts will find that their orginally narrowed judgements will give way to a more open-minded considerations.


I tend to agree with your observations. I believe also that it is not just the quantity of experience that contributes but also the quality and variety. A person who has been in a 20 year D/s or M/s relationship in the privacy of their own home, being influenced only by the thoughts and experiences of their partner will have a significantly narrower view than someone who spent 20 years in a lifestyle community, with or without the same partner, where they have been associated with and witness to many different styles and personalities.

The other thing that I believe greatly influences many folks....and I know this will not be a popular observation....is that many people here learn much of what this lifestyle is supposed to be about by rote. Rote was a wonderful way to learn the rules of phonics as a child....but it is a deficient way to learn about a lifestyle where an understanding of the inner complexities is of greater importance. Unfortunately though, when coming into this lifestyle and asking questions, they are often answered by standard, pat answers and well rehearsed mantras. I learned the rule "i before e, except after c and when sounding like "a" as in neighbor and weigh" by rote. It would take more than a bulldozer and a pry bar to get that out of my head. I think that for many, the basic concepts here have been learned and cemented into their brains in very much the same way and it would take an act of Congress and the word of a higher power to get them to be able to let go of it.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:46:55 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline 		i have only done bdsm in the context of an ongoing, one on one relationship, so i can't speak for those who do otherwise....and i can only speak for myself.
 
Although i felt fairly safe when we played, i also knew that we were still learning about each other.  With each partner, there was a safeword in place 'just in case'.  my partner trusted me enough that he believed i would not use it 'lightly' (for lack of a better term).  i, on the other hand, trusted him enough to believe that he would stop what he was doing if i did need to use it.  It was really pretty simple for us.
 
In each case, this was agreeable at the beginning of the partnership....so there was never any qualms about it later on.  And personally, i would not get involved with a partner who wouldn't allow a safeword (or some type of indicator) in place at the beginning.  Maybe in time i would not feel a need for such, but that has not been the case yet. 
 
DG

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:51:29 PM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1839
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuciusAestus

Call me stupid, but I'm not really into the whole safeword thing, I feel that it would ruin the experience if it could be cancelled at any time.



That is an excellent thing for all single submissives to know right up front.   Those that like permanant damage or serious injury know whom to go to. LOL

Unless ofcourse you are psychic and can tell when you are doing harmful damage to the sub.




It is good to know upfront which dominants don't use safewords though. It's something to show beginners who to avoid.


I always love it when people presume that a dominant is always going to play full out with someone who isn't sure what they're doing.

Let me tell you, safewords don't do one bit of good if a dominant isn't going to listen to them in the first place. Safewords are like insurance - there for peace of mind only.

I've had safewords and played with someone unsafe when I was new - believe me, knowing that today's safeword is "snowflake" did absolutely nothing to keep me from getting hurt. I've had no safwords and played with someone safe and been thrilled the whole way through.

Making the presumption - and putting it out there - that safewords are the airbags of bdsm is pretty irresponsible too. Fact is, you take your chances, you pay your price, and the only thing you can really do is take some time to make some good judgments on who you are playing with. Like Goldilocks and the three Bears, sometimes that price is too high; sometimes it's too low; and sometimes, it's just right.

Personally, I'll take my chances with no safewords. Amazing as it is, I've never once wound up in the hospital, suffered permanent damage or could be considered a doormat (ok, so I could be considered a doormat, but so far, he's never wiped his feet on me.)

Bottom line is that this stuff we do is risky business and we take chances others might not take - including playing without safewords when we want.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 12/12/2006 4:54:29 PM >

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:53:27 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:


_____________________________
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Having a safe word in place is not the same as not trusting or not knowing your partner.


And NOT having a safeword in place is not the same thing as being dangerous and someone to avoid.


Honestly, it's something that can be regarded as a red flag. If someone is vehemently opposed to having something in place that will likely never be used and whose sole purpose to provide a sense a comfort and doesn't intrude on the dominant in any way - one has to ask why.

I can understand not liking them. But if I go "Hey, if I cry mayday will you stop?" and they say "no", I say "Bye".

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:53:59 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 6434
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria

I guess it would be best to say that safewords are vital to primal play -aside- from in a long term, deeply trusting, well-established relationship where a huge amount of effort has been put into creating a space of safe communication.



mmmmmmmmm really... well I don't play with "Safewords"... I play with open communication.. and play stops when I decide not the bottom.

editted to added this(thefirst time I met denkia) I spent approximately 4-8 hours with my bottom over a period of 14 days before I played her.  Her exact experience before me was um... well a simple flogging that was like a nice massage for her.  (

She watched me play a couple people at a play party... the same party that she got her first experience of being flogged.  The next play party I played her in a primal manner that was beyond what most could ever dream of being at.

So ... I don't agree with your thoughts.  Again.. it comes down to the knowing the quality of a person and making the best value judgement you can with the information you have.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 12/12/2006 5:00:15 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

"Respect.... It is the ability to see people as they are, to be aware of their unique individuality" Eric Fromm

(in reply to Lady Alaria)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:54:08 PM   
Lady Alaria


Posts: 160
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


It could take years... for some it is much shorter. Seems you have tunnel vision on equating 'getting to know someone as taking alot of time'

Maybe you should expand you narrowed perceptions to understand getting to know someone has nothing to do with time. It a question of the Quality of knowing a person.



No tunnel vision I think. Quality of getting to know can tell me whether I trust the person to even be willing to listen when I safeword. Whether I feel they are aware and decent enough to want mutual pleasure from the whole thing. But it won't assure me that they will be able to decipher the intricacies of subtle communication in scene. I'd rather have something pretty concrete there that there is no misunderstanding.

I also have no interest in a top repeatedly checking in, constantly being communicative, and asking me how I am with all this. This generally makes me want to tell them to untie me and let me hold the whip. Maybe I'm just wired funny that way though.... It feels like being close to the most fantastic orgasm and having the person -stop-....and come up by my ear and ask 'So how is this for you? Faster, slower?'. Drives me crazy, and not in a good way.



(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:56:00 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:




when a submissive is wearing a gag is not what was meant by the statement *become non- verbal*  some times during play a person can get to a head space were they may be thinking that are talking and they are not... they may loose all ablitiy to think clearly and remember.... or get into a catharitic state where they just are not able to speak.

just some examples of why safewords or signals do not always bring safety to play. the top must also take responsibility to know when to stop the play.

Knight's alandra


Well if they can't speak because of headspace how they supposed to tell people when something is wrong, safeword or not? That is a not a good arguement when it comes to safewords because if you can't talk you can't interupt the scene verbally no matter how you want to do it.

In that case you must rely on your dominant to know what he is doing and to see it. During primal play that does not always happen. That is the risk you take during primal play.

Edited for wrong word use. Sorry. 

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to alandraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 4:56:08 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra
Making the presumption - and putting it out there - that safewords are the airbags of bdsm is pretty irresponsible too. Fact is, you take your chances, you pay your price, and the only thing you can really do is take some time to make some good judgments on who you are playing with. Like Goldilocks and the three Bears, sometimes that price is too high; sometimes it's too low; and sometimes, it's just right.


I frigging love it. Airbags and Goldilocks....now why doesn't shit like that come to me?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 5:03:32 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 35791
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Since I am the asshole who ruined the thread with safewords, the hard players take it to soft and the soft players too hard.

If you choose to struggle or choose to defy..........well that ups the stakes.

you do the oh, my...yellow, red , chartruese, puce or mauve........not gonna cut it, know what I mean?

45 safe words (at least) in reverse alphabetical order....starting with Zygote, Yggdrasil, Xenophobe
--- to know and recite the current and archaic meanings will speed things along....
because I don't see any reason that in this kinda play that a safeword is the end of it...

As the inquisitor, or the foil of the little play, I can hold out the certain hope that all you need to do is confess, or give in or whatever the end game is.........and you will at some point lay this surrender (like the gift of submission...........lol) in my grasp............

Well folks, even confessors go to jail.  Because a baby is unaware, why should it not be burned when it sticks its hand on the hot stove?


LOL,
Bernardo Gui


_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



(in reply to adaddysgirl)
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