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submission - 1/25/2004 10:08:42 PM

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I have a MSN group and someone recently said that a sub has to "apply" to a Dom/me. Has always been my understanding that submission is a gift and no one should have to "apply" to give a gift.
I would like other view points on this. Should a sub/slave apply to serve someone or is it a gift?

RE: submission - 1/25/2004 10:46:26 PM

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I have never been one that was into the whole *gift* thing. After all, why would it be more a gift of submission given by the submissive than a gift by the dominant to allow the submissive to achive things they need?

Nor am I one that believes one should request *applications* This lifestyle is one dealing with people. It is one of learning to find someone compatible with you likes, wants and needs, no matter what your *inclinations* (dominant or submissive) might be.

Just my opinions though :)

Sandy

(in reply to crystalslave)

RE: submission - 1/25/2004 11:22:06 PM

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I think that the "gift" thing can be taken too far. It basically is a reminder ( especially to clueless Dom/me wannabes) that a sub gives her submission, it is not taken. But I agree with Sandy that a Dom/me gives something equally as valuable to a slave or sub.
As for applications, you are not applying for a job. ( Though it could seem like one. Lol). This is a relationship between two people. The D/s aspect doesn't change that one bit. You don't apply to be with someone. You get to know them. And they get to know you. Just as it has always been.

(in reply to crystalslave)

RE: submission - 1/26/2004 6:25:32 AM

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Joined: 1/5/2004
From: New York
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crystalslave,

I have to agree with the other two posts for the most part, yes submission is a gift. And I think that the domination is a gift as well. The concept of "Submission as a gift" does go far to remind newbies that they can't just "take" any sub that catches their fancy.

Now we come to this "Apply" thing, and please remember this is just my opinion, but I have always felt that those who want various individuals to "apply" for a position as a sub don't really get it - they are looking for a cheap thrill, a quick fix, and maybe masturbation material. They certainly are not looking for relationship, or if they are, they are truly clueless as to how to go about establishing one. The relationship between the Dominant and the submissive can be very intense, and damn personal. It is about people connecting, it is not about people through some kind of application process like they were so many cattle.

Some would have you think that you have to "apply" and if you are found "Worthy" then you are allowed to serve them. Fuck that shit. That is garbage UNLESS certain things are made known to the applicant before hand: 1. What are the exact criteria for approval or disapproval? 2. When will the applicant know whether he or she is "approved" or "rejected". 3. Is the approval or disapproval based solely on physical attributes, if so, what is the standard for approval?

Most of those who want others to "apply" don't provide the above information because they really have no idea what they want, they just want their collective egos stroked by having someone "apply" to serve them, almost like they were not a person but an institution. What a crock that is.

My best advice, to those subs who are considering “applying” - leave the wannabes alone – let someone else be their cannon fodder for ego boosting. Just say no.

ShadowHwk

(in reply to crystalslave)

RE: submission - 1/26/2004 6:30:02 AM

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Like Sandy I dont believe in the whole submission is a gift thing. How we talk about and referance things today has lost what this life is all about. Mainly that the Dominants are the ones in control and have the say so in what is what.
But anyway, there are many ways that people live the lifestyle. Because there really isnt much in the way of real life training and personal introductions going on anymore applications arent something that I feel are good.
When you talk to someone get to know the person, not the Dom. If that person isnt open to talking to you like an equal then be leery.

William

(in reply to crystalslave)

RE: submission - 1/26/2004 8:58:35 AM

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Joined: 1/10/2004
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Right on ShadowHawk, right on.
I would like to add that My understanding of the "gift" of submission doesn't necessarily refer to her sexual or D/s pleasures, but rather her submission as a concept. In other words, a submissive shouldn't be expected to address everyone as "Sir" or "Ma'am", "Master" or "Mistress" based merely on the fact that these people see themselves in that role. If she chooses a Man or Woman to offer herself to, that is her decision, therefore offering her submission and respect as a gift. Submission and respect should be earned, never demanded or given lightly.
Just My opinion:)

(in reply to ShadowHwk)

RE: submission - 1/26/2004 7:31:56 PM

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DocHolliday......thank You for that :)
That is what I have always understood as well. Maybe In my post I described the gift incorrectly, You have cleared that up for me.
It really bugs me that Dom/me's think they need applications. Who do they think they are?
And the Sir, Ma'am, Master thing......when a sub says that to a Dom she is accused of being a wannabe. I know because it has happened wayyyyy too many times to be.

DocHolliday, again, thank You Sir

(in reply to DocHolliday)

RE: submission - 1/26/2004 8:33:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShadowHwk

Now we come to this "Apply" thing, and please remember this is just my opinion, but I have always felt that those who want various individuals to "apply" for a position as a sub don't really get it - they are looking for a cheap thrill, a quick fix, and maybe masturbation material. They certainly are not looking for relationship, or if they are, they are truly clueless as to how to go about establishing one. The relationship between the Dominant and the submissive can be very intense, and damn personal. It is about people connecting, it is not about people through some kind of application process like they were so many cattle.

ShadowHwk:

Very passionately put and I'd wager probably at least partially correct (especially the part about not really looking for a relationship). There is another perspective, however.

It is currently 11:10 pm where I am. I got off work about 6:30 and got home around 7:00 (actually made very good time). I have been sitting in front of my computer since I got home and have not opened all my email. I have been fairly diligent about it, but it's not done (and probably won't get done tonight). This is a fairly regular occurance for me (and MANY dominant women that I know). It's also a regular occurance for many submissive females that I know.

So, I have an 'application process' that essentially is about reading my ENTIRE text website (which answers MANY questions regarding my likes, preferences, how I do things, what I would and would not be amenable to, etc.) This website saves me an immeasurable amount of wasted time typing. At the end of this long, single page there is a brief paragraph that discusses what sort of email I am most likely to respond to and gives the simple instruction "put 'I read it all' in the subject line of your email." I figure if someone is genuinely interested in learning about me, they'll read it all the way to the end and then if they still think they are compatible with me they know how to get my attention. When anyone asks me for a link to my website, I send them the link to the text website and a link to the pictures.

Wanna guess what the percentages of emails are with subjects that say "I read it all"? Probably less than 2%. Now, I'm not talking about 10 emails a day. I'm talking about 70 to 100 (most of which read in their entirety "40yo dwm, into dildo training, very oral. Please Mistress").

So when I have to decide who gets the little bit of time I have to give in emails and/or IMs I usually look for the one who showed he or she was most interested in ME (and not my pictures). That is most likely the person I will enjoy interacting with anyway. Perhaps this is cold, but it was what I had to do to enable me to have a place from which to start. One on one chat with everyone who wishes to have it with me would drain me in short order. If the introductory letter is as inclusive as I request on the website then I will be able to quickly ascertain whether we are simply not suitable for each other and respond politely with that information (an example would be someone who yearns to be a full toilet slave - I have no interest in scat at all). What I have found is that often the person who gets to the bottom of the page, responds as I've requested and has taken time to write not only about his kinks but about who he is, is someone that I will end up befriending even if we are not a match.

I have to have a culling process or some days I would drive myself insane just reading the drivel. No culling process is always fair. The good news is that I'm fairly active in r/t and if we don't hit it off in email (or I'm too busy to do it justice) there is always the potential to meet me out and about. I respond well to a warm smile and an extended hand.

So you see, there are other reasons for application processes other than low self esteem. Often it's the only way to find a balance between being available and not letting others drive you nuts with their need.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to ShadowHwk)

RE: submission - 1/26/2004 8:43:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crystalslave

I have a MSN group and someone recently said that a sub has to "apply" to a Dom/me. Has always been my understanding that submission is a gift and no one should have to "apply" to give a gift.
I would like other view points on this. Should a sub/slave apply to serve someone or is it a gift?

I do NOT buy into the submission is a gift smegma. A gift is something given without expectation of anything in return, in my reality. If someone is submitting and not being dominated in return, s/he's gonna pretty quickly take that submission back and find someone who appreciates it. You don't take gifts back, at least not in my world. And I certainly don't give them with the expectation that i'm going to receive something in return.

Submission isn't a gift. D/s is an equal exchange, with both people giving something of equal value. A trade, of sorts, but not a gift.

As far as the application process, I can totally understand that. I live with a dominant woman. I see the number of "requests" she receives. I also see the quality (or general lack thereof) of most of them.

I see submissive individuals approaching desirable dominant folks all the time, with a laundry list of what they want/need/expect. Um...ok, but what are you offering in return? What do you bring to the table to enhance the other person's life? Why is it so wrong to make the process a little more formalized in order to separate the wheat from the chaff? And since many submissive people are at least SAYING that they're offering "service" of some sort, what's wrong with determining just what they think that service is, and how it might fit into the person's life?

An application is simply a way of selling yourself - showing yourself in the best light possible with regards to the needs of the situation. People do it to get into a great school or to work for a great company. Why would they feel so differently about it in this regard? Femdoms in particular, I think, have a huge pool of candidates to choose from, and an application process of sorts makes finding the *right* one much more effecient.

-- Sherri

< Message edited by SherriA -- 1/27/2004 1:45:30 AM >

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to crystalslave)

RE: submission - 1/26/2004 9:49:24 PM

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ooooohhh I love that one Sherri! Next time I get into the *submission is a gift* fight, I'll ask them if they take back gifts as part of the normal way they deal with things :)

Sandy

(in reply to SherriA)

RE: submission - 1/26/2004 10:22:29 PM

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submission is a "service" now????

(in reply to SherriA)

RE: submission - 1/26/2004 10:44:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crystalslave

submission is a "service" now????

I didn't say submission is a service. Go back and read it again. For many people who self-identify as submissive, service is an integral component. If it's not part of YOUR particular brand of submission, that's fine, but is it necessary to denigrate those for whom it happens to be important?

-- Sherri

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to crystalslave)

RE: submission - 1/27/2004 5:39:38 AM

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I have been reading the submission is a gift comments.
In all honesty this conecpt was hatched online by the subs who arent really subs but people looking for a conditional relationship. Kinky maybe but not giving submission.
Ok now before you blast me for saying this think about it.
What is the hierarchy of our lifestyle? If you think in that context then is a sub saying that what she has is a gift? To me its like her saying, "now if your a good boy I will buy you an ice cream cone".
To me it cheapens what this is about and shows me a person who thinks that they are better then others.
Submission isnt about any of the physical stuff its about the mindset and feelings that a person wants someone to control them and guide them. In return they show loyalty and want to please. All they ask is that they are taken care of and not treated like some piece of furniture or meat.
You dont submit to someone for a couple of hours in a scene. Submitting to someone means there is a comitment that goes beyond a blowjob and a spanking.
Submission isnt a gift, it is a melding of people who understand and want each other.

William

(in reply to SherriA)

RE: submission - 1/27/2004 6:21:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crystalslave

submission is a "service" now????

When the vast majority of people approach and say "Mistress, may I serve you?" then I MUST ask "what does service mean to you?" You'd be AMAZED at the different opinions I get from that question. MANY MANY MANY people think that "service" is the word you use to describe "bottoming in session" and they think that this is their "gift."

I have over 20 years in this scene. I own a very well stocked dungeon with literally 10s of thousands of dollars of equipment. I probably own about 6 thousand dollars worth of fetish clothes, leather and shoes. In the 20 years or so I've been doing this I have attended nursing school, studied psychology, religions & spirituality, and also many esoteric forms of the "body/mind connection."

Care to tell me how "service" as described above is a "gift" and how this particular version of "service" would level the playing field in terms of enriching my life? It's absolutely true that, if I wanted to, I could spend all day long with guys lined up down the road holding numbers waiting to bottom...and yet I am supposed to think of this as a "gift"?

I bring a considerable amount to the table and I will be damned if I will give what I have to offer away to just anybody, especially anybody who thinks that their willingness to bend their knee to their libido is supposed to be an "honor" to me.

I am interested in reciprocity. Someone who's "gift" of "service/submission" is simply the "willingness to bottom" has nothing to offer me that I can't provide for myself nor is it unique. I have no interest in someone who doesn't realize their worth beyond their kink and/or fetish.

So, when someone says they wish to "serve" I always ask what "service" means to them. They may mean "bottoming", the dom down the street means "a blow job" and the domme across the way means "clean my house." Is it any wonder people come together thinking they are saying the same thing and end up leaving each other resentful?

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to crystalslave)

RE: submission - 1/27/2004 8:09:22 AM

LK

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Joined: 1/25/2004
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Actually I would require an application. Not to "bottom" to me or to be submissive to me on a casual occasional basis. The time that I would require an application or rather a petition, would be when someone had been with me long enough and was ready for the next level...a collar.

The application wouldn't be scene related, it would be about who they are as a person, and the major events in their life that made them that way. It would be more like a personal history.

LK

And boy can I relate to the above post!

(in reply to MizSuz)

RE: submission - 1/27/2004 12:42:30 PM

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From: New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz

Very passionately put and I'd wager probably at least partially correct (especially the part about not really looking for a relationship). There is another perspective, however.

It is currently 11:10 pm where I am. I got off work about 6:30 and got home around 7:00 (actually made very good time). I have been sitting in front of my computer since I got home and have not opened all my email. I have been fairly diligent about it, but it's not done (and probably won't get done tonight). This is a fairly regular occurance for me (and MANY dominant women that I know). It's also a regular occurance for many submissive females that I know.

So, I have an 'application process' that essentially is about reading my ENTIRE text website (which answers MANY questions regarding my likes, preferences, how I do things, what I would and would not be amenable to, etc.) This website saves me an immeasurable amount of wasted time typing. At the end of this long, single page there is a brief paragraph that discusses what sort of email I am most likely to respond to and gives the simple instruction "put 'I read it all' in the subject line of your email."

Thank you MizSuz. And I have to say, the application process your describing lets the potential sub know a WHOLE lot about you, and what you are looking for, and gives you a way to determine if they actually made the effort to find out as much as they could - this is a great idea.

And I am just as positive that most of those that want a sub/slave to "apply" don't do anything like this. They want to know "all" about her, without having to let anyone know about "them" - if you get my meaning.

ShadowHwk

(in reply to MizSuz)

RE: submission - 1/27/2004 2:49:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: trnmastr

You dont submit to someone for a couple of hours in a scene. Submitting to someone means there is a comitment that goes beyond a blowjob and a spanking.

Why does it have to be that way? Why CAN'T someone choose to submit only for the duration of a scene? I'm not talking about bottoming/masochism. If submission is basically the subjugation of one's will to another....the giving of control to someone else, they why does it have to have a minimum time limit? And who gets to decide what those minimum parameters are?

D/s isn't my thing, and I've always been clear about that. But, if i enjoy surrendering control to someone for a finite time period, who gets to say that's NOT submission? There is NO One True Way.

-- Sherri

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to trnmastr)

RE: submission - 1/27/2004 3:33:37 PM

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I agree with you fully Sherri. When I am asked about the terms such as *submission*, that it's all semantics. The *strict* definition may not be *yours* (generic you), but who is to say it is wrong?

There are some things that are clearly written in stone. To me, definitions in the lifestyle rarely are.

Sandy

(in reply to SherriA)

RE: submission - 1/27/2004 10:08:52 PM

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShadowHwk

Thank you MizSuz. And I have to say, the application process your describing lets the potential sub know a WHOLE lot about you, and what you are looking for, and gives you a way to determine if they actually made the effort to find out as much as they could - this is a great idea.

There is a ton of stuff on the internet about me. Anyone who was curious could keep themself in reading material for a little while, if they were so inclined. I've found, however, that most people eschew that much effort. As you say, this facilitates the culling process.

I have tried to make things easy not only for myself, but also for the genuine seeker. By culling out the clearly unsuitable (those that would not put forth the effort to avail themself of information about me) it enables me to be gracious with those that deserve common courtesy simply BECAUSE they took the time to try to speak to Suz (as opposed to "Mistress").

Be that as it may, I appreciate your praise. It is always nice when one's efforts are acknowledged. :)

quote:

And I am just as positive that most of those that want a sub/slave to "apply" don't do anything like this. They want to know "all" about her, without having to let anyone know about "them" - if you get my meaning.

Yeah, I suppose I do get your meaning. I remember when I first started meeting people from the internet. I was quite cautious. Safe Calls, all personal info, only meet in public places and only with people I'd spent literally months with online and on the phone.

I don't spend months getting to know someone online before I meet them anymore (not unless it just happens from being present in the same online groups - an example would be this message board). I also don't spend large amounts of time having coffee with strangers anymore, and more often than not calling me will get you voicemail.

I figure if someone is approaching me then they are willing to give what they want to get. Phone numbers are a reciprocity thing. If I give you mine and you don't give me yours, we're done. Cya. Next! I feel similarly about photos. But as I said, there is a lot of information on the net about me, if you look for it; so most folks start out with the ability to learn a lot more about me than I know about them.

I think that online is a wonderful tool whose primary purpose should be to facilitate communication with people who are already in your r/t life. Meeting new people is secondary (all though I will grant you that it's quite possible to meet some excellent individuals and groups from online). If you are looking for something r/t then I highly suggest r/t meetings asap. Face-time has a way of keeping things in perspective.

Even if the reason someone isn't forthcoming is because they are new to online and fearful of the horror stories about transitioning from online to r/t (and there are a LOT of people who feel that way) that still means they are not ready. If they are not forthcoming with their own information then move along, someone more appropriate is out there.

Is that what you meant?

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to ShadowHwk)

RE: submission - 1/28/2004 5:38:25 AM

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From: New York
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MizSuz,

That is exactly what I meant.

While I am fairly direct in my manner of speech, I often lack eloquence - well said indeed.

ShadowHwk

(in reply to MizSuz)

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