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Does Courtesy Still Count?


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Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 6:45:08 AM   
Another


Posts: 172
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		Tal and greetings,

I had this conversation recently with a friend of mine, and have been pondering over it in my mind.   Have we as a society at whole raised a generation that lack manners and common courtesy?    And if so why?   I am not going to pretend I have all the answers; I don’t have a degree in psychology or sociology.  

Parents teach children manners, how to interact with others, but it’s not only from parents children learn.  It’s also from television.  I recall in the old sitcoms, children showed respect to adults by addressing them with a title.  I compare those shows to the garbage they pass as sitcoms today.   The cute little comments from the teenagers, the precocious four year old making fun of her/his parent, all interfused with canned laughter from the “audience”. 

Where did we evolve that we lost the strong male dominance in a family?  Is that a reason we have a generation that is confused?   I firmly believe it takes a man to raise a boy to be a man, just as I also firmly believe it takes a woman to raise a daughter to be a woman.

In our lifestyle, courtesy and manners to me is a cornerstone of our beliefs.   That is where it begins as we converse with one another.  That is one thing that impressed me so long ago, when I went into a Gorean based chat room.  How courteous everyone was to each other.  I try to extend basic common courtesy to men and women, respect comes later, respect is earned.   When I see the lack of common courtesy, I know personally my feelings about that person have greatly diminished.  Do they care?  No.   I have found those that are less than courteous are also extremely selfish.

Our credibility rests with our words - that is all we have here.

I wish you well,

Liz
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 7:31:31 AM   
Mitzie


Posts: 688
Joined: 9/20/2006
Status: offline
Tal and greetings
good post Liz
I blame the parents and the television for the children of today
when I was younger I was always taught that if the bus was busy and someone older got on I was to stand and let them sit down be they man or woman ,and I am the same today if it ever occurs

My mother when walking down a street would always say hello as an elderly person passes,I once asked her why she says hello to someone she doesnt know she replied to me that the elderly person may live alone and might not speak with anyone in days , and by ackowledging them might just make there day ,
something I now do myself ,

one thing I love here is the odd gentleman still will doff his hat in passing a female again a thing from the past

re the television well just look at the childrens programmes especially this tracey beaker or whatever her name is called , I know it has an effect in real life as my niece has copied her actions and my sister had to take strict actions to stop it getting any further .

not being allowed to disipline in schools I believe has also caused many many problems as now theres no teacher pupil respect,

also the rule where one cannot smack a child ,nowdays its the child who says smack me and I am reporting you , I mean like huh your not allowed to chastise your own flesh and blood

when I was younger I had the belt and slipper and ouch yes the cane (I wasnt the perfect child lol) if you was to ask me now do I think it helped me to become a better person then I will have to say yes it did

to me we adults are losing control and something needs to be done about it

Mitzie

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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 7:31:32 AM   
nikaa


Posts: 357
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings Mistress,

Common courtesy is not so common anymore in my opinion. In today’s society, I believe like anything else common courtesy has/is subject to “personal interpretation.” Etiquette and social graces are a rarity.

In the end I can not control how someone else behaves I can only control who I choose to interact with and how I treat others.


< Message edited by nikaa -- 1/6/2007 7:32:01 AM >

_____________________________

Blessed Be,

Phoenix's Nika


The Cherokee legacy is that we are a people who face adversity, survive, adapt, prosper and excel.


Wakan Tankan Nici Un




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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 7:32:15 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Today, a young person is only a young person, when society thinks they should be. This dynamic isn't lost on young people.

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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 7:49:00 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline
quote:

Plato:  What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?


quote:

Socrates, Plato's teacher:  The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt forauthority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and are tyrants over their teachers.


quote:

Hesiod, almost 400 years before Socrates:  I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint.


This concern for our youth, and their bad manners is nothing new.

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 1/6/2007 7:52:29 AM >

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 7:52:30 AM   
nikaa


Posts: 357
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		Mistress Mitzie,

As an educator I strongly disagree with this statement:not being allowed to disipline in schools I believe has also caused many many problems as now theres no teacher pupil respect.

As an educator I can and do discipline children, granted it is not corpral punishment but discipline and redirection none the less. There are many students of all ages that respect their teachers, granted not all teachers are deserving of respect or do they give the students the respect they deserve.





 

_____________________________

Blessed Be,

Phoenix's Nika


The Cherokee legacy is that we are a people who face adversity, survive, adapt, prosper and excel.


Wakan Tankan Nici Un




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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 8:08:43 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16627
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Tal,

People avoid courtesy when they think they have something to lose, that they must hang on to their power and control, rather than realizing this flags their lack of power and control.

As a music student, I met many remarkable musicians, and many with attitude, but the top ones, the most famous ones, were as nice as could be, even to some grundgy college students. These people had nothing to prove.

As a writing professor, I frequently run in to rude students, yet as a rule (not always), when they are treated with respect, they start to demonstrate courtesy themselves. (One student, who had behaved quite inappropriately, even came back to apologize, and quite sincerely). Further, it's how I treat the "worst" students, not the "best" ones, that tells my classes what they can expect from me. (That said, they're more concerned that I'm a tough grader.)

Courtesy tells about ourselves, not necessarily the people we're addressing.

[Note--don't confuse courtesy with deferrence, belonging to the person addressed.]

Best,

Tim



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/6/2007 8:14:52 AM >

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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 8:09:00 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Greetings Everyone,

Could it possibly have to do with the race for equality and the misunderstood concept of such?  I believe children see themselves many times as equals to those who have authority over them,and no one takes the time to explain the difference.  In a society where things are rushed, downsized and formulated to change every month (i.e. tech.) is there a stability of comfort within our society?  Therefore, the instability they have within the place they are suppose to have the most stability (their home environment) many times is the forefront of their actions, and they decide to make their own stability and that is to rise to the level of equality of those who have created the very instability they are trying to stablize.. their parents, teachers, authority, so they can take control of their lives.

A child can only be what he was created to be, and if that child is allowed to be a child, to grow up under the guidance of people around him in a positive way, there is no need to assert their equality because they don't recognize that they NEED to be equal, they are kids under the authority figures they recognize and respect. 

A child who has two parents who are more concerned about themselves , who make expectations on a child to fend for himself, and allow that child to be an adult without the teaching of how to be one, then in the end, you have what was created based on his environment around him, he doesn't KNOW any differently, as a child who grows up with people who teach him that what he may see on TV isn't the right way, or what he sees on TV is a negative thing.

You have a question then posed, you have expectations of they should know better as adults, but it begs the question, should they? 

Part of this concept is why i need Gorean slavery, it allows me to know my place and in doing so to be softer, not defensive, and to relax into trying to be beautiful woman from the inside out to see that acknowledgement in the Men around me, and those smiles that make my heart race and belly curl, because i have achieved that because i am slave.  Let someone else deal with our places in the world, i have always seen slavery as a slave focused on the Man before her who is facing the world, and he is between her and the world, her focus is simple, him.  Many may see this as weak and a copout attitude to facing the world at large, but in the end, damnit the world is a place i would rather someone else have to fight. (make note, this does not mean a slave is ignorant of the world, she simply doesn't have to fight it)

i can concentrate on that instead of fighting for my place in the world, i know my place and in the end, whether others agree or not, its a place i need to be.  When i am not owned, i feel like i have to be wary of the world, defensive of my position in it, and i see myself equal to many.  Nor do i have to then figure out my place continually, i know my place.  I try and be polite, but its easy for me to disintegrate into fightmode when confronted by something that angers me, scares me, or makes me wary. 

I believe many people live like that, they wonder what someone wants from them, and feel they have to battle for their place, where as in past history, people knew their place and not everyone was someone you had to prove yourself to or defend yourself too for your simple existance.

In our society many times politeness, common courtesy and softness is perceived as a weakness in the negative way, or is perceived to be a cover up for someone who is out to get something, and many times it makes people wary, if that makes sense.

i wish you well,

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 1/6/2007 8:27:45 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 8:31:03 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		Alright, will offer something more concrete than the dead philosophers.

Children, like adults, don't want to be told what they can't do.  They need to be told what they should do.  Instead of telling a child where he shouldn't play, they respond quite well when told not only where they can play, but given choices as to where to play, what games they can do there, and how much fun they will have doing it.  With so many great choices, they don't spend a lot of time wondering why they can't do X or Y. 

Respect is earned.  Teachers don't automatically deserve such - they must earn it like anyone else.  Age, wisdom, and credentials don't, and shouldn't mean a thing to children.  Children aren't falling victim to any greater degree of 'social degradation' than any other sector of society.  Before we point the finger at them, we might want to do some pointing in the mirror.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 8:36:31 AM   
nikaa


Posts: 357
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Respect is earned.  Teachers don't automatically deserve such - they must earn it like anyone else.  Age, wisdom, and credentials don't, and shouldn't mean a thing to children.  Children aren't falling victim to any greater degree of 'social degradation' than any other sector of society.  Before we point the finger at them, we might want to do some pointing in the mirror.

 
 
*smiles*

Very well said!

_____________________________

Blessed Be,

Phoenix's Nika


The Cherokee legacy is that we are a people who face adversity, survive, adapt, prosper and excel.


Wakan Tankan Nici Un




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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 8:56:12 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Very unfair Stephann ...
 
Young people have to get top grades, but aren't allowed to think they are smart.
 
They can't make any mistakes or will get sent to "the bad kids school", but have to sit through stories about cutting class in the 70's to hang out in Corpus Christi.
 
General response ... most people my age, have never watched a sitcom ... just so eveyone knows. Any chance that older people smoked too much leaf when they were younger, and are just wacked out today?

-edited to fix Stephann's name, because I'm sure some here would consider that a capital offense.



< Message edited by caitlyn -- 1/6/2007 8:57:35 AM >

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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 9:34:28 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hi Mitzie,
  Exactly the examples I was trying to point out in the previous thread. The children and young adults of today have no sense of moral and courtious behavior.They have no sense of accountability or consiquence.Why?. because the family structure has broken down.most families do not even sit down together for a meal. The results are,lack or no respect for elders.These so called child advicates are a good reason for this, as you mentioned..a child threatens to report a parent when discaplined and so on.when my oldest son, who is now 20, was little, he told a teacher I spanked him, he negated to say why. That teacher turned around and called child services...1 week later guess who I had at my door. I was not happy to say the least, but did I cow tow?...*grinz* what do you think?, anyways, I took the lady  on a tour of my home, showed her how clean and tidy it was, that my fridge and cabinets were stocked with food, I actually stripped my son down to his scivies and shown her he had NO bruises.The lady did not appreciate that..lol...she asked me, do I hit my kid...I said...damn straight I do, when it is called for...she told me, I could not do that. I said, BS I cant He is my son I gave birth to and when he does wrong he will be disciplined and if you have a problem with that, take me to court. I then shown her the door and half expected a summons a day or two later...lol...but never heard from them again.Parents as well as people in general , have to be strong and uphold decent standards that are nurturing as well as clear about what is acceptable behavior and what is not.I feel Goreans do just that, they work to uphold strong values and standards and we instill them in our children as well as each other.We judge each other by those standards just like any society would judge those around them by theirs.
well wishes
Maah

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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 9:45:59 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Goreans,

When asked if I thought this was a good post or not, I said yes. I'm not all together sure though that there is a good way to ask it or answer it. Someone is sure to fillibuster or toss spin, or chastise this or any other subject until it's degraded into a he said, she said mess. There are some here that I thought and do think are very bright and gifted. Some are so full of themselves I would love to be there when the hammer of humility falls. Trust me we all soon enough feel it's not so glancing blow. Even if we are a coddled young one. I am responding to this but I am finding more often than not it is nearing wasted effort. Some have misconstrued debate and disrespect. They believe that acting as if they are your equal means they are. When those that are rude would actually never be so in the flesh, if you would debate this point with me I have an address I'll share. Am I implying to anyone, yes, I am implying to anyone that is annoyed at my statements, Your annoyed because it's you. I am straight a forward fellow, always have been. I am also playful, not that prick Gorean everyone has claimed we men are. I play and debate, I am also more importantly to begin with courtious to nearly anyone and everyone, unless you have worn out your welcome anyway. I don't see why if a supposed full of himself, old man can take the time and care about others, it should be all that hard for anyone else. This isn't about sitcoms or video games, it is about what your all doing right here, one after another making excuses or giving bullshit reasons, avioding the issue altoghter or weaving spin. It's about being civil, and FUCK no I'm not always civil. I am not nearly as diplomatic as our friend Stephann. But if you feel I am less than civil in your direction, ask anyone that has taken the time to get to know me. YOU HAVE EARNED IT. Some are just trying to play grown up(and this comment has no issue with anyones present age, some never grow up) with a piss poor impression of what that is. If you don't like this post I guess you can chalk it up to lack of Courtesy. But then again, if it offended you, courtesy was already an obscure notion to you. If you understand what I'm talking about you most likely were most likely understanding the OP's issue and didn't put this shoe on your foot.

Live well,

Bull

PS this was a quick whatever the hell, I was talking to anyone that gives a shit.

PSS, I was proof reading after the fact and seen where I forgot to make an important point. I don't do the Micky D's thing very often, but most of those places are the same. Order your food from some crabby almost any aged employee and you get attitude as if it was your fault they had to be there that day, you say thank you they don't, it's like your thanking them for darkening your day and hardening your arteries. WTK. Now someone here may work at a McDonalds so I may be censored or the thread locked, but I thought it an important point.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 1/6/2007 10:01:53 AM >

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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 9:46:44 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hi Stephann,

"Spare the rod,spoil the child"
I do not remember which scripture that appears in...*laughs* I will find it though, if you feel I must.
I wish you well
Maahsatti

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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 11:18:25 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7330
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		It refers to a shepherds rod, which is used to guide the flock. It is metaphorical and speaks to what happens if guidance is not used to raise your children.

General Statement:
I have a 21 year old daughter and a 15 year old son. I have had very few of the "problems" that I have heard others speak of. Both are considered polite and well mannered. I did not give them a class on this, they learned because I set the example. They are what they are because I guided them. They were often told what they cannot do, but they were always encouraged to do what they can. Parenting comes with no users manual so I see many new parents either try and find that users guide in reading as much as they can, or not putting any effort into it.

How do you change society? One person at a time.


Orion



quote:

ORIGINAL: Maahsatti

Hi Stephann,

"Spare the rod,spoil the child"
I do not remember which scripture that appears in...*laughs* I will find it though, if you feel I must.
I wish you well
Maahsatti


< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 1/6/2007 11:19:16 AM >

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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 11:18:54 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 1488
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Tal and greetings
 
On another thread I did ask about common courtesy.  After all the post I came to the belief that it was dead.  Many years ago I was a Probation Office working in the youth division.  I was amazed at the parents who allowed their children to run wild then about 17 or 18 expect them to listen to their parents and grow up.  That was some years agos, I hate to think of what it maybe like today.  As for me, I started right off teaching my daughter...got alot of questions for parents.."How do you get her to behave so well?"
 
I wish you well
 
Nosathro

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 11:29:55 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		I always love to read musings on children by those who have none.

Children learn over time how to operate in the world.  They learn what behavior, on their part, makes the world around them more hostile, and they learn what behavior on their part tends to be rewarded, or at least tolerated.  They learn where the balance between their expectations and the expectations of those around them, especially those in authority, lies.  It's a process of trial and error, testing, and learning.  It's also a process that can test the equamity of the most patient of souls, and at those times, those whose equamity is being tested tend to bitch.  It was so in ancient Greece, it is so now, it will always be so.

Tests always seem easier when you aren't the one being tested.  It is no suprise that people remember their own childhoods as being more orderly than they were.

That's all I know about this particular subject.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 11:54:55 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		I too am of the opinion that common courtesy is no longer particularly common. I can think of several reasons for this, all based around families, civic values etc.

The lack of the "traditional" nuclear family, especially one where the parents have clearly defined roles, ie where one parent is in over-all charge of the family and responsible for maintaining control and discipline.

The "equality" and "i deserve something for nothing" cultures that have become common in society as a whole. For many people being polite to somebody is a sign of respect for them, the next step is that respect implies somebody is better than you, and in today's equality culture nobody is allowed to be better than anyone else. Oddly enough the only place I see respect on a daily basis is within gangs, somewhere that there is discipline too. In recent years I have lived in areas with a very high asian population, these people seemed to hold on to the basics of family values much longer and so as a result it was rare to see an asian youth in trouble with the law,however even this group are now losing those values and begining to appear just as impolite and as likely to be in trouble

On a personal level, I consider myself reasonably polite, I say please & thank you etc, I regard such things as a little lubrication on the cogwheels of society. I will even be polite to those that are subservient to me, be it at work or in the home, it costs nothing and shows that i have seen and appreciated their efforts. I am however a little different when it comes to respect. I will not give my respect to a stranger automatically, I will however "lend" it to them until they prove themselves worthy or otherwise.

As a side note, manners vary as we travel, I have little doubt I was considered rude when in the part of the US. It was "common courtesy" there to use the word sir when adressing any unknown male, coming from a society with a class structure of sorts, to me sir is reserved for those that are my social better. I am regularly called sir by many of my staff, but the sole reason for that is that most of my staff have joined after long periods in the armed forces or the police where there is a rigid rank structure and as I "out-rank" them it is purely an ingrained habit for them to do so.

Robert Heinlien claimed that a lack of common good manners was a sign of a sick or dying society, I tend to find myself in agreement.

_____________________________

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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 12:14:27 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		greetings,


I was saddened to read that so many are not recieving common courtesty in their day to day life. That is the direct opposite of what I experience. I am always amazed how kind and nice people are to me when I am out and about in the world. Maybe it is a Florida thing but people who I come into contact with always ask how I am doing, say please and thanks, hold doors open , let me out into traffic and things like that.

Maybe it is all the sunshine and balmy air :)

well wishes
kisshou

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RE: Does Courtesy Still Count? - 1/6/2007 2:59:03 PM   
Tikkiee


Posts: 1099
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

People avoid courtesy when they think they have something to lose, that they must hang on to their power and control, rather than realizing this flags their lack of power and control.

I will admit, this hit a chord with me
Nicely stated in my opinion
 


_____________________________

~~**** cass ****~~

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