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ygraine -> off line on line (1/6/2007 8:07:43 PM)
Evening everyone, I have been thinking about the number of people who call themselves Gorean and who espouse the Gorean ethos on-line but when push comes to shove and they meet off line, or arrange to, suddenly all the rules change? Have you ever been in a situation where you had arranged to meet someone, or had invited them to a gathering or a dinner or something and found they were not what they said they were? Sometimes they dont even show up at all. I think it is important, vital even, to be the person off-line that you purport to be on-line. That includes all members of the Gorean community. I think you would be surprised by the acceptance you get from others when you are just yourself. That being said, the opposite is also true. If you are not the person you said you are, a deeply submissive woman with a slave heart, a man in charge of his own destiny, a respectful free woman, then I feel you should not represent yourself as such in this or any forum, off line or on. Have any of you had experiences where you met "Goreans" off line and found them not to be Gorean at all? If so, what did you do? Do you think others need to be informed or does it really matter? If so, how do you do that without slamming someone personally? Do we have any responsibility to the rest of the community to alert others to this kind of ....well...basically...lying? I am interested in your comments, suggestions, ideas, and thoughts. Well wishes, Y

ShieldWolf -> RE: off line on line (1/6/2007 9:35:51 PM)
Greetings, Should one be online as they are off-line? Yes. Is that realistic to expect? Yes. Are there a lot of people who do not match this in their real life, not even close? Yes Should they be outed to the community at large? That would seem to me to depend on the person doing the outing. If you can defend that choice and are willing to do it, I then suppose you can out them. If you doubt yourself about it for any reason, then it would likely be unwise to do so. I have seen that happen once here recently with less than desirable results to the one doing the outing. So consider taking such an action very carefully.

Leonidas -> RE: off line on line (1/6/2007 10:06:29 PM)
quote: Have any of you had experiences where you met "Goreans" off line and found them not to be Gorean at all? If so, what did you do? Do you think others need to be informed or does it really matter? If so, how do you do that without slamming someone personally? Do we have any responsibility to the rest of the community to alert others to this kind of ....well...basically...lying? Let me start by saying that whatever you do should not be done here. A post raising the kind of issue that you're talking about would just get pulled as a TOS violation. Beyond that, it would depend on why you think he's not Gorean. Does he seem to be a dangerous, psychotic whack-job who threatened to throw you to the pit-bulls he keeps out back because Gorean men often throw slaves to sleen, or did he just not seem to walk it like he talks it? In other words, your impression of him was that he wasn't a Gorean man, he was just some lonely guy who is trying to use Gor to get chics. The former, in my experience, is pretty rare. The latter is fairly common. You meet him online, and he seems all kind of manly and masterly, but then in person he's just some guy who wants a girlfriend and a little kinky (or not so kinky) sex. It's not that you felt threatened, just disappointed. If it's the former, then you probably need to alert the authorities about the guy before he really does throw some slave girl to his pit bulls (I mean sleen). If it's the latter, just make it known in the community that you have met him, and occasionally refer offhandedly to the time you met him in conversation. Any girl who is thinking of meeting him will probably seek you out and ask you what you think, at which time you can tell her. Guys like that don't usually last all that long anyway. Being "Gorean" is just their latest "get a girl" scheme, and when they find out that its not the pussy magnet it seemed to be, they'll try something else.

Malkinius -> RE: off line on line (1/7/2007 1:04:35 AM)
Greetings Ygraine.... quote: ORIGINAL: ygraine Evening everyone, I have been thinking about the number of people who call themselves Gorean and who espouse the Gorean ethos on-line but when push comes to shove and they meet off line, or arrange to, suddenly all the rules change? Have you ever been in a situation where you had arranged to meet someone, or had invited them to a gathering or a dinner or something and found they were not what they said they were? Sometimes they dont even show up at all. I think it is important, vital even, to be the person off-line that you purport to be on-line. That includes all members of the Gorean community. I think you would be surprised by the acceptance you get from others when you are just yourself. That being said, the opposite is also true. If you are not the person you said you are, a deeply submissive woman with a slave heart, a man in charge of his own destiny, a respectful free woman, then I feel you should not represent yourself as such in this or any forum, off line or on. Have any of you had experiences where you met "Goreans" off line and found them not to be Gorean at all? If so, what did you do? Do you think others need to be informed or does it really matter? If so, how do you do that without slamming someone personally? Do we have any responsibility to the rest of the community to alert others to this kind of ....well...basically...lying? I am interested in your comments, suggestions, ideas, and thoughts. Well wishes, Y I hold public Gorean gatherings twice a year and effectively run a monthly meeting for Goreans once a month in the Chicago area. I have gone from coast to coast to meet people who were Gorean or who were interested in Gor. I have met over 100 people this way in the last 7 years. More than half were offline what they seemed to be online. That includes people who claimed to be Gorean and those who did not. In my experience, most of those who were not offline what they were online claimed to be Gorean. Some of them doing so for many years. Many people said they were going to show up for the events I have held or attended and were no shows. This is pretty common. I usually expect about half who say they are interested to find some reason for not showing up. Sometimes they really have good reasons. Mostly they are afraid to come out from behind their computers and let someone else see who and what they really are. With a very few exceptions, I do not go out of my way to say someone I have met is or is not Gorean. I will give my opinion of them if asked. Most of the people I have met are reasonably good people whether they claimed or I thought they were Gorean or not. Some of the best people were not Gorean. A few have become what I would call Gorean, some have not. I consider my responsibility to make a place were people can meet others safely. This is part of my fulfillment of a vow I made years ago to give back more than I gained from that very amorphous thing called the Gorean community. Be well.... Malkinius

ygraine -> RE: off line on line (1/7/2007 5:34:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leonidas In other words, your impression of him was that he wasn't a Gorean man, he was just some lonely guy who is trying to use Gor to get chics. The former, in my experience, is pretty rare. The latter is fairly common. You meet him online, and he seems all kind of manly and masterly, but then in person he's just some guy who wants a girlfriend and a little kinky (or not so kinky) sex. It's not that you felt threatened, just disappointed. Thank you for your reply. I agree this is not the venue for "outing" people, it would disrespect this board. I disagree though on the "disappointment" part. Some times HNG and pseudo slaves prey on people and take them on emotional rides and mind f***'s. Then they back off when some other level, like real life, is needed.That is not disappointment; it can be devastating. This is not a theory sadly, I have seen it happen. So-called Masters show up (maybe) as weak married liars or the darling slave is some 350 pound guy. (By the way, please do not take this as a tirade on people of size, I am not commenting on that, I am only saying: be yourself whatever you are.) Of course there is always the old addage: "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me"

ygraine -> RE: off line on line (1/7/2007 5:46:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius Greetings Ygraine.... With a very few exceptions, I do not go out of my way to say someone I have met is or is not Gorean. I will give my opinion of them if asked. Most of the people I have met are reasonably good people whether they claimed or I thought they were Gorean or not. Some of the best people were not Gorean. A few have become what I would call Gorean, some have not. I consider my responsibility to make a place were people can meet others safely. This is part of my fulfillment of a vow I made years ago to give back more than I gained from that very amorphous thing called the Gorean community. Be well.... Malkinius Thank you Malkinius for your reply. We are nearly neighbors! Wise words and I can tell they come from someone with a lot of off-line experience! As to people who are not Gorean, I have no issue with that at all! (many people who are not Gorean, in fact, really are..((grins)). Ever see that? They just don't have a label for it. I feel strongly though, at this point in my journey, about the importance of taking the "reality" of the Gorean ethos and applying it to life. I guess I get upset when people use it for their own nefarious purposes. Thank you again! I wish you well. Y

Leonidas -> RE: off line on line (1/7/2007 6:45:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ygraine Some times HNG and pseudo slaves prey on people and take them on emotional rides and mind f***'s. Then they back off when some other level, like real life, is needed.That is not disappointment; it can be devastating. This is not a theory sadly, I have seen it happen. So-called Masters show up (maybe) as weak married liars or the darling slave is some 350 pound guy. (By the way, please do not take this as a tirade on people of size, I am not commenting on that, I am only saying: be yourself whatever you are.) Of course there is always the old addage: "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" If you're "devistated" (as opposed to just disappointed) by the discovery that some guy isn't what he said he was online when you meet him, it's a sure sign that you're investing way too much of yourself in online interaction. Yes, I've seen that too. I have literally seen girls spend years of their lives with an "online master" only to learn that she had been serving an online persona. Don't do that, and if you do, take a little of the responsiblity for having done it. A girl seeking a master should use online for what it's good for, that is to make her existance and desires known to men that she might otherwise never meet. If you meet a man online who claims to be interested in owning a girl, and interested in you, things should progress in a rather linear fashion from talking online to meeting to him owning you. If they don't, it's a pretty good sign that something is amiss. If you engage in online roleplay, you're engaging in online roleplay, and you need to remember that you are interacting with folks who like to roleplay, which is in effect taking on a persona that may be partly or wholly not them. You need to be ever aware that you are roleplaying, and it could be anyone behind that persona that you are playing with, their assertions notwithstanding. If it ever goes past roleplaying, that's a bonus, and what I said in the paragraph above this one applies. Online is tricky, there are no two ways about it. If you want to do a service to the community, forget about outing or spreading the word about HNGs and councel new girls that you meet along the lines that I just counceled you. By doing so, you'll be depriving the HNG of his prey. The reverse of what I said above goes for men seeking slaves online too, of course.

Another -> RE: off line on line (1/7/2007 7:15:43 AM)
Tal and greetings, I too have met many from on line, and while some I have met are exactly what they portray, there are unfortunately also many who are not. What I cannot understand is why, why do some feel the need to lie. Women and men, there is no gender specific here, I have had the occasion to witness lying in both genders. What I also know to be true, is in the end character will out. No one ever has to “out” a person, they themselves will show their nature, regardless of what persona they try to portray. Sadly, it is usually at the expense of others. I wish you well, Liz

Maahsatti -> RE: off line on line (1/7/2007 11:14:00 AM)
Hi Cath, I would like to point out , that we in the online venue's hold people to their word, Do we not? We hold each other as well as other claimed Goreans to the standards of the philosophies we who claim to live a Gorean lifestyle, live by. If we do this online and do not do it off line, then we ourselves are not who and what we claim to be.When we do not hold each other to the same standards off line, we open a window ,allowing us and others to possably get hurt. You know I had such an experience almost 5 yrs ago, it was a very ugly situation.The only good that came of it as you well know, is my lil firecracker. (laughs)To me this is a perfect example of a black and white issue, there is no and should BE no grey area. Fully expect, people to be who and what they claim and hold them to it. In other words. Be Gorean or Be Gone winks Take care Babs

Malkinius -> RE: off line on line (1/7/2007 12:24:32 PM)
Greetings Maahsatti.... quote: ORIGINAL: Maahsatti Hi Cath, I would like to point out , that we in the online venue's hold people to their word, Do we not? We hold each other as well as other claimed Goreans to the standards of the philosophies we who claim to live a Gorean lifestyle, live by. If we do this online and do not do it off line, then we ourselves are not who and what we claim to be.When we do not hold each other to the same standards off line, we open a window ,allowing us and others to possably get hurt. You know I had such an experience almost 5 yrs ago, it was a very ugly situation.The only good that came of it as you well know, is my lil firecracker. (laughs)To me this is a perfect example of a black and white issue, there is no and should BE no grey area. Fully expect, people to be who and what they claim and hold them to it. In other words. Be Gorean or Be Gone winks Take care Babs The problem is that the longer you interact with people online in a Gorean context, the more cynical you can become. This is why I say to verify, then trust. It is also why I assume everyone new is not what they claim to be until I have some proof that they are. Regretfully, that assumption proves right more often than wrong. The interesting thing is, I have found that it is more true among those who claim to be free than those who claim to be slave. Now why do you think that is? Be well..... Malkinius

MercTech -> RE: off line on line (1/7/2007 2:03:53 PM)
It is a risk to meet someone in real life that you have only known from online interaction. When you find that their online persona is a puffed up resume, make like a good HR department and fire the ones that falsified their credentials. I have a feeling that most profiles are factual, just not the whole story. Of the few from collarme I have met in real life, only the Goreans have actually been as represented. Of course, I haven't met all that many yet. Steven

Maahsatti -> RE: off line on line (1/8/2007 12:10:43 PM)
Hello Malkinius, Indeed, I agree, it does happen moreso with Free for some reason. My take on it? 1.Men are henpecked at home and have no real control in their off line lives, so they look for it online and play at it, while the tower is turned on, so to speak. 2. Likewise with women, only to a differant aspect. housewives at home, most work as well has handle the kids and home affairs, they are aching to let the man in their life take the reighns, so to speak. to be able to give total control over to a strong man. yet they come on line with this wanted submission and can not quite maintain it. not when they are so used to controling at home.I coud get so much more detailed in this, but I will not and save you all from a big yawn...lol..anyways, I hope some of this made sense. I wish you well Maahsatti

xBullx -> RE: off line on line (1/8/2007 2:45:23 PM)
OK, OK, so I hit the wrong button while I was trying to edit the paragraph indentation...

xBullx -> RE: off line on line (1/8/2007 2:50:53 PM)
Tal Y, I’m going to start out by assuming you had no intension of outing anyone, but rather the state of affairs of moral character of those portraying themselves as Gorean, or even portraying themselves as real people. I have in fact had that happen on more than one occasion. I would guess since it is a main premise of Goreans to value honorable conditions; it would be no small matter if those that falsely claiming to be something they are not, would annoy the shit out of us. It is simple to just dismiss this behavior as internet activity and go on with your life. The, I can’t control it so let’s pretend it doesn’t exist, doesn’t seem like an all to good approach. Now I can’t assume that in posing this question you are speaking of anyone in particular since you have spoken in very general terms. So I hope I am correct in thinking I could apply this to how it would effect me versus speculate upon how your potential dealings with another individual. I actually think rather highly as to Malkinius’ response to your question. If it is real people that we wish to meet we should just hold them to the ultimate form of accountability. Meet them and do it in an absolutely less than to private venue if safety is any bit a concern. To host meetings and gatherings has been effective for me and my friends I have made. I have grown very close to some after meeting them, interacting and spending time with them. I have encountered many, frauds as I call them online, there are normally red flags with these people, I am getting better at it, but most often I don’t see the red flags until I spot them with hindsight. That isn’t too productive when it comes to saving time and emotion. I was just recently what I call played by a girl. It wasn’t very expensive lesson and if I would have been having a good week I would have never even gave it a second thought and just blown it off as another lonely fantasizing female. As it turns out I was crabby for a day or two. Since it looks like this is a general question I’ll tell you what a very intelligent and dear friend off mine told me. I was annoyed that I seem to be to trusting in the word of people; and even if I don’t overly invest emotionally or financially ( I travel a great deal and I can somewhat pick where I’m off to, though I tend to follow the loot) in my online interactions, I take people at face value and believe that they are what they claim. That the words they utter are for the most part, true. I have it posted in my profile I have no use for fictional relationships, even if not those words. I am about the reality of life. I don’t care if people play games, just move on by in the night if you are, I’m not interested. Well I got stood up by a “slave” this last weekend, (no not the one mentioned in my profile, she isn’t due to stand me up until tomorrow –chuckles-) I had met a girl online here in CM, she was very pleasing and really wanted to meet me, I told her to be careful of what she wished for. Well I was closer to her than she knew. I set up a meeting with her and we exchanged details, I mean lots of details, she wanted to make me dinner, she was going to have a friend there, another slave. I suppose that gave her security to meet me. She asked right down to how I like my veggies cooked. Just lots of things that would lend to a serious meeting. In my mind. Well, I had to go a bit out of my way, but hell not far. So I go to the town and poof, she doesn’t even exist. If she did, no form of people or medium knew her. I didn’t check close as to her story, and it really isn’t a big loss I didn’t. But it pissed me off that I let some phony wench play me like that, I doubt it would have if I had been having a better week. But, none the less, when I was talking to my friend about this, I said, that’s it. I’m going to become one those huge Gorean Pricks. I’m going to become cynical and not believe in anyone. And then she hit me with an important fact. She said don’t you dare, or something to the effect. She told me my problem wasn’t a problem at all. It was that I was generally a good person and a good person doesn’t see the world through deceitful eyes, the good person automatically sees others as inherently good, they take things at face value. Hell, I wouldn’t lie to someone, why would someone want to lie to me. She said don’t you dare change who you are. I guess she must love me. Well, she was right, now, I’ll tell you this, I may have a childlike sense of trust, but I am also a cunning and learning warrior. I don’t fall for things over and over. Though I have succumb to the adage of fool me twice before. Damn it anyway. If you’re a girl that has hopes to belong to me, you will go through a ever more intense trial and examination by yours truly, if that offends you I guess you it is a damn good chance there is a reason it does, you’re hiding something. Hell I open all doors to those that want to know me; assuming I want to know them. So in conclusion it sucks these people, these frauds exist. But, they are always going to be there I fear. We learn and like was mentioned here teach those of the frauds personally and teach the others how to recognize them. We are a community and the welfare of our community is OUR responsibility. If we don’t attempt to ward away the rogue wolves our pack is doomed to failure. If we don’t teach the pack to hunt then it is again doomed. I told you this again long and boring story to make you think about the facts of it, not to learn about my trivial pursuits. Others in this thread have given you guidance; I have offered you food for thought. Being a Gorean isn’t easy. If you think what it means to us, it isn’t supposed to be easy. You’re going to meet those that will chastise and wrong you. It is about your personal nobility and integrity that brings you back swinging and insuring that our way doesn’t become extinct, yes we are vulnerable. Yes, we will face trials. Yes we will be met by success. Yes, we are Gorean. Live well, my friends, Bull Damn, I can be long winded. Did anyone else notice this?

Camerius -> RE: off line on line (1/8/2007 3:30:46 PM)
I have seen worse attempts that this one, Bull, by folks trying to reason and sort their own views and thoughts on matters, some was longer, some much longer, and some even gotten deleted because they thought it too long. At least it's good to see an unbroken line of reasoning, good or bad, that shows that there has been put thoughtfullness in it. No one here is going for the Nobel price in Litterature, what is done instead, to bigger or lesser degrees of achivement of the posters, are to have clearifications and personal insights in getting an better hold on all of this stuff that makes up what is Gorean and what the Philosophy is about. Some does this to finding out what are behind it to answer themselfs, while others does it to get a point out to others. It's all a learning process, and the only way to get there is to get there on your own. Be well Camerius

nephandi -> RE: off line on line (1/8/2007 3:40:33 PM)
i am sorry to hear of the woman that stood you up Master, i hope you will find somone that is not a lier that will pleese you. What i dont understand is why did she go to so mutch trubble just to lie, why as aboute your vegtables, why not come clean when she understood you lived rather near her Master so she could not keep up the lie. i will never understand what the trill is to lie to pepole.

xBullx -> RE: off line on line (1/8/2007 3:51:22 PM)
Hello Nephandi, I doubt I will ever understand the reasoning behind this. If it made sense to me, I'd most likely have never been there. But don't feel sorry for me. I have no use for pity and its a waste of emotion on your part. I told this story to give you something to think about and maybe make it easier to deal with your emotions if it would ever happen to you. Serve well girl, Bull

Maahsatti -> RE: off line on line (1/8/2007 4:25:14 PM)
Greetings, sweet nephandi, I have seen and experienced, as well, those type of people,Bull has encountered. Some people lie for a thrill and to see how far they can get, then recieve joy at the expense of other's feelings. Some people lie, because they lack the confidence in themselves and when the time approaches that the person they lied to, wants to meet them, they tell one lie over another to try and sustain the original lie or lies. When finally backed in a corner they seem to think thay can't get out of, it is easier for them to just lie right down to the very last moment and let the person discover it on their own,so they do not have to explain in person or even online. They essentially trap themselves and do not have the courage to come clean. Usually after they are discovered by the person lied to, they run and hide and hope never to be discovered by this person again. Those are very sad people indeed. I, over the years, have become quite the cynic, unfortunately.I trust little and when I do meet someone new, it takes a long time for me to establish, any type of trusting relationship. Even still, with my cynisism, I have still been fooled. People are people,dear. some good, some not and some just do not know which way is up...laughs I work everyday to try and become less suspicious and cynical, because I feel in the end, I only hurt myself to remain as such, but lets face it, those emotions and reactions are an intergrated life support system anyways. They prevent us from getting and or feeling hurt, so it has it's good place within ourselves. " In the Gorean tongue, stranger means enemy"If someone wants to get to know me and or become a part of my life, then they must prove themselves to be worth it. ie.,Reliable, honest and sincere and likewise if I want to be a part of someone's life.It is a 2 way street. Serve and be most well, nephandi Mistress Maahsatti

ygraine -> RE: off line on line (1/8/2007 4:27:02 PM)
1. yes a bit long winded! 2. you eat vegetables?

ardelle -> RE: off line on line (1/9/2007 5:10:02 AM)
Greetings Mistress it would indeed be wonderful if every person behind the pixels on the screen were just as sincere as the one reaching out; however, many have come to realize that the INTERNET gives them a special bonus. The shield of anonymity, and a reason to be less than honest while behind that shield. it is sometimes hard to remember that while one adheres to a code of common decency, not all are of the same code. It is a sad realization, but one that is there none-the-less.

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