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subsa -> 'suffering' (1/12/2007 2:47:30 PM)
i read a lot of threads here about various punishments, humiliations etc...that seem to cause a type of suffering for the sub/slave. i'm curious if (as a sub/slave) you feel this is necessary or beneficial for growth in your submission? it's something i'm curious about because i don't feel that i 'suffer'. i like the physical 'pain' sorts of things and Master is very careful about the humiliation sorts of things. we do them to push my limits but (as Master feels this is a potentially harmful and unrecoverable act if done incorrectly) we go very slowly. so i don't feel i 'suffer' in this aspect either. lately i've been thinking that i need to 'suffer' to see what its like. will i rebel? will i find my suffering enhances my feelings of submission to my Master? i'd like to get some input from others before i bring it up to Master because i know he will ask me what sorts of things i think we should try and i'm not sure what to tell him. any ideas? do you think this is a good idea?

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 2:53:17 PM)
A lot of subs get off on suffering and martydom- some even go so far as to say that it's not "real submission" if you're enjoying it! We do feel we've gained more from something if we've had to suffer for it. I think experiencing suffering is something we'll likely go through whether we actively initiate it or not- suffering at the hands of a flogger might be different than suffering at the hands of a tornado, but it's still there. And personally, I'll take the one who can deal with the tornado issue. I think it's perfectly understandable to want to be pushed and to want to feel past the pleasure point, if for not other reason than to "see what will happen"- in fact Subsa, my partner often has that exact perspective on scenes so you may get a lot out of talking with him about it. Trust me, I can make you suffer pretty badly in two seconds with a good nerve pinch. Suffering doesn't have to be damaging, slow, or serious. I think what you are more interested is the process of growth under pressure.

bandit25 -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 2:57:21 PM)
I don't know. I don't think I suffer either and I have no desire to do so. I think I'm an OK sub. Maybe others would find it beneficial. I don't think I would. Course I'm pretty much of a choice kinda person...I either do it or I don't. I know there are consequences for both actions. But, I'm ok with that.

subsa -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 2:58:38 PM)
as i know you're both switches, is he on the giving or receiving end of things as relates to that perspective?

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 3:06:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subsa as i know you're both switches, is he on the giving or receiving end of things as relates to that perspective? Receiving. On the giving end he's way more about evoking reactions.

NaughtyPrincess -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 3:12:17 PM)
*I need to suffer...need to sacrifice...see how much i can endure. Not only makes me a better* *submissive/slave but a better person all around.*

lateralist1 -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 3:23:46 PM)
It's easy for me as a Domme and for any sub/slave who I own or play with. If I think it is necessary in the relationship for me to discipline I do. It is expected because it is part of the consensual relationship. If you do switch as has been suggested then who disciplines who? However your master may just be a little nervous of harming you or the relationship in which case the only thing you can do is to reassure him that if he thinks it's necessary to discipline you at some point then it is ok with you. If the relationship is really good and you know he wouldn't mind you could act up on purpose so that he feels justified lol. I quite like smart arsed subs once my authority is clearly accepted. I met a gay couple in Greece once while on holiday. They swopped around each month but it seemed obvious to me that one was Dom and one was sub. Maybe you need to talk about your relationship some more.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 3:25:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lateralist1 If you do switch as has been suggested then who disciplines who? My partner and I switch. As far as I know, Subsa and her dom do not switch. We discipline eachother.

bandit25 -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 3:28:11 PM)
Maybe I am missing something here. The OP talked about suffering. Discipline does not necessarily equal suffering, does it?

subsa -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 4:27:28 PM)
bandit, that's what i'm not sure about. from what i read there are many who do suffer. most from physical aspects. it is an integral part of their submission. they suffer, and sacrifice for their Master. i sacrifce often...but i don't suffer. literalist...as LA said; we don't switch. Master is not afraid to punish or discipline me. my discipline comes in the form of being ignored, or corner time. corporal punishment is really a reward for me so that would reinforce bad behavior. the harm Master is concerned about is the psychological damage that can come from pushing the mental boundaries too far or too fast. those types of wounds are deep and can take a long time to heal.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 5:21:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross A lot of subs get off on suffering and martydom- some even go so far as to say that it's not "real submission" if you're enjoying it! We do feel we've gained more from something if we've had to suffer for it. I don't think that suffering or the desire to suffer has anything to do with submission at all. If I can throw your own words, LA, suffering doesn't have anything to do with a transfer of authority (I so LOVE that phrase!). It has everything to do with people playing in the shadow of the Martyr and Victim archetypes. Some people are just happier when there is drama and/or they are miserable. And, I don't necessarily think that suffering is linked to endurance either. The endurance of pain for someone or something doesn't mean you suffer...it means you experience pain and work to get through it. For me, suffering is an emotional thing and is often a choice of the person to experience. Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Master Fire Master Fire

subsa -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 5:41:17 PM)
LA...yes, maybe that's it...growth under pressure...that's what the psychological aspects are really about. maybe what i'm needing is a good hard push in one of 'those' directions and i should suggest He not be so worried about damage?

Celeste43 -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 7:13:20 PM)
I'm not into pain and neither is he. We're into bondage. As far as being pushed past my limits goes I have asked for rougher things at times and been refused. One thing I have learned is that you can't really trust me while in a scene to know what's best. I have begged to not be untied and been untied anyway to then discover that a limb went numb without my noticing it. He notices the color and temperature and makes that decision. If he thinks you do better not suffering and instead growing slowly at a pace you can more easily handle, then why not submit to his decision as to what is the right thing to do. You'll get to the same point but maybe a few more months down the line. This sounds a little like sub frenzy, the desperate urge to try everything right away.

subsa -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 7:17:33 PM)
perhaps your right and its is sub frenzy. but i'm starting to think its that i've been trying to get someplace down the wrong road. i'm not gonna get there through physical pain...

bandit25 -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 7:23:14 PM)
Me either. I don't really suffer. He doesn't do anything that I suffer from. We're into rope bondage and yeah, sometimes it's a bit tight and uncomfortable or I'm uncomfortable in certain positions, but I wouldn't call it suffering. In fact, I have this breathing jones and there are times I am in distress, but He doesn't make me suffer. LOL! Prolly cuz I'm hyperventilating. He loosens the gag or whatever and we're back at it. The other stuff? Yeah, I cry, but I still don't see (or interpret) it as suffering.

ownedgirlie -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 7:25:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross A lot of subs get off on suffering and martydom- some even go so far as to say that it's not "real submission" if you're enjoying it! We do feel we've gained more from something if we've had to suffer for it. I don't think that suffering or the desire to suffer has anything to do with submission at all. If I can throw your own words, LA, suffering doesn't have anything to do with a transfer of authority (I so LOVE that phrase!). It has everything to do with people playing in the shadow of the Martyr and Victim archetypes. Some people are just happier when there is drama and/or they are miserable. And, I don't necessarily think that suffering is linked to endurance either. The endurance of pain for someone or something doesn't mean you suffer...it means you experience pain and work to get through it. For me, suffering is an emotional thing and is often a choice of the person to experience. Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Master Fire Master Fire Master Fire Ma'am, I beg to differ. I love suffering for my Master, and this has nothing to do with drama or even physical pain. I miss him and I suffer for him. I crave him and I suffer in his absense. I am held on the edge of an orgasm for extreme periods of time, and I suffer tearfully from the agony. But all these things, I do quietly. Yes, he knows I am suffering, and he enjoys it. If he has a sadistic streak in him it reveals itself here. I will tell him I am suffering for him, and I become very clingy, but at the same time I do not whine to him about it or cry woefully about it. I agonize internally and he knows it. When I do this, I feel him deeply. It's like a spiritual connection to him in many ways. The submission part comes in because I know it is his will for me to endure such agonizations, and therefore I do it as gracefully as I can. He has caused me to suffer for him with physical pain as well. It is no secret that I do not handle pain well. I am far from masochistic, and do not like pain. But he does not restrain me to whip me, or torture my nipples or clit. I am to remain open to him, stay still for him, and cry out only minimally. This, in my opinion, is absolutely submitting to his will. He enjoys the power he holds over me, knowing I *won't* try to pull away, knowing how absolutely difficult such an endeavor is for me. And the more proud he is of me, the stronger I feel his energy, and the more awesome the experience. So it depends on how you are looking at suffering. I understand where you are coming from. There is the "hold the back of your hand to your forehead" woe-is-me type of drama that some people create for themselves. But there is also another side to suffering, that I believe was overlooked. Edited to add to the OP, I have grown much stronger as a person, in part because of what I endure for him.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 7:39:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross A lot of subs get off on suffering and martydom- some even go so far as to say that it's not "real submission" if you're enjoying it! We do feel we've gained more from something if we've had to suffer for it. I don't think that suffering or the desire to suffer has anything to do with submission at all. If I can throw your own words, LA, suffering doesn't have anything to do with a transfer of authority (I so LOVE that phrase!). It has everything to do with people playing in the shadow of the Martyr and Victim archetypes. Some people are just happier when there is drama and/or they are miserable. And, I don't necessarily think that suffering is linked to endurance either. The endurance of pain for someone or something doesn't mean you suffer...it means you experience pain and work to get through it. For me, suffering is an emotional thing and is often a choice of the person to experience. Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Master Fire Master Fire Master Fire Ma'am, I beg to differ. I love suffering for my Master, and this has nothing to do with drama or even physical pain. I miss him and I suffer for him. I crave him and I suffer in his absense. I am held on the edge of an orgasm for extreme periods of time, and I suffer tearfully from the agony. But all these things, I do quietly. Yes, he knows I am suffering, and he enjoys it. If he has a sadistic streak in him it reveals itself here. I will tell him I am suffering for him, and I become very clingy, but at the same time I do not whine to him about it or cry woefully about it. I agonize internally and he knows it. When I do this, I feel him deeply. It's like a spiritual connection to him in many ways. The submission part comes in because I know it is his will for me to endure such agonizations, and therefore I do it as gracefully as I can. He has caused me to suffer for him with physical pain as well. It is no secret that I do not handle pain well. I am far from masochistic, and do not like pain. But he does not restrain me to whip me, or torture my nipples or clit. I am to remain open to him, stay still for him, and cry out only minimally. This, in my opinion, is absolutely submitting to his will. He enjoys the power he holds over me, knowing I *won't* try to pull away, knowing how absolutely difficult such an endeavor is for me. And the more proud he is of me, the stronger I feel his energy, and the more awesome the experience. So it depends on how you are looking at suffering. I understand where you are coming from. There is the "hold the back of your hand to your forehead" woe-is-me type of drama that some people create for themselves. But there is also another side to suffering, that I believe was overlooked. Edited to add to the OP, I have grown much stronger as a person, in part because of what I endure for him. As I said, suffering is optional. I'm fairly sure, though, that that is all about symmantics. What you're calling suffering, I call endurance. Master Fire

juliaoceania -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 8:01:26 PM)
quote: i read a lot of threads here about various punishments, humiliations etc...that seem to cause a type of suffering for the sub/slave. i'm curious if (as a sub/slave) you feel this is necessary or beneficial for growth in your submission? It is not necessary for me, although it did lead to growth in the past. All painful situations can lead to growth if viewed from a perspective of love, light, and positivity. I choose to have someone in my life that does not cause me emotions that I perceive as "suffering". There is either a pleasant feeling, or a not pleasant feeling in my opinion. I enjoy physical pain, technically I do not suffer when it is inflicted on me. Now for you in your relationship, only you can decide what is beneficial to you in conjunction with your master.

ownedgirlie -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 8:05:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam As I said, suffering is optional. I'm fairly sure, though, that that is all about symmantics. What you're calling suffering, I call endurance. Master Fire Those things that are required of me are not optional. Suffering is defined as "to submit or be forced to endure." Endure is defined as "to undergo without giving in; to suffer." I use those definitions when I speak of them. But yes, I do see that different emotional emphasis can be placed on one word over the other.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: 'suffering' (1/12/2007 9:16:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Suffering is defined as "to submit or be forced to endure." Endure is defined as "to undergo without giving in; to suffer." I use those definitions when I speak of them. But yes, I do see that different emotional emphasis can be placed on one word over the other. I also think certain peoples background and training throughout life can bring them to this place of processing suffering in this way. Similarly to when novices "need" to act up in order to "deserve" the spanking they get. As long as it's processed properly and leads people to a place of strength and fulfillment- I think it's cool. And as long as they don't try and tell me that my vision of never suffering or enduring isn't "real submission."

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