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Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility?


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Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/26/2007 2:25:15 PM   
ygraine


Posts: 674
Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline 		I did not want to "hijack" Another's thread by posting this, so I will start anew.
Do you feel personal responsibility is dead?
Everywhere you look you see people not accepting responsibility for their actions.  I see it in my students, I see it in my peers, I see it in my my superiors.  To me, it is one of the foundations of society that we accept what we did wrong and try to right it, or think about the consequences of our actions.  Sadly, I see little of that in everyday life. 
What attracts me to Goreans is that most of them own their problems and accept their roles and responsibilities for their families, for their slaves,  and most importantly for themselves.  Am I just romaticizing this concept with Goreans? Am I way off base here?
I wish you well.
Y

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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/26/2007 2:38:56 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings ...
 
My view is that you are probably just romanticizing. The Goreans you interact with are probably your friends and cohorts. You see them through these eyes. I see my friends the same way.
 
Personal responsibility/accountability, are obviously very important, and obviously Gorean virtues. They are also very important life virtues. Everyone would love to say they possess each in great measure, but being imperfect creatures, we undoubtedly fall short, each for our own reasons, and according to our individual gifts.
 
Thanks ... cc 

(in reply to ygraine)
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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/26/2007 3:01:58 PM   
chainedfarida


Posts: 101
Joined: 1/6/2007
Status: offline 		i agree with caitlyn, many goreans that i have encountered do not live up to their actions. And as humans we do fall short, i think

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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/26/2007 5:00:44 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		Whilst I cannot comment about goreans, I am in total agreement with the OP as regards society in general. On a personal level I do not claim to be gorean at all, but many of the concepts (as I understand them) are things I hold dear including responsibility for my self, my actions and those in my charge or care

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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/26/2007 5:25:48 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Evening Y,

Unfortunately we do live in a society that seems to have developed a victim mentality.  It becomes really obvious when you look at the schools and corrections institutions.  It has also lead to many of our children being overmedicated, and over diagnosed with ADD and ADHD, when what is missing is some discipline and self responsibility.  If you read any transcripts from criminal trials, many of the defenses are I came from a bad neighborhood, I was abused, its their fault that I turned out this way.

It goes even further than this though, many schools of thought have done away with rewarding children and adults for success, because it will hurt the other kids/peoples feelings.  Taking away the lessons of success and failure from the young they grow up striving for mediocrity. 

To touch on something caitlyn said, the question is not whether somebody screws up or not, it is a question of whether they take responsibility for that screw up.  I have failed in the past, and am sure I will fall short in the future.  The blame is my own.  This however does not stop me from striving to succeed in those areas in the future, and the only way to do so is to accept the mistakes I have made and to learn from them.

I wish you well,
Thadius

P.S. I am not sure that it is a romanticized notion, although it seems to be a fading one in light of the way society is headed.

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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/26/2007 6:02:32 PM   
Ariston


Posts: 59
Joined: 8/31/2006
Status: offline 		Am going through some training for the army -- and it has been an eyeopener.  We've discussed how to instill Army values in soldiers - and I get "it ain't the fault of the leaders, it ain't the fault of the drill sergeants - it's the fault of their parents for not teaching them better to begin with.

We've discussed leadership issues in the Army today -- and "regulations tie our hands, so we can't do what we need to do with the soldiers to teach them discipline or make them do their jobs."  Again the litany - it ain't the fault of the leaders, drill sergeants, but the fault of the parents --  and yet - for the couple of soldiers who stated - "don't give a damn what the regs 'allow', or who had the private before me  - I am a noncommissioned officer, and I will find a way to teach the soldier or get the soldier to perform.  Those type of statements were met with "right on" and then back to the woe is me.

it seems it is ok to have and know the army values - which center on personal accountability, pay lip-service -- but ...... seems very few are willing to put themselves on the line.

How does that apply to Goreans --- theres a whole bunch claiming to be Gorean -- but darn few that really are.

Jon


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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/27/2007 9:29:22 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7330
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Y,

I believe that accepting personal responsibility is a foundation principle of being Gorean. I believe that people should always strive to stay true to their principles. I believe that some strive more than others. I have never seen anyone in my life accept personal responsibility 100% of the time. I believe that sometimes emotional issues may cause us not to see where our responsibility is, and it often takes alot of introspection and hindsight to see it. I believe that you then take what you learn and apply it to the future. I believe that everyone should set the bar high and continually try to attain it.

Romanticizing it? I don't think so. I think maybe everyone, myself included, always need to strive harder to attain that bar. Even if we fall short once, we should never use this to lessen the importance of pushing even harder to attin those bars. Where ever the bar is set, once it is attained, it should be set even higher.


Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine

I did not want to "hijack" Another's thread by posting this, so I will start anew.
Do you feel personal responsibility is dead?
Everywhere you look you see people not accepting responsibility for their actions.  I see it in my students, I see it in my peers, I see it in my my superiors.  To me, it is one of the foundations of society that we accept what we did wrong and try to right it, or think about the consequences of our actions.  Sadly, I see little of that in everyday life. 
What attracts me to Goreans is that most of them own their problems and accept their roles and responsibilities for their families, for their slaves,  and most importantly for themselves.  Am I just romaticizing this concept with Goreans? Am I way off base here?
I wish you well.
Y

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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/27/2007 10:21:30 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16628
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Tal,

I'm in general agreement with Thadius and Orion on this topic.

Playing the victim is a useful strategy to a point--a victim has no personal responsibility, so that person's behavior is off the hook. It's my parents' fault, it's my teachers'/professors' fault, it's the government's fault, it's the media's fault, it's society's fault--easy to play the victim, isn't it? You don't have to do anything because it's all out of your hands. Easy! But what happens next? Who knows! You'll just have to bitch about whatever it is later. More victimization. Not your fault.

I like the way Stephen Covey portrays responsibility--"response-ability." We often can't control what happens--but we CAN control how we respond, and that reponse will affect what happens next. It's about YOU, not them.

Nor do I mean this idealistically--positive thinking isn't going to solve real life problems. However, we can learn, change, adjust. My T'ai Chi Master, T.T. Liang, used to continually preach "Invest in loss." He meant that to master anything, including T'ai Chi, don't be afraid to fail. Get knocked down. Get up. Get knocked down again. Get up. Get knocked down again. Eventually, you will learn-----and he certainly wouldn't tell us how!!!! It was up to us. Later, when at a large T'ai Chi convention, many, many people were practicing flashy and intimidating forms (like karate kata), but whenever I faced them one on one, they rushed in, I yielded, and they went flying. A similar example is the professional basketball coach (I'm sorry--I forgot who!) who made his players practice layups--an easy, basic shot--over and over and over. As a professional musician, I can also tell you that talented amateurs practice lots of flashy passages, while the top professionals practice scales--long and slow, for hours.

I've failed often. I've made multiple mistakes. I've drawn a lot of criticism. I still do. But I also stay focused on the goal. Today, I teach professional writing (as a result of my work as a writer), and my goal is to produce college graduates with the skills to succeed. Many students feel the bar is too high, or that the course isn't always fun. Some faculty feel that students should always feel comfortable and not face challenges in order to maintain self-esteem. But how is "That's OK, dear--I understand you're just not good enough to do this" a way to build self-esteem? It IS, however, certainly a way to ensure an unsuccessful attempt at a career. Anyone can make students feel happy. I get paid to teach, and I'm concerned not with getting them to the next course, but with what happens to them after graduation.

For this, I take a lot of heat, from students, peers, and administration. And also for this, I win support, awards, and promotion. For me, in this area, personal responsibility means can I look at myself in the mirror and say I'm doing the best for my students, not just what would make my life easier. It's not easy. It makes my job harder than required. But it also makes it fulfilling. I want my students to succeed.

Life will never be ideal. But playing the victim is a foolish response. Pay attention to the rules of whatever field in which you're playing. Think outside of the box. Know what you want. Then work toward it, one step at a time.

Anyone can simply complain. That's why it's called the "terrible twos" -- simply bitching that life isn't ideal is something any baby (literally) can claim. But it's not productive, and it's not fulfilling.

Make choices. Decide what you want. Work to make it happen, step by step--and set-back by set-back. Blaming others is fruitless and irresponsible.

Best,

Tim


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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/27/2007 10:35:03 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 1488
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Tal and greetings
 
I do think that taking responsibility for ones own actions is very Gorean.  Yes in our modern vanllia world there is the victim mentality, no one is guilty of anything, also blaming others is a used as well.  And with all the lawyers and PR firms out there to help people avoid their responsibilty as well advances the notion of not having to take responsibility.
 
I wish you well
 
Nosathro

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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/27/2007 1:51:55 PM   
Another


Posts: 172
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Tim,

I really enjoyed your post, thank you.  

I wish you well,

Liz

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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/28/2007 3:13:01 AM   
ygraine


Posts: 674
Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ariston


How does that apply to Goreans --- theres a whole bunch claiming to be Gorean -- but darn few that really are.

Jon




Hello Ariston, always so good to see you!

I see a lot of people who embrace the Gorean lifestyle when it suits them and then back off when it gets to be too much...er responsibility?

Perhaps that is part of the process.   To me, finding the wholistic acceptance of "being Gorean" can take a lot of time.  I know I have struggled with it myself, but I always find myself measuring the world in Gorean terms. I also would be quick to say I have not always accepted personal responsibility but I am getting better at it. It is part of the maturing process, I suspose. 

LOL....I use this phrase with my students: "Who owns this problem?"  I notice after awhile they are a lot better at saying "I do."

Thank you for all the replies to my question.  I am grateful for the perspective of the Goreans on this board, and thank you Bull for introducing it to me. Now I need to go to Message Board Anonymous, but that's ok, too.
Y

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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/28/2007 6:39:45 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10296
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings A/all,
 
I do not feel that personal responsibility is "dead" in our
society, but rather damaged.  Those who maintain
an ethos of personal accountability and who teach it
to their children and others in their life, are to be
commended.
 
 


quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine
Do you feel personal responsibility is dead?


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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/28/2007 6:48:00 AM   
ygraine


Posts: 674
Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline 		Tim, no wonder you teach writing! Thank you for your thoughtful and lyrical post.  As an educator it touched me as well.
Y

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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/28/2007 7:10:21 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		General Response ... Are we sure this isn't one of those "The Good Ol' Days!", topics? A few examples:
 
My foster parents are always telling me about the stuff they used to do when they were in High School ... skip day, getting in fights all the time, etc ... things that would absolutely get you sent to the school for bad kids, in this day and age. My foster dad tells me that as a football stud, he almost didn't need to go to class during football season, to get a passing grade. I know that isn't the case now ... they watch athletes like a hawk.
 
It used to be that you could get a lot of play with things like driving while intoxicated (just one example of many) ... something like two or three offenses before you lost your license. Now, one strike and you're out.
 
Texas, where I live has become one of those 'Right to Work' states, where an employer can basically let you go for any reason, and doesn't even have to tell you what that reason is. They don't even have to offer you a severance package. This is very new, and seems pretty unforgiving.
 
On the point of lawyers ... well, my foster mom is a lawyer and worked for the Houston DA. Her claim is that over zealous prosecutors are the major kink in the system. When you look at the Duke Lacross case, it makes you see her point ... a bunch of lived ruined on evidence that was basically planted. We have a lot of passionate defense lawyers ... perhaps we need them. Perhaps the blame needs to go towards those that falsely accuse, not those that vigorously defend.
 
NOTE: The argument that always comes up is the now famous McDonalds boiling coffee case, where a woman was awarded 2.2 million for spilled coffee. The screamers always say, "what did she think ... that the coffee was going to be cold? Isn't anyone responsible anymore?" ... but fail to point out that the McDonalds in question had been involved in a "Hottest Coffee in Town" campaign with a franchise across the street, and served the woman in question, coffee that was 43 degrees above the boiling point. She was permanently disfigured by this coffee ... to me, the McDonalds got off easy.
 
Please understand ... it's not that I'm disputing anything. I'm twenty years old, so I really don't know how things "used to be" ... but like everything else, all these opinions are just opinions, until some meat gets put with them. If we want this to be a meaningful discussion ... could we get some specific and concrete examples of how responsibility was manifest in the past, but is lacking today?
 
I'm generally interested. 

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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/28/2007 9:00:22 AM   
ygraine


Posts: 674
Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

 coffee that was 43 degrees above the boiling point.

Totally off-topic, but can coffee be 43 degrees above boiling at one atmosphere? I don't think so but maybe an engineer can clarify? I don't think coffee can get that hot without steam and pressure. 

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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/28/2007 9:21:33 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Tim, And others,

 First let me say thanks for a wonderful post. Many are gifted with statistics that are very useful in substantiating ideals and philosophies.  I however love to tie it to personal experience it makes the opinion so much more valid to the Gorean experience and not just some cold statistic that applies to everyone in general. Thanks for the bit of you written here, bravo.

I would like to say I am offended that it was stated here that there are no men or women living to Gorean standards. I think Tim’s examples show clearly that there are men that do and strive to continue as such. To state that failing at times is an example that the ideals Goreans hold dear are unattainable and falsely touted virtues is complete unrealistic and invalid.

To be Gorean, does that imply one must be perfect? Should a man be Godlike in his virtues or should he show the ability to learn, seek self improvement, and grow as a person. Sure a Gorean man is to be unbending in his beliefs, but does that mean as times change, he shouldn’t adapt or change.

 If the weather turns cold, would unbending Gorean refuse to dress with a coat? If he did and got frostbite would it not prove stupid to repeat the task and in turn prove less than Gorean with his commonsense? Is a Gorean, not just a term describing people that think concurrent? Sure at some point we could become communistically oriented. But, it isn’t a religious or genealogical claim; it isn’t a geographical or territorial claim. We value certain philosophies that we assume some others may find less important or that they have abandon all together. We that are Gorean, those of us that aren’t afraid to be seen and identified as such. We have a set standard of what we consider Goreans to be, but it isn’t an exclusive unattainable membership.

Now in theme with what Tim began, I’ll express a bit of the, live by example direction my Gorean beliefs have taken me. Now this is a bit personal, so if you don’t care, stop reading now, Though I will not delve to deep into the subject matter that may compromise any other personal values of other participants.

I was half owner in a rather large livestock transportation company. Though we were a young corporation (9 years or so), we had grown into a rather successful and economically capable enterprise. Our gross revenues were well into the seven digit range and we were growing.  I was the operations officer and seen to the daily operation and dispatch of the trucks. My partner was the logistics officer and seen to the supply and administrational areas. Well as time went by, some things were happening that on the surface I missedor even chose to ignore. I was trying to tend to a few things that needed attended to and discovered some less than ethical practices, as well as other issues that went against my foundational beliefs as a man. A Gorean man.

At a significant loss I got the hell out of a company I no longer believed in. A mess as I seen it. The fact is, many businesses do the very things my partner was becoming rather accomplished at. But just because you can squeeze things in between the lines and they might seem legal doesn’t mean they are what ethical men do. Now, my departure didn’t leave me homeless, I am also accountable to the homestone and my family.

You see in business there are many ways with 401 K’s and cutting benefits and such to accumulate great wealth. But is that really what it’s about? Isn’t that truly the reason we have folks without health care. We blame the George Bush’s of the world, but the fact is, it is we, we the people that are doing it to ourselves. If Wal-Mart has no employees, do they not work on ways to draw some.

You see personal accountability starts with everyone, Gorean or not, the man in the mirror.

I have been offered yet another partnership by a very, very wealthy cattle buyer. His first comment was about fiscal gain and a rapid rise to going public and the money we could make in no time. But he failed to state that there were employees and stockholders that were going to take it in the shorts if we flamed out. Oh, we discussed it, when I pointed it out, but he said, they can get other jobs and stocks come and go daily. I looked him in the eyes and said, “ NOT IN MY NAME THEY DON”T!”

Now this potential company that he proposed, he actually made a business plan in order to impress me, he has a staff so I’m sure one of them did it. But it was projected in the eight digits annually. Am I nuts for not going forward with that, perhaps? However, I will tell you I make good money and I love with my life. So don’t rush to judgment. I’m pretty happy with these choices of honor and integrity as I see them. I am not claiming to have cornered the market on any worldly values, but I’m doing my part to be the best man I can. One that on my last day I can say, I have no regrets. Being a Gorean doesn’t make me the man I am. But being the man I am helps to define my version of being Gorean.

Now the above falls in line with big choice issues, Cailtlyn brings up small everyday issues that we also must be held accountable for, and yes the world is full of, do as I say not as I do. But the moment of truth I guess has to be the next moment when you realize that this may be the wrong way to live your life. So in answer to Caitlyn. Good girl, I’m glad you caught on so soon in life and you have the opportunity to get it right before many of the rest of us did. Don’t become sanctimonious though. Live your life well and with no regrets. Live like your ass is on fire and embrace every gift, every trial, every high point and every hardship you encounter. They are that which will in the end comprise the girl that we all either know and love. Or choose to forget. That experience is in your hands. Yes, Caitly(winks), you may be a Gorean, make sure the man you one day choose to belong to, is as well; you will not be satisfied with anything less.

Take it for what it’s worth, but reading what Tim said, what we see in men like Malkinius, Leonidas, Orion, Thadius, Ariston and others; I’d say that solid values and virtues that would make our females lust are still alive and well. Sure being my friend may shape your views and being other than a friend may in fact shape your view in another direction, but actions do speak loudly, I hope your actions justify your heart and existence.

Live well Goreans,

Bull

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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/28/2007 9:24:22 AM   
Solinear


Posts: 283
Joined: 1/8/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings all,

I think that personal responsibility is one of the cores of Gorean philosophy, though not stated as such.  The phrase "A Free Man does as he wishes" requires the acceptance of personal responsibility.  You have to state what it is that you want and act on it.  This is very attractive to me, though I have a bad habit of failing to take responsibility in certain situations.

As others have alluded to, the desire to explain everything while not laying specific blame, is almost overriding in our societies.  Why does this person lay around doing nothing?  He's got Epstein Barr; as someone who *has* Epstein Barr - I have no problem stating that he lays around doing nothing because he's a lazy ass.  ADHD?  Whatever, if I'm not paying attention, it's my fault and I apologize for not adjusting my focus to my surroundings (I'm not sure if I'm ADHD or something else, I have a habit of hyperfocusing and caffeine used to send me over the top on energy - before the Epstein Barr, so I don't think I have that, though I'm sure some would diagnose me with it).  I'm not going to talk about other situations because I either don't have them or something similar.

As for the coffee 43 degrees over boiling, I think that is referring to it being 255 degrees (43 degrees over the boiling point of water).  When you add 'doping' agents, you generally increase the boiling point of the liquid, so while the boiling point of water is 212 degrees, the boiling point of that coffee (mattering on strength), may have been 270 degrees.  When you consider that she may have not done the 'test sip' and simply went to get a nice full gulp of coffee, she may have been seriously damaged.  If you think about the fact that most cooking books recommend that you cook meat to only 160 degrees at the center (mattering on the meat), she very easily could have been very hurt from this coffee that was well beyond scalding.

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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/28/2007 10:33:18 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hi Cath,
I find myself relating to you in so many ways. I also judge people and actions within Gorean standards and I myself have fell short of portraying the very standards Goreans hold on high.It was within the strengths of those standards, however I was able to over come a lot of those weaknesses and short comings. Am I perfect?. will I go thru life, not failing those standards, again?..No, I am sure I will fall. but thru the unity of the Gorean ethos and philosophies I will be able to pick myself up faster and rise above in even a greater height.While I understand, personal responsability and the other standards known, are not souly a Gorean trait. I feel Goreans take a much firmer stance in upholding and more harshly scrutinize those around them who would claim themselves victoms, over owning up and holding themselves, accountable.
well wishes,
Babs

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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/28/2007 1:01:20 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings ygraine ...
 
Actually you're right ... I meant to say 43 degrees below boiling point. My mistake, and thanks.
 
You can actually get about a zillion Google hits on this case.

edited to add greeting ...  

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 1/28/2007 1:18:11 PM >

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RE: Courtesy Counts, what about personal responsibility? - 1/28/2007 1:12:24 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Solinear
As for the coffee 43 degrees over boiling, I think that is referring to it being 255 degrees (43 degrees over the boiling point of water).  When you add 'doping' agents, you generally increase the boiling point of the liquid, so while the boiling point of water is 212 degrees, the boiling point of that coffee (mattering on strength), may have been 270 degrees.  When you consider that she may have not done the 'test sip' and simply went to get a nice full gulp of coffee, she may have been seriously damaged.  If you think about the fact that most cooking books recommend that you cook meat to only 160 degrees at the center (mattering on the meat), she very easily could have been very hurt from this coffee that was well beyond scalding.


Greetings Master Solinar ...
 
Also keep in mind that in this instance, this poor woman tried to just take her bill for $22,000 to treat her 3rd degree burns, to McDonalds, so they would pay the bills. She didn't initially even ask for damages. McDonalds actually told her to take a hike, which is when she got the lawyers involved.
 
The only real point, was that some examples used of people running from personal responsibility, are exactly the opposite ... and that sometimes lawyers take the blame, when it really falls on those that are not willing to take proper responsibility. In this case, it was McDonalds, not the woman.
 
Another discussion point (this part is a general response), was that my response about romanticizing, was really only meant to be directly in response to ygraine's thoughts:
 
"What attracts me to Goreans is that most of them own their problems and accept their roles and responsibilities for their families, for their slaves,  and most importantly for themselves.  Am I just romaticizing this concept with Goreans? Am I way off base here?"
 
... and not about the whole issue, as stated. The only logical leap, is that people become friends with those that they like, and see those that they like through those eyes.
 
Anyway ... have a great rest of the weekend.

edited to add greeting ...

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 1/28/2007 1:18:54 PM >

(in reply to Solinear)
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