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RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/8/2007 5:30:03 PM   
Another


Posts: 172
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		Even'n Ladies,

How true Jahna, similiar but different, and the line,  while  blurry, remains distinct.  And Ashia, I agree it is different for those that are not fortunate enough to be able to live with their FC. (I think that is what you were saying)   Brule's slave does not live with us on a full time basis, she is here every other weekend, and when she is not here, I am the one picking up the dirty socks, all those fun things.   I think that is one of the reasons I enjoy her being here, I don't do dishes!   And I think I see the line far more when she is here than when she is not here.   

Ah  Babs, yes, you and I have spent many an hour discussing things, this and more.   I am proud and happy to call you friend.  And yes there are bad apples where ever you go.   I always tend to toss them out and move on.  Far more good than bad.

chewsie, exactly, while being free or slave is better for one person, it does make either better or worse.  Ok that does not make sense, let me try again.   What is right for one is not necessarily right for everyone.  It does not make either better or worse, just different.    Clear as mud right?  Good thing we have Jahna and Ashaia to spell things out slowly and eloquently!

I think what I am enjoying on the boards so much is the melting pot of thoughts and perspectives, each one of us on our path.   From the very young to us oldsters.   Many times I read a post, then reread, and am able to look at things in a whole new light.  And while I may not agree with everything, it has given me pause to think.

I wish you well,

Liz

(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/8/2007 6:13:27 PM   
Ashaia


Posts: 239
Joined: 12/31/2006
Status: offline 		Maahsatti,

If you are the same woman I may have met some 6 or so years ago in Yahoo, perhaps knew a Gorean man who liked chocolate milk served... then I can say with all certainty that it is great to see you here 6 years later with the outlook you share boldly, coherantly, and without apology for the process that took you from one step to the next.

I've read so many different comments on your original thread, and I have no idea who has ulterior motives or whatnot,  but no one can draw conclusions based on one time in one person's life because we are not yesteryear, we are our now and our now is a sum total of all of our experiences, good, bad and ugly.

To see any person who's made life choices, followed Gor, and processed what it meant to them personally then embraced it fully, how dare someone else criticize or judge the steps that got such a person from point A to point B.

I don't know who's who in Gorean reputation. I doubt any of us could find anyone who's perfect, perfect in their understanding of Gor, perfect in their understanding of themselves, and perfect in their own lives so they can throw stones at someone else's.

Whether you're the same woman or someone different, and whether Rapture is making this post personal, it really matters little. If we all suddenly lose the privilege of learning, growing, evolving, and changing, then I imagine all of us are equally stuck.

I personally believe we all deserve the chance to be ourselves. Ourselves today is not ourselves in ten years. I look forward to the experiences that get me from my now to my ten years from now. If I am near 40 and dealing with fears of menopause now, what life changes and responsibilities will I have at 50? Who knows? I bet the experiences I have between now and then will certainly help prepare me for them!

I wish ya'll well, free or slave, or Gorean curious/educated, or... who/whatever ya'll are,
Ash

And ya know, in the next 10 years, I might find myself free or slave, or free or slave, or ummm free or slave. I dunno.

(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/8/2007 9:33:46 PM   
Rapture


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		Thadius,

Hate to burst your bubble but I have not been referencing the online world. Perhaps you are not as privy as I am to certain things or the like. Nonetheless, sure there are things in the books that if done would otherwise give a nice 10 x 10 room with bars, yet that does not mean some of those things are invalid or false. The quote i posted certainly applies, some will try to say well it does not because of just one little thing say 'caste', but that really is not the entire meaning of it.

I know your position on the ups and downs. I will make an observation for you take a look at the opposition and who is opposed then compare that with if they have done the ups or downs or "became" fw from slave. These to the most part are those opposed or try to draw some type of distinction or make an excuse or event an opposing theiry and/or that of their respective friends supporting the same. To the most part and not all the time this occurs. Then ask yourself why this occurs. Perhaps, Thadius is because the supporters thereof themselves have done the ups and down or down and up. What else can they really say?

As for me making friends and influencing people, I tend to call a spade a spade with friend and/or foe. My friends understand this of me. That is called Thadius being a straight shooter. My position does not change as the person or persons change or audience-no intended implication. People do not like the answers they really should not ask the question or questions. Yet, failire to ask questions is also a failure to really expand one's knowledge and most of all understanding. Though, Thadius, when some are 'proven' to be incorrect in these online forums they usually get all defensive.

...

Rapture

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Rapture,

I see you are out making friends and influencing people again.  What makes you the authoritative expert on the men and women of the community, let alone on the philosophy?  That was rhetorical.  Anyways,  I agree about the ups and downs of some females, but that is more in the online venues than offline.  Even those that change their names so that they don't have to carry the luggage from their previous incarnations.  It is one thing to quote from the source, it is another thing to apply it to the way you live.  While I have met many that can do an almost sevant like recital of a specific word and how many times it appears through the series, many of them will only see the written word and never be able to connect the dots, so to speak (the context), let alone the philosophy. 

quote:

If you will note, not many other of the regular 'freewomen' or even Men have commented because if they did, it would be almost hypocrital of them to comment and make a case per se or act as if they knew something special. Of some of these people I know their respective histories. Its a small world sometimes.


I am a simple man, and perhaps I am hypocritical because I commented?  I can only speak to that which I have learned and I think my previous comments were pretty accurate concerning the flip flops and or changes in status.

I wish you well,
Thadius

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/8/2007 10:11:24 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Rapture,

Ah so it is more of a personal issue towards a few of the posters.  When it comes down to the brass tax, whether a woman has been on her knees, in a collar, freed, then put back on her knees, really doesn't matter to me.  I can only base my judgements on what I see of her, just as my opinions of men are based on what I personally see.  I could make assumptions on people based on things I have heard, but it may not be an accurate reflection.  Like you said it is a small world, especially in Gorean circles...

What standard should be put to a woman that has been in both roles and is now a FC?  I would suggest the only standard that really matters is the one the man or men in hold her to.  While it is definitely your right to disagree, would you tell another man how he may treat his property or companion?  Or even expect him to listen?

I guess that is where my line is drawn, I don't think it is my place to change the standards or rules of another man's house.  I definitely disagree with alot of what I see out there, and wonder how some of the henpecked castrated men that are wrapped around their slave's finger can look in the mirror and honestly call themselves an owner or the girl a slave; but that is the way they choose to live and it's not my business.

Perhaps, there is just a difference in the reasons we are here.  I am here to discuss, debate, and occasionally argue about the philosophy, ethos, way of life, day to day applications of them, and even learn something in the process.  I have seen those that choose to argue with only people they think they can win against, or even have some personal dirt as leverage on...  They seem to come and go, they lose interest as soon as the attention they receive isn't fulfilling anymore.  I don't think you are that type of person, at least I hope not.  I look forward to some intellectual discourse on the various topics that arise in the future.

Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/8/2007 10:44:23 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Ashaia,
Indeed, I am that same woman. *laughs gently*
I very much agree, no one is perfect, least of all me. I feel people continue to grow in one way or another, right up to the day we pass from this life to our heavenly life. (if we are so lucky, grinz) I look forward to growing into more knowledge and understanding of Gorean philos among many other life lessons, for the rest of my life.
I take something from these boards every time I read and why I enjoy them and the people who post.
I want to thank you, Jahna, Liz, Cath, Thadius and everyone else, who has given me so much to think about on this topic. I am greatful to have had the oportunity to  read everyones views and opinions.

I wish you well,
Maahsatti

< Message edited by Maahsatti -- 2/8/2007 10:45:47 PM >

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to Ashaia)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/9/2007 6:21:37 AM   
Rapture


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		Not personal just addressing the posts that are posted, as well as, some of the embellishment therein.

As it is my right to disagree it is also my right to judge, as you have, as all do judge. Not everything is relevant nor does everything have to be accepted by everyone by everyone else. People hear, people listen, the only thing really of choice is do they heed. If not, then my right as with theirs to take to a sword which comes in many fashions and forms. This does not mean though one must or is required to but certainly the right of the Man to do so. IF you wish to limit yourself then that is your position, your right, and your choice.

I give you these to ponder:

"Leadership can't be a popularity contest. Trying not to offend anyone, or trying to get everyone to like you, will set you on the road to mediocrity [Which GOR is now]. Why? Because leaders who are afraid to make people angry are likely to waver and procrastinate when it comes time to make tough choices.  Leaders who care more about being liked than being effective are unlikely to confront the people who need confronting. They are unlikely to offer differential rewards [or Opinions as with Gor today] based upon performance. They won't challenge the status quo. And inevitably, by not challenging tradition, they hurt both their own creditability and their organization’s  [GOR's] performance [reputation etc.]."
-Oren Harari, PhD.
 
"The job of the leader is not being the chief organizer, but to be the chief dis-organizer. A dis-organizer is someone who continually picks at and harasses the routine of an organization [GOR]. A dis-organizer lifts up the covers, looks under the bed, and runs a finger along the tops of the bookcases, all so that he or she can pose and begin to answer the key question: What are we doing, right or wrong, and how can it be improved?"
-Oren Harari, PhD.

"People get comfortable with what they know [which many do not know much these day on GOR], and they fend off the unfamiliar. 'Not invented here' takes root, and the organization [GOR] settles into a comfortable, backward-looking mindset [which GOR has]. Nostalgia and rigidity get woven into the fabric of the organization [GOR].
[A leader] is very deliberate and methodical as he sets out to spark change in his organization [GOR].”
-Oren Harari, PhD.

"Making people mad was [is a] part of being a leader.  As had I learned long ago...an individual's hurt feelings run a distant second to the good of the service [performance].”
-Oren Harari, PhD.

and fininaly:

"...integrity, honesty, and performance and
competence have to out weigh in this business-loyalty."
-General Tony Zinni (Ret.)

Rapture

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Rapture,

Ah so it is more of a personal issue towards a few of the posters.  When it comes down to the brass tax, whether a woman has been on her knees, in a collar, freed, then put back on her knees, really doesn't matter to me.  I can only base my judgements on what I see of her, just as my opinions of men are based on what I personally see.  I could make assumptions on people based on things I have heard, but it may not be an accurate reflection.  Like you said it is a small world, especially in Gorean circles...

What standard should be put to a woman that has been in both roles and is now a FC?  I would suggest the only standard that really matters is the one the man or men in hold her to.  While it is definitely your right to disagree, would you tell another man how he may treat his property or companion?  Or even expect him to listen?

I guess that is where my line is drawn, I don't think it is my place to change the standards or rules of another man's house.  I definitely disagree with alot of what I see out there, and wonder how some of the henpecked castrated men that are wrapped around their slave's finger can look in the mirror and honestly call themselves an owner or the girl a slave; but that is the way they choose to live and it's not my business.

Perhaps, there is just a difference in the reasons we are here.  I am here to discuss, debate, and occasionally argue about the philosophy, ethos, way of life, day to day applications of them, and even learn something in the process.  I have seen those that choose to argue with only people they think they can win against, or even have some personal dirt as leverage on...  They seem to come and go, they lose interest as soon as the attention they receive isn't fulfilling anymore.  I don't think you are that type of person, at least I hope not.  I look forward to some intellectual discourse on the various topics that arise in the future.

Thadius

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/9/2007 6:48:57 AM   
FemmeOwner


Posts: 120
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline 		As for leadership, there are 2 types of leaders. One can decide to become a leader, and gather one's justifications and go out and try to chivvy and instruct and criticise and set oneself up to consider oneself a leader, and these bullying tactics often result in some followers who mistake superego for strength. And then there is the person who makes no such decision but speaks in such a way that people listen, and that makes them think, and in doing so, becomes one that people follow.

As a newcomer both to Gor and these boards, I find Thadius to be one of the latter. I find his posts enlightening and thought-provoking, nor does he appear to attack others in his manner of laying out his reasoning. Of course, I haven't read very many threads all the way through like I have this one, but so far I haven't seen anything of the attack mode in his style. I find him well worth listening to, as well as some others  (hi, Liz! sorry I haven't gotten back to you, will be doing so! <smile>)

Lady Morgynn

< Message edited by FemmeOwner -- 2/9/2007 6:50:51 AM >

(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/9/2007 7:03:03 AM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Rapture:

I appreicate the passion in your position and that you have the iron of your convitions.. but posting private conversations is likely only to do two things have people stand in her defense and thus take this discussion into the realm of a flame.. and then have it pulled, and what is the point in that?

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/9/2007 7:10:54 AM   
Rapture


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		If that is what people will do then that is what people will do. I am not around nor alive for the purposes of always being political correct. If someone wishes to stand with something that was just proven to be or not to be that is what they will do. Then those people really should look at themselves more closely in who or what they are standing for.

As I said, sue me for being honest, and what does that make these people who would otherwise support embelishments?

Rapture

P.S.
The quotation is on point, on subject, and is relevant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

Rapture:

I appreicate the passion in your position and that you have the iron of your convitions.. but posting private conversations is likely only to do two things have people stand in her defense and thus take this discussion into the realm of a flame.. and then have it pulled, and what is the point in that?


< Message edited by Rapture -- 2/9/2007 7:14:35 AM >

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/9/2007 7:20:33 AM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Again, why debate it.. you will believe what you wish to..and others what they want to.. Sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor.

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/9/2007 7:25:23 AM   
Rapture


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		Because I choose to.

Further, are not these forums about debate?

I tend to support what I say verse just say it and expect people to believe everything without any support thereof. Perhaps this stems from my legal background in that you have to support what you are saying rather just blindly believe.

Again, do not ask a question if you do not wish to know its' answer.

Rapture

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

Again, why debate it.. you will believe what you wish to..and others what they want to.. Sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor.


< Message edited by Rapture -- 2/9/2007 7:28:02 AM >

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/9/2007 7:30:27 AM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		As it your right to choose to debate what you wish.. good luck with it.. *S*.

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/9/2007 7:45:23 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Rapture,

quote:

  Typically online the fw as many purport to be from the kneeling position to the standing position are as I have previously indicated. Just slaves in wait-they will take advantage of the medium, along with the weaker of males to use their sudden 'freedom' to claim many things, and also embelish upon not only others but their absolute true nature and purpose in life.


While I tend to agree with most of this, there are a few things that are left out of that equation (although touched on).  There are many men that do the same, thinking that being Gorean is a way to get laid, or to find what they perceive as easy women.  Also as I stated in an earlier post:  women knewly exploring all that is Gor (especially via online venues) are steered to their knees by the communities they visit, with no knowledge of her nature (not a bad thing).  Again, while there are many women that will try to use the flip-flopping to try and manipulate the way they are treated, there are women that have been on their knees and raised up for legitimate reasons.

quote:

Not so secure in being "free".....

Now some will yell and scream this or that because of the above yet trust me when I say there is more yet I have said I would not disclose the same and will not. However, the above makes the point; it makes the point of some 'fw' embelish so that they can walk around as they do (as i have stated). As previously stated I know of only 3 who have _never_ knelt.....

So spare me the theories, the excuses, the dribble, and in the like kind... Not everything is relevant, not everything must be accepted or tolerated, and certainly fw are just slaves in wait. As previously mentioned the ups and the downs are just games being played.

Sue me for me being honest and not tolerating the embelishments of female(s).  


Actually what I saw in the snippet that you included, was a woman being honest with whoever she was speaking to, about her status.  Knowing that she had been slave 5 years prior, and that she could wind up there again, "if" the right man came along... I have no knowledge of what context the statement was made, honestly I don't care.  It's probably a good thing that there are no logs available of some of those Yahoo chatrooms, eh?  Or are you sure that everything you stated in those, is in complete harmony with you are stating recently?  Again, it doesn't matter to me, we all will grow, I know I have grown much in the last 5, 10 years. 

There is nothing wrong with being honest, or not tolerating embellishments of anybody.  I would also agree that it is our job as men, to hold people accountable for their actions and their words.

Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/9/2007 7:53:55 AM   
FemmeOwner


Posts: 120
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline 		Um. Nope. In fact, I came as a Dominant woman to explore Gor. Dominant is my true nature. What put me off Gor for so long was running into people like yourself, espousing that all women are slaves waiting to happen <rolling eyes> I know who I am, and I have no need to either submit to a man, nor to prove myself to anyone but my own self. In Gor as a Free Woman, respected by the Masters in the House and playing an active role in the community, I am fulfilled and expressed. I believe this speaks back to some earlier posts in this thread, that FW and slaves *choose* whom they will associate with, depending upon their status and desires. I assure you that had the head of the House here been espousing the "all women are slaves" propaganda, I certainly would not be even friends with him, much less become a member of his House. Should a man come along (highly unlikely) from whom I would accept an offer to be a FC, it would be because he respected my autonomy as FW (yes, I'm a Maine Coon! LOL! funny thing, I actually have MC's! I was ROFL at the earlier cat conversations).

What I do NOT see in the attitude shown in the quoted text below, is respect for women at all, Free or slave. In fact, in the Gorean novels (yes, I read most of them in my young adulthood), I never got the impression that being a slave (for women at least) was demeaning, per se. I think there is an attitude toward slavery on Gor that does not translate into Earth culture. Back to the pet analogies, no, my cat is not my equal. but she is not LESS than me, either. She is my pet. Mine, yes. To feed and clean up with, give away or sell, even choose, if the unhappy necessity arises, to end her life. But I don't think less of her, nor do I consider it demeaning for her to be a cat. She is... a cat. I really like the analogy, btw, and am grateful for whomever it was that brought that up. I do not, however, get that sense of acceptance of someone's nature from those that espouse "all women are slaves" ...it's not so much what they say, as how they say it. It *sounds* demeaning when they say it, like it's a state of degradation.

Lady Morgynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapture
Typically online the fw as many purport to be from the kneeling position to the standing position are as I have previously indicated. Just slaves in wait-they will take advantage of the medium, along with the weaker of males to use their sudden 'freedom' to claim many things, and also embelish upon not only others but their absolute true nature and purpose in life.

Now some will yell and scream this or that because of the above yet trust me when I say there is more yet I have said I would not disclose the same and will not. However, the above makes the point; it makes the point of some 'fw' embelish so that they can walk around as they do (as i have stated). As previously stated I know of only 3 who have _never_ knelt.....

So spare me the theories, the excuses, the dribble, and in the like kind... Not everything is relevant, not everything must be accepted or tolerated, and certainly fw are just slaves in wait. As previously mentioned the ups and the downs are just games being played.

Sue me for me being honest and not tolerating the embelishments of female(s).


(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/9/2007 8:01:01 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Greetings All,

Master Rapture, if i may, i am a little confused with your concepts here. Within the philosophy of Gor, isn't it on many levels acknowledged women are both slave and FW? It takes a Man to make her the former, and it takes a Man to allow her to be the latter and if he does, then her own determination to remain free. If i am not mistaken even Norman admitted such? I will admit, actual FW of Gor flabbergast me lol, because i see a conflict of status vs being many times in observations. I am not sure how you are deciphering a woman goes from slave to FW to slave, but i can tell you pretty easily its not a hard thing to do when she is not owned, as slave is reactionary and FW is determinary. Even FW respond as slave to Men at times, thought they may not BE A slave. Are all FW slaves in wait, i like to think so. grins, i am bias though, i loved being enslaved when i was and am impatient for it again so would want all women to experience such a wonderful thing. However, i am wondering if you are speaking of the status versus being. They are two very different things. The former is ruled by laws, rules, and societal expectations, and the other is ruled by reactions of slave and determinations of the FW. You may choose to condemn women based on her status, but are you saying that you can look at a woman and not recognize within there is a struggle between slave and FW, especially when a woman is free.

I don't claim to be a slave or a FW, but i do struggle with being slave and FW within. I am free i know it, i live it, and it seems to me as if the slave is within and the FW is without, battling it out. Could i pick a status to be -- sure, i would more than likely pick a slave if i had to choose, but its simply because i am more comfortable with it. Not because i am a slave at the moment i choose a status. Just as if i choose FW, it wouldn't mean i am FW at the time other than status of expectations of others, not myself.

If you were speaking of status vs being i apologize for my point then is moot. I personally don't think any women who is slave, ever is secure in being free. However, status has nothing to do with whether a woman is slave or a FW within, status is simply a determination that allows for expectations of others to be applied.

I look forward to any clarification you wish to give.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 2/9/2007 8:03:09 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/9/2007 8:01:23 AM   
FemmeOwner


Posts: 120
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline 		So, you state that all women are slaves waiting to be collared, and present that as a fact ("being honest"), with all other opinions to the contrary being "embellishments." Then in the very next post, you state that you are here for debate.  From dictionary.com, debate is "a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints."  It's not about telling everyone who has a differing opinion from your own, that they are wrong and you are right.

Lady Morgynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapture

If that is what people will do then that is what people will do. I am not around nor alive for the purposes of always being political correct. If someone wishes to stand with something that was just proven to be or not to be that is what they will do. Then those people really should look at themselves more closely in who or what they are standing for.

As I said, sue me for being honest, and what does that make these people who would otherwise support embelishments?

Rapture

P.S.
The quotation is on point, on subject, and is relevant.


(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/9/2007 8:01:31 AM   
Rapture


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
"While I tend to agree with most of this, there are a few things that are left out of that equation (although touched on).  There are many men that do the same, thinking that being Gorean is a way to get laid, or to find what they perceive as easy women. "

I would not disagree with you there.

"Also as I stated in an earlier post:  women knewly exploring all that is Gor (especially via online venues) are steered to their knees by the communities they visit, with no knowledge of her nature (not a bad thing). "

Granted some experience bad things and are misguided. However, the same, even the anger or what have that such would otherwise manifest does not change or should not change the underly person. If it does, then that is merely an excuse to do this or that other than what they truly are.

"Again, while there are many women that will try to use the flip-flopping to try and manipulate the way they are treated, there are women that have been on their knees and raised up for legitimate reasons."

If you say so... but as yet in my experience again just slaves.

"Actually what I saw in the snippet that you included, was a woman being honest with whoever she was speaking to, about her status."

To me. Yet there is much more that you do not know nor will I repeat for I have said I would not.

"Knowing that she had been slave 5 years prior, and that she could wind up there again, "if" the right man came along... "

Slaves in wait...and not so secure as previously indicated.

"Or are you sure that everything you stated in those, is in complete harmony with you are stating recently?"

Relevant, on point, and directly relates to the persons comment and to the subject at hand.

"There is nothing wrong with being honest, or not tolerating embellishments of anybody.  I would also agree that it is our job as men, to hold people accountable for their actions and their words."

I dont know if it is a requirement but I'm amused in how much is tolerated by some men to gain the attentions of the females. Then agian, I'm not bought nor sold by such things.

Rapture

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/9/2007 8:05:00 AM   
Rapture


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		From the 'safety' of here and from behind the keyboard and monitor many things are purported. Trust me when I say, locally here, in person, none, of the so called dominate females never and not once could ever not once come to my face and even attempt to say what has been said here online.

Of course you will say otherwise HERE.

Rapture

quote:

ORIGINAL: FemmeOwner

So, you state that all women are slaves waiting to be collared, and present that as a fact ("being honest"), with all other opinions to the contrary being "embellishments." Then in the very next post, you state that you are here for debate.  From dictionary.com, debate is "a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints."  It's not about telling everyone who has a differing opinion from your own, that they are wrong and you are right.

Lady Morgynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapture

If that is what people will do then that is what people will do. I am not around nor alive for the purposes of always being political correct. If someone wishes to stand with something that was just proven to be or not to be that is what they will do. Then those people really should look at themselves more closely in who or what they are standing for.

As I said, sue me for being honest, and what does that make these people who would otherwise support embelishments?

Rapture

P.S.
The quotation is on point, on subject, and is relevant.



(in reply to FemmeOwner)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/9/2007 8:08:19 AM   
Rapture


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		angel,

I will respond to your post this evening or perhaps this afternoon if my time permits. I just wished to post this in acknowledgment of your questions etc.

It is running a little after 8am here and work begins at 9am, and as such I need to mosey for now.

However, as I said I will in fact respond further to your inquiries.

Rapture

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Greetings All,

Master Rapture, if i may, i am a little confused with your concepts here. Within the philosophy of Gor, isn't it on many levels acknowledged women are both slave and FW? It takes a Man to make her the former, and it takes a Man to allow her to be the latter and if he does, then her own determination to remain free. If i am not mistaken even Norman admitted such? I will admit, actual FW of Gor flabbergast me lol, because i see a conflict of status vs being many times in observations. I am not sure how you are deciphering a woman goes from slave to FW to slave, but i can tell you pretty easily its not a hard thing to do when she is not owned, as slave is reactionary and FW is determinary. Even FW respond as slave to Men at times, thought they may not BE A slave. Are all FW slaves in wait, i like to think so. grins, i am bias though, i loved being enslaved when i was and am impatient for it again so would want all women to experience such a wonderful thing. However, i am wondering if you are speaking of the status versus being. They are two very different things. The former is ruled by laws, rules, and societal expectations, and the other is ruled by reactions of slave and determinations of the FW. You may choose to condemn women based on her status, but are you saying that you can look at a woman and not recognize within there is a struggle between slave and FW, especially when a woman is free.

I don't claim to be a slave or a FW, but i do struggle with being slave and FW within. I am free i know it, i live it, and it seems to me as if the slave is within and the FW is without, battling it out. Could i pick a status to be -- sure, i would more than likely pick a slave if i had to choose, but its simply because i am more comfortable with it. Not because i am a slave at the moment i choose a status. Just as if i choose FW, it wouldn't mean i am FW at the time other than status of expectations of others, not myself.

If you were speaking of status vs being i apologize for my point then is moot. I personally don't think any women who is slave, ever is secure in being free. However, status has nothing to do with whether a woman is slave or a FW within, status is simply a determination that allows for expectations of others to be applied.

I look forward to any clarification you wish to give.

angel

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/9/2007 8:13:44 AM   
FemmeOwner


Posts: 120
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline 		Of course I will say otherwise. I cannot speak for other people. I can, however, speak for Myself. And Sar Nizam and many others locally here, who know me in real life, will confirm. I speak my mind, to Free, slave and vanilla alike. What I have said to you here, I would have said had we been sitting across the room from each other. My online activities are an extension of my real life, just as if I had been corresponding with friends through the mail in older times. I have no need or desire to make up personas, my goal is friendship and communication and to learn more, which is not achieved, or impacted in full, by being anything other than who and what I am.

I am also just still learning about Gor, so I will be leaving this conversation with you now to go to more constructive activities. You hold your opinion and I hold mine, and I doubt either of us holds the other in respect.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapture
From the 'safety' of here and from behind the keyboard and monitor many things are purported. Trust me when I say, locally here, in person, none, of the so called dominate females never and not once could ever not once come to my face and even attempt to say what has been said here online.

Of course you will say otherwise HERE.

Rapture


(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 80
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