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slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/29/2007 2:21:29 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		The issue of women, jumping from slavery to FW has been a strong subject in the years I have been living a Gorean Lifestyle.I know this topic comes very close to my previous topic of failed slaves turning fw, but this topic has a differant twist.This topic I would like to address on a womans feelings and where she feels she best fits in or contributes to the lifestyle, and why a man would allow the jumping back and forth, because frankly a slave can only become a FW in the Gorean sense, if it is a man who makes her such.I myself can relate to confused feelings on where a women best serves in this Lifestyle on a personal level, I was also confused when I was new.It took a lot of soul searching for me to understand my place in a whole, till finally becoming aware of my feeling best suited as a FW, but what about women who jump back and forth on a frequent basis?This happens a lot online, though I have only seen very little of it offline and wonder if there are those who do infact jump back and forth frequently off line, that I am unaware of.I have been told, that men view these women in a negetive light, saying they are reveared as less then a slave.While I am not going to make such a judement,I do indeed frown on this behavior.I would very much like to see others opinions in this subject, from both the womens point of view and the mens.

I wish all well,
Maahsatti
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/29/2007 2:57:03 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Maahsatti,

There are a million or more reasons why this occurs, but I will try to narrow it down to a few reasons that I have seen.

Take the new female that finds Gor online, via a chatroom or forum.  She romanticizes what being owned and being kajira is all about, she also has nobody steering her to being a "freewoman".  So she figures that she is a slave (using the term to make it easier to follow), she becomes more and more involved (online) and the fantasy becomes stronger and stronger.  Until finally she shows up at a gathering, and is expected to behave as a slave.  To help prepare, serve, and clean up.  To be obediant, and pleasing to a group of men (and some women) that she has no "allegiance" to accept via that online venue.  Reality sets in, it's not just about sex; and it is not just a role that these people are playing; they expect her to be the slave she claimed to be.  She protests, and claims she is a freewoman; until she gets back online a week later and wants to cyber with Master X.  This is just one example, I hope it is understandable.

Another girl, same circumstances, but she happens to be dealing with some men that aren't all that interested in the philosophy but more interested in the sex.  These men use their little online home to lure girls (naive ones) to real life gatherings, where they will use her, like the wanton slut they say she should be.  She will either refuse, or give in... either way she is traumatized (by the illegal predation), and if she has anything more to do with Gor, it will be as a freewoman... An extreme, but I have met some women this has happened to.

There are other girls, that want to play, but when required to be what they portray, will choose to change to whichever role suits them at that time.  In an attempt to manipulate the circumstances to their favor.

There are girls that are just confused, that upon realizing who and what they are finally accept one position or another based on the men they interact with.

Some men add to the problem as well, sending mixed messages, inconsistant treatment of a girl, and just not knowing themselves well enought to guide somebody else.

The incidents of girls going back and forth offline, are far fewer than that of their online counterparts.  The online problem, can only be dealt with by sorting the wheat from the chaffe, so to speak.  Time and consistancy (or lack of) will show the nature of anybody.  When I hire anybody, I have a 2 week rule.  I have found that anybody on a new job can act in a way they think the boss wants for 2 weeks; after 2 weeks their work habits (good and bad) start to show as they become more and more comfortable.  It applies well to new people I meet online and offline, although there isn't quite the same ammount of contact or interaction, stick around long enough and your true colors will show, just as mine will.  It is a little trickier online, because you cannot look somebody in the eyes and know.

I wish you well,
Thadius

P.S. Had to stop myself from rambling, and I see you found that second pair of cuffs.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Maahsatti)
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RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/29/2007 3:13:28 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		Maahsatti,

Could you provide four or five examples of this behavior?  I would imagine this sort of flip flopping activity to be extremely rare amongst the Gorean community.

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/29/2007 4:03:18 PM   
noyeh


Posts: 501
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings fellow slaves,

The books that John Norman has written, has clearly shown that a slave can be slave,FW,slave,FW as many times as the Free men want. It was a matter of what pleased the Men most at the time. Though it was very rare for a slave to be Free it did happen. So whatever the females are doing is their business and the Business of the Men they are around. If it is a roleplay thing online. It should not be a concern anyways. They are r/ping what they want and most of them do online. I started out as a FW in real But I have been a slave ever sense. Every woman is different and every Man's preferences are different. If tomorrow my Master decided I was to be his FC that would be his choice and if he changed his mind about my status again that would be his choice not mine.




_____________________________

personal slave of Master Jeff the Seeker
His property slave slut and pet
His concubine/first girl of the House of the Seeker

noyeh-JtS-fg

(in reply to Stephann)
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RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/29/2007 4:47:37 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Thadius,
I have a much better understanding now. I had now idea that such behaviors, as you mentioned. went on real life, such as men expecting girls they barely know to please them sexually in a group gathering. Not in the Gorean lifestyle anyways.Thank you.

well wishes,
Maahsatti

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/29/2007 4:51:11 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Stephan,
I could provide much more then the figure you asked for, specifically among the online chat rooms, not so much in real life though, as I said. I am not going to give explicit examples though, because that would involve mentioning names and I do not want to go there with this topic. I find it would be highly inappropriate.

I wish you well,
Maahsatti

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/29/2007 6:42:17 PM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Stephan

Not as rare as you would like to think.  Though this is mostly in not so serious Gorean online circles.

Yet when you actually stop and think about it, a unowned woman who is slavelike is actually a free woman, by defination.    Kind of makes you think huh.

Jahna


_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to Stephann)
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RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/29/2007 6:47:06 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		Maahsatti,

Honestly this would be part of why I posed the question.  This 'flip flopping' is no more a Gorean activity (good or bad) than snapping my fingers and telling a woman standing in front of me she is now legally my slave. 

You simply cannot comment on online anomalies such as cyber forced collars or 'flip flopping' FW and slaves to any sort of useful, realistic purpose.  There are dozens of roleplay oriented forums where this would likely be a well received topic.

Jahna,

Quite right.  Per Gorean custom, a woman without a collar is no more a slave than a man who owns a dozen slaves.  In reality, we both know that slaves and free women tend to assume their own identities within Gorean circles long before they ever end up in those Gorean circles.  It becomes the catch 22; women are free because men permit it, but men permit it because the woman declares herself free.

The whole rhetoric of the issue still smacks of the existance of Hups Shiney Rence Toilet Paper to me, though.

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 1/29/2007 6:51:26 PM >

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Maahsatti)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/30/2007 3:59:07 AM   
Tarisa


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		come on Maahottie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.. spill damnit ... hehe

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/30/2007 5:52:05 AM   
Torrie2006


Posts: 15
Status: offline 		Being a member of a chat venue and also a practicing Gorean off line, I have found there is a difference in the way women are treated regardless of status.
 
Many in chat venues view Free Women as slaves in robes, just waiting to be collared and they use the books as reference to back up their views. Thus many women are pressured into being a slave online only to find out it isnt in their nature to be so off line. Reality sets in as was stated in an earlier post.
 
Now lets examine the so called codes of a particular chat venue I have experience with. Women entering the Gorean community come in as a Free until they have observed a 30 day observation period because it's claimed there is no such thing as an unowned slave, so the true nature of the woman entering isnt considered. If one interacts in any fashion like a submissive or slave they are open to be forced collared. Imagine the confusion this causes. These rules contribute to the flip floping that occurs and in most cases wouldnt happen if the people were allowed to learn the culture before declaring their status. 

The books have indicated that the only time a slave was released to be a FW was right before child birth so the child could be born a Free and thus have the privilege of his/her fathers status, then the woman was enslaved again. That happened on very rare occassions because of the slave wine the slaves were required to consume to prevent pregnancy. I'm not saying a Master didnt fall in love with his favorite slave but it was on rare occassions that she was freed to be his FC let alone allowed to bear his child.
 
What goes on off line in the different areas is another thing totally. Each has their interpretations of the books and how they will live by them. Personally speaking when a child is born of a Master/slave relationship, that child has all the rights the father allows  him/her to have and so does the mother. Marriage is something determined between the two of them and not by some code in the books. It is after all a relationship between two consentual adults.
 
Soft Paths,
Mistress Torrie
FW of Gor

(in reply to Maahsatti)
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RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/30/2007 6:24:36 AM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Mistress maahsatti,

there is something that I have wondered about for a long time and never understood.

I am an owned slave so all my loyalty is to Master PO. So if one day he says to me 'I don't want to own you anymore , you are now Free."

Once I became Free that to me,would end my loyalty to him.

So then He says 'You are now my FC."

but that is the thing, you are not a slave anymore so he can not order you to be his FC, don't you have to agree to be a FC?

is a Free Womans loyalty always to herself first, whether she is single or in a FC relationship?

I am not making any judgements, I just find the whole thing confusing. Maybe it is just me because I have never been in the position of being Free, so I can't understand it.

Thank you for your time in reading this

well wishes
kisshou

(in reply to Maahsatti)
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RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/30/2007 7:04:53 AM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		Hi kisshou,

I have a question for you (or for anyone else that might now more about it) if you don't mind? This is something I wonder about. We are not Gorean as you know, so we believe in the possiblity of owned females as companions/wives, nothing in my owner's beliefs system stops him from having a wife that he owns...though he chooses not too. I understand in the Gorean venue that is not so, a slave is not a companion...so my question is if your owner freed you today and said he wanted you as a companion would you really be free? In your own mind? See I'd still be owned by him, I'd still do anything he told me to do, I'd still answer to him in all things and he could tell me not to do something and I would obey...that isn't exactly being *free*...it is being *owned*. He is more powerful than I am...he could call me *free* until the cows come home but I wouldn't be free if I would still obey(even in fury and tears) and I know I would. I can't be the only person this would happen too.  I'm curious how this works for slaves who have been made the wife/companion...you are not owned so you can make your own decisions but do you still feel owned? How does your owner stop being more powerful than you are?  I can't wrap my brain around how you become a free companion to the same man who psychologically enslaved you, he is still who he is, you are still who you are...slapping a new label on it doesn't change things that radically does it? Thanks to anyone with any insight into how this works for Goreans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

Greetings Mistress maahsatti,

there is something that I have wondered about for a long time and never understood.

I am an owned slave so all my loyalty is to Master PO. So if one day he says to me 'I don't want to own you anymore , you are now Free."

Once I became Free that to me,would end my loyalty to him.

So then He says 'You are now my FC."

but that is the thing, you are not a slave anymore so he can not order you to be his FC, don't you have to agree to be a FC?

is a Free Womans loyalty always to herself first, whether she is single or in a FC relationship?

I am not making any judgements, I just find the whole thing confusing. Maybe it is just me because I have never been in the position of being Free, so I can't understand it.

Thank you for your time in reading this

well wishes
kisshou


Edited because I can't spell for beans in the morning!

< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 1/30/2007 7:17:47 AM >

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/30/2007 8:06:16 AM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		Hello kisshou and chewsie

I can answer both of your questions because I have spent years trying to wrangle around it as well.

The simple answer is, if you are freed, your free.  Let’s call this legally under Gorean practice.  You can’t get around this concept.

What your talking about is in reality the inner self.  Feelings thoughts and emotions.  They often times run in conflict with your “legal” Gorean status.  We see this most often in the un owned girls we call slaves, who are not really slaves at all under Gorean practice.  What they are actually proclaiming is their desire to be owned.

So yes, once you realize your actually talking about two different things everything else goes into perspective.

I am not owned, I am free by Gorean practice.  Thus I am allowed different expectations then slaves.  This doesn’t mean I stop feeling, or even acting on the very things I did as the slave I once was.  How can I, it is part of me.  Trying to tell me I shouldn’t is like saying you don’t like chocolate any more because your over 35 and that’s when you have to stop liking it despite the fact you’re a chocoholic!

So here is how it works in reality.  I can’t go up to the man in my life and demand slavery/freedom, it is not mine to demand.  As a Gorean woman I understand that this choice is his and his alone.  He can if he wants, flip me in and out of these statuses as long as I stick around.  While I am bound by different expectations under either of these labels, who I am and what I feel inside doesn’t really change.  How can you really change the heart of a person if they are truly sincere.  

It is when we become fixated on the label that issues develop.  For example feeling or saying you can’t because your part of this magical label.  You know what, you can.

Jahna

_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
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RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/30/2007 10:10:53 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		Jahna,

not to pick a bone here of course, but the 'legal status' of a Gorean, as it were, seems a moot point.  All women in western society are legally free women (if they are not in jail, etc) whether they wish to be or not.  As a result, the context ceases to be a question of legality, but rather application of the philosophy as one feels they are most suited for. 

As a result, a woman who perceives herself as a free woman runs into a few contradictions (for example.)  On one hand, she accepts/desires to be free, by the will of the men around her.  On the other hand, she is unlikely to seek the company of men who believe all women should be viewed as slaves - it violates her own perception of her status.  Thus, in choosing the men she wishes to associate with, she is deciding for herself if she should be 'free' or 'slave.'  This obviously applies to women who perceive themselves as a slave - though I don't know any Gorean men with the attitude that all women should be 'free' (nor will I attempt to qualify what constitutes a Gorean man in the first place, since that debate still rages...grins.)

We all see ourselves as 'something' - that something is defined by the experiences and knowledge we have availible.  It would be difficult to identify yourself as a kajira, for example, if you have never heard the term, nor seen, heard, or read about one.  The real key becomes deciding what direction and purpose your life is to take, and pursue it with an open mind.  For a woman who feels Gorean philosophy is that direction, it would seem that she should imagine which role she would feel more content with (free or slave) and pursue that path.  If, in time, she feels she's made the wrong choice, there's a great deal she can do to change that path (beg a collar for a free woman, beg release for a slave.)  The only thing I feel worthy of derision is when a person is miserable but refuses to consider alternatives to his own misery.  That's a path to self-destruction.  I'm all for the 'flip floppers' - beats the hell out of walking over the broken glass that follows misery.

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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Profile   Post #: 14
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/30/2007 10:46:04 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings kiss,
See, this is an area I am also having troubles with. I have always felt, an unowned slave is just that an unowned slave and not exactly Free.I have recently been seeing a lot of opinions though to the contrary. Does that change my view?..not really, at least not at this time.I would say, that if your Master freed you by declaring you a FW, not just removing the collar and telling you, you are no longer in his service, then by all means you are a FW and able to make up your own mind as to who you would want to enter a companion contract with.Your loyalties to him as a slave, would indeed be over, however the level of respect would or should not change, nor for any FM or displaying the appropriate behavior towards FM.FW are still subservient, though with afforded rights and choice.I have always liked to joke with my friend, that she was a contracted slave now, after becoming companioned, whether that is an accurate assesment I am not so sure.We just like to tease each other.lol.I hope this has helped a little.

serve and be well,
Mistress Maahsatti

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/30/2007 10:47:57 AM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Stephan

I agree with the legal term which is why I stated, legally under Gorean practice.  It is our practice of the system that counts.  It is a given and mote issue to keep restating obvious fact, we are all legally free.

It is my personal experience that says, a woman entering into living as a Gorean has to be willing to accept the possiblity that she can be any status that the man/men around her determine.  While it is true, a woman might seek slavery, whether or not it is granted to her is another story.  Obviously the same is true for freedom.  Depending on who the man is and what his code of ethics determine (assuming he is the primary man in your life) he may well deside at some point to free you from slavery, or demand slavery from you.  There are many sitiuations where this can and does happen.  If she finds she is unable to live under those conditions, perhaps moving on is a better option. 

Jahna


_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/30/2007 10:59:04 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		Jahna,

Exactly the crux of my issue.  Would you likely seek out the companionship of a man who would only consider to engage in a relationship with you, if you were a slave?  (I would dare say it's worth a new topic, except it's very very close to this one.)

With this in mind, ultimately the free women in question accept the decision of the man in 'take it or leave it' fashion.  Either she respects his decision to make her slave, or (more likely in my view) do everything in her power to avoid giving him cause to make such a decision.

I only mentioned the legality issue, to illustrate that the whole matter boils down to choice - choosing to be free, choosing to be slave, and choosing the men you wish to associate yourself with.

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/30/2007 11:11:35 AM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Stephan

Again from personal experience, cause that is all I have to offer you.  I once started out looking for ownership again, why was I looking for ownership again, because I was fixated on the label, I felt I could not function without the label.  I found a man that demand that part of me, and then much much more.  Finding one's self in a position of seeking a label or seeking actually living you tend to see the whole picture, not just a tiny aspect.  While I agree, it is all about choice, it always is,  it is in this case about being and following what you claim to be and follow.  In this case a woman (notice lack of status) in a Gorean setting.

How can I honestly sit here and say about slavery, you must be everything your owner wants you to be and that much more, if I place the label above his demands?  I can't, I simply can't.  Being everything to a Gorean man and then some requires much more then personal demands of  "either I am your slave or you can go to hell".  That Stephan to me at the very least is what being a woman in a Gorean setting is all about.  Understanding it is not all about what I want, and demand, it is about accepting what men or a man wants and demands of me.  I picked being in a Gorean setting, as a woman, now I must live up to it.  If I can't or won't Goreans are not the only ones that practice slavery, other lifestyle choices offer it as well, maybe I would be better suited to them.  That is the choice we all make.

Jahna


_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 1/30/2007 11:29:53 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		Excellent answer, Jahna.  Thank you.

I would take it a step further; it isn't just what the man wants from the woman, but rather what the man knows he needs for both himself, and his woman.  The ideal isn't about obedience and ownership, that I can tell (if it was, I wouldn't be even remotely as interested in Gor as I am.)  The ideal seems to be in integrity, sacrifice, and doing what is right, and best - no excuses.  Many people tend to focus on what they can 'get away with' - thus building a life built on cutting corners, until the house collapses.

Odd tangent, but I thought worthwhile.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: slave,FW,slave,FW - 2/1/2007 4:45:10 AM   
MasterSamauri


Posts: 3
Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline 		I stop to say hello to All and make a stop in to see how everyone is? Master Samauri

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