ishyB
Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
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Greetings tazzy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: tazzy
if your mind is made up that you cannot see where integrity or honor has any place in respect to slavery, there isnt much to discuss. my profession demands that of me, Master allows me to maintain it i dont see what is to not understand, so, perhaps we should just agree to disagree on this topic
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2679865
quote:
ORIGINAL: ishyB
I would like to ask you to explain what it is about that post that make you disagree with it so we can figure out what it is exactly that we are on different wavelenghts about. If you don't mind, I'd also like you to explain how you define integrity, and how you feel it fits in your life, and why. I'd love to get a better understanding of where you are coming from; cause frankly, it feels that I have as hard a time wrapping my mind around the idea of a slave with honor/integrity as you, and a few other girls here, have with wrapping your mind around the idea of a slave without it.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2679391
My rational point of view is that kajirae do not have honor. I have yet to hear an argument that has convinced me differently but I'm trying to keep an open mind for it should it present itself.
The argument: I'm called a kajira and therefor I am one, and I feel like I have honor thus kajirae have honor is not a rational one in my mind.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2679801
Like I said: I'm open to a definition that defines what being a kajira, either on Earth or in the books, means that still leaves an opening for her to have honor. It's just that I've been racking my brain trying to find one, and I honestly can't.
Which is why I'm asking those who put forward that, yes you can be a kajira and have honor, to explain how exactly they see that, and what it means to them.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2679859
I'm sorry if I didn't manage to get this across clearly enough tazzy, but I am actually really keeping an open mind in this whole debate.
In fact, I've been actively trying to play devil's advocate with myself and try and argue the opposite sides point of view.
It's just that, I still really disagree, and I sometimes get the feeling that for some people, this is a really hard topic to debate without falling back on purely emotional arguments. I'm very willing to consider logical arguments, just not emotional ones.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tazzy
is it our place, the ones in service, to determine who is a slave and who isnt? or is it the one who we are in service to who is to determine that? of course, the Free can make that determination about any girl.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2680141
I absolutely don't think that it's a slave's place to determine who is a slave and who isn't.
I actually have very specific rules about this very subject.
The behavior Master keeps me to is this: ANYBODY that is not a slave/owned/collared in a social sense is free and I am to deffer as a slave to all of them. This means obviously all the Gorean Free, but also a random stranger on the street, my own family, UMs (though in that case I am to act in their best interest, which might at times mean NOT giving them what they want), my friends, my co-workers.... anybody.
This even includes girls that are actively seeking to be enslaved but are not owned at the moment.
My rules are that as long as they are not owned, they are free, but since a free can choice the way they want to be treated by me, I'll behave towards them as they want me to behave and thus more often then not treat them as a fellow slave (though still more careful and reserved then with an owned girl) because that is what THEY prefer. At any times any of these girls can demand of me to treat them as a free and command me though, and I would simply obey them as I would any other slave.
The way Master's rules are the way they are is because I am not allowed to judge on who is a slave and who is not. Even when a slavish nature might be visible in a girl, or if they fail to live up to what other free demand as the minimum standard for a free, then I am still not allowed to judge them on that. My rules state: as long as they are not owned, they are free and I will behave accordingly.
On the other hand Master has also taught me his views and definitions in a general sense. The methods HE uses to determine if somebody is truly free or a slave. I know in a general theoretical sense what his qualifications are to make such determinations, and I am expected to accept his methods for doing so as correct.
However, I am NOT allowed to apply these determinations to anybody specifically and make a judgement: "hey, you are a slave" or "hey, you are not a slave".
I'm allowed to discuss these definitions and explain them to others, and even to apply them in a hypothetical sense, or apply them in a rational sense (meaning something along the lines of saying: I was taught to think that if A then B) BUT I am not allowed to actually use them to make a personal judgment about somebody and then behave accordingly. EVEN if I know for sure that is the judgement Master would make and is thus by default the correct point of view for me, then I'm still not allowed to make it, and especially not act on it.
All I need to know that I is that I will deffer as a slave to anybody not owned.
I try to take great care and follow my Master's rules to never make such a judgment. And thus, while you will sometimes hear me state that according to my beliefs, or the way I was taught something isn't slave-like behavior. You will (hopefully) never catch me make the a PERSONAL judgement on somebody and say: you do this, so you are not a slave.
It simple isn't my place to do so.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ishyB
And I didn't intend to make a personal judgment about you, frankly it's none of my business how other people define themselves and their relationships, nor do I really care. What I do care about though in debates like these one this particular board, is that one sticks to actually discussion the Gorean point of view, or at least that's the attempt of the whole debate.
I'm really not trying to judge anybody or to make this debate personal, because I don't consider one thing better then another. People have to live THEIR lives... their way. I am, as you noted, a stick about definitions and generalizations though.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2679801
The way I personally was taught, (I again want stress we are talking opinions here, I don't want to offend you, or judge you, or try to define your life and relationship for you, it's none of my business)....
If there is ANYTHING that you need more then pleasing/obeying your Master, (like keeping your codes and integrity), then you are more like a FW then like a kajira.
Because of the simple fact that you are exercising self determination. You are choosing your own path, instead of following his lead.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2679615
I don't object to people living their lives as they best live it... I don't think anybody SHOULD be a slave, or a kajira, or whatever to be 'right' and 'twue'. But why keep insisting that a round box is indeed a square one?
Goreans have a name for females that are self determined and find importance in keeping their own codes... EVEN when those females at the same time happen to be VERY submissive to dominant men, to the degree that they'll let their partner take full lead in their relationship.... those females are called.... Free Women.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2679708
quote:
ORIGINAL: tazzy
and that determination is questioned.. not by Free, but by women who state they know all about slavery and how it "should be".
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2680569
That's a very strong accusation to make without addressing specifically who you are aiming it to.
Personally, I have not seen anybody on this topic state that -they know all about slavery and how it "should be".-
Also, I have seen nobody on this topic state about anybody that they are or are not a slave. The determination made by Free was never questioned by anybody as far as I can tell.
What I did see is the concept of what it means to be a slave discussed in a general sense by a large number of people.
Many people stated their views about this topic, usually using the form 'I don't think that X, Y and Z is how a kajira behaves, the way I define a kajira'. That is a far cry of anybody stating that anybody else is or is not a slave, or questioning determinations though.
If you consider such statements to be a personal judgement about people, then EVERY opinion a slave states on this topic is a personal judgement about other slaves.
If you follow the line of thinking that discussion theoretics is making personal judgments then you yourself have been guilty of this. To give an example: if you state that, yes, slaves definitely DO have honor, then you are questioning the determinations made by my Master and a number of other Free around here.
Discussing theoretics isn't the same as making personal accusations though, I hope you can see that.
This is also the reason why I think it's very important to leave out emotions when you are debating generalities.
It is perfectly acceptable to make an emotional statement when you are talking about something personal to yourself, but when taking a statement and applying it as a general norm, I think it's best to stick to an as purely rational thought process as possible.
To give an example, while I think it is acceptable to say something like: "I do/don't have honor, because the idea of the opposite just doesn't sit well with me"; I consider it wrong to say: "I don't think slaves in general do/don't have honor because the idea doesn't sit well with me."
I consider saying that you don't consider a particular thing slave-like something entirely different from accusing somebody of not being a slave, or question determinations applied to individuals.
I wish you well,
ishy
< Message edited by ishyB -- 6/26/2009 3:34:50 PM >
_____________________________
I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg
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RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 
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