RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time

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RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time

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RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/26/2009 11:10:41 PM

kiani

Posts: 24
Status: offline

quote:

It is HIS integrity, honor, codes, rules, etc. that you are reflecting.

Greetings Mistress Kimveri:

this girl was brutally beaten and commanded to do what is illegal by her former owner and she eventually found the courage and left. she did not care if she was ever owned again and finally did refuse to obey what her former owner called "his honor and morality."

this girl seriously does not understand how what is illegal could be considered honor and morality and then a man force this on his girl. Unwilling to "obey" his commands to do what is illegal she left.

Mistress if willing please explain more of what the statement means and how it is related in serving when commanded to do what is illegal.

Thank you Mistress.

she wishes A/all well,
kiani

(in reply to Kimveri)

Post #: 9361

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 5:06:00 AM

kazzaslave

Posts: 291
Joined: 12/12/2008
Status: offline

Greetings all,

kazza has been seeing posts here about whether or not a slave should or shouldn't disobey if her Master commands her to divulge private details on what goes on at work. One example is tazzy's contention that as a nurse she would not talk to her Master about certain things which go (went?) on which would mean divulging her patients' private details.

On this kazza agrees. she works as a medical secretary at a local hospital and being told to divulge private details on the patients she deals with would be one of those times she has talked about which would override her Master's control over her. For her it's nothing to do with laws, Masters, obeying, it's all about the patients. They have a reasonable expectation of privacy, it's really that simple. kazza has no right to tell stories about them even if she is commanded to, although she honestly cannot imagine a Man who would command his slave to do such a thing. In any case, she would refuse to obey and then accept the consequences of refusing to obey her Master.

We who live Gorean have made a choice to do so, none of those patients signed up for that, they don't deserve to have their lives passed around for others' entertainment.

she wishes all well,

phoenix

_____________________________

I had no choice but to hear you ~Alanis Morrisette

All kazza's postings are approved by Master Malkinius

tsfka phoenix

Member of MoGa's In Crowd

Honorary member of the Fabulous Michigan Clique

(in reply to donnaamarie)

Post #: 9362

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 5:52:22 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 3908
Status: offline

I am curious, as kazzaslave said, she would disobey and take the consequences, tazzy indicated she would attempt to negotiate or discuss with her Master prior to obeying in her response to Orions question, if you are that concerned about breaching your integrity and placing your clients i such a position of you MAY actually have to divulge information if your Master EVER decided to command you to, would you choose then to go to work where you would have to keep confidentiality?

I mean if a slave is that worried and feels she has to maintain FW aspects as a slave of her honor, integrity, and such, instead of fully relying on her Master to maintain HIS, would you bother placing yourself in such a position wherein you may have to disobey him. Why not simply find a different position where confidentiality is not an issue so you don't have to rely on HIS ability being the Man you chose to be your MASTER, i mean he is YOUR MASTER, to maintain HIS decisions for HIMSELF by allowing you to work where you are and maintain your ability to obey his expectations which now incorportate those expectations of your employer?

I mean seriously as kazza said, patients didn't sign up for your slavery, why place yourself in employment wherein because you are a slave you know in the back of your mind it may come down to obeying or disobeying your Master IF he decideds to command you.

why not simply find a different job or be honest with your employer if you are unsure and fully believe your master may make you breach your defined integrity and honor that has to go with your job and ask your employer to place you in a position wherein you are not where you will have to disobey your Master if he chooses to command you to tell him specifics about specific people who are your patients.

And if its your Master COMMANDING you to work there, why not simply disobey then and find a job wherein your Master won't be placed in a position that he may because you are his slave force you to choose between your integrity and obeying as a slave because you can't trust his defined and applyable honor, integrity etc with regard to the decisions he makes for himself based on you.

Also, if you did determine to disobey if he commanded you to tell as kazza would, would you then disobey further and quit your job so that he no longer has access or even possible access through you in case you weaken under his consequences?

I guess what most of this is getting at is -- isn't it damn stressful to always be wary of your Master in wondering when you may have to worry about choosing between yourself and your beliefs and him and his beliefs because you seriously don't trust him to hold himself to his expectations and standards which many seem to be saying must be below theirs (the women) because they have to maintain their own for themselves.

Why even become a slave or for that matter YOUR particular master's slave is you have this continual worry in the back of your head?

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 6/27/2009 6:02:36 AM >

_____________________________

I think part of a best friend's job should be to
immediately clear your computer history if you die.

There is great need for a sarcasm font. Just sayin'

(in reply to kazzaslave)

Post #: 9363

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 6:06:39 AM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 6595
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

These situations do not seem complicated. If you begged a collar and trust your owner with your life and the decisions that impact it, then why would there be a condition to withold information? This is one of those situations where the inter-personal relationship needs to be looked at. There is no condition to a girl's slavery unless the owner sets it themselves. There is no negotiation, there are no exceptions. Maybe it would be better to just be a FW and seek a strong man, donning the silks and chains behind closed doors. At least then both would know that there are conditions and exceptions. Both would know that some things are negotiable.

_____________________________

Die, die glauben, erfordern keinen Beweis. Die, die zweifeln, kein Beweis genügen.

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 9364

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 6:17:25 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 3908
Status: offline

Orion, i guess that's where my confusion comes in -- it all seems way to stressful snd complicated and complex of when to apply when not, where and how, i just can't see how this distrust of your Master can be isolated to ONE particular aspect of their existance (i.e., their employment), i cannot see how this unsurity and possibility to the point a woman needs to maintain FW concepts to exist in his life it doesn't overflow into the rest of her life with him.... i mean heck it reminds me of people in paranoia, it starts in one area of not trusting and then filters over in others i just can't see how she wouldn't be second guessing his every decision to analyze it to make sure it maintains HER expectations and standards of all those concepts we've been discussing becaue in the back of her mind she doesn't believe his expectations and standards for himself reach hers.

To damn stressful if you ask me.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 6/27/2009 6:18:44 AM >

_____________________________

I think part of a best friend's job should be to
immediately clear your computer history if you die.

There is great need for a sarcasm font. Just sayin'

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 9365

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 7:26:58 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 5057
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

~grins to the girls

my life just became so much less stressful

enjoy your day ladies, mine will be spent icing my knee after overdoing it yesterday

tazzy

_____________________________

Hindu proverb: "True nobility lies not in being superior to another man, but in being superior to ones previous self."

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 9366

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 7:36:32 AM

ryssa

Posts: 474
Joined: 8/20/2006
Status: offline

Master Orion, I found your question and Mistress Kimveri's response very compelling. It also left me wondering...would the Free react negatively if they realized the private information they disclosed to a doctor, nurse, lawyer etc. was in fact being disclosed to a slave?

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 9367

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 8:06:09 AM

Kimveri

Posts: 775
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline

Hello, rysa,

I would be much more concerned with finding out who was in charge of that slave. After all, it is the master who directs a slave's actions. I would like to think that a man who directs a slave to take a nursing job, agreeing to maintain the HIPPA standards, would have made such a choice with his own code in mind.

See, let me explain my position without all the horrid negatives & doomsday scenarios.

I own a slave. My primary & single unbreakable rule is "Be honest. If I ask a question, I want complete & full disclosure on the matter, NOTHING held back."
(I have this thing about honesty ;-D)

So, my slave is trained as a nurse, she gets a job offer at the hospital. As we discuss the terms of that offered job, I ponder the HIPPA agreement. This agreement is the federal law protecting her patients' private health information.

IF I choose to have my slave take this job it will be done on MY terms. For example, she will be told, clearly & simply, that her duty is to obey both my rules & the rules of the job perfectly. I will ensure that she is able to succeed at that effort & not have to choose between two clashing rules.

THIS is how I will do that: While my first rule stands (full disclosure on any question I ask) & the HIPPA rules also stand (ZERO disclosure of patient's private info), I will not ask questions that cause a clash between the two rules to which I chose for her to adhere.

IOW, I made the choice, I will act to ensure success, I am in charge so I must eliminate conflicts. These tasks are not the responsibility of the slave. They are the owner's issues to handle.

As an owner, it would be MY "honor" on the line if I tell her to take a job (upholding the rules) & then tell her to break those rules. That's not her integrity in question.....the damage occurs to MY integrity before the girl makes the choice to obey or not. I damage my own honor by telling her to break a law or rule I initially told her to uphold.

After all, just what sort of mastery is she getting if I can't even be relied on to make a choice & stick to it?

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to ryssa)

Post #: 9368

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 8:43:44 AM

sweetgirlserves

Posts: 202
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline

quote:

I damage my own honor by telling her to break a law or rule I initially told her to uphold.ORIGINAL: Kimveri

I understand that the whole point of this is simply to discuss it on a philosophical level, however, i think the important thing to note here, is that in breaking the law, it is the *slave* who will go to jail or face whatever consequences there are to her actions... and no one really will care much about the *honor* of her Master. I think the thing to keep in mind also, is that slave-like girls can really suck at the whole 'self preservation' idea.

~sgs

< Message edited by sweetgirlserves -- 6/27/2009 8:47:38 AM >

_____________________________

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." ~Maya Angelou

(in reply to Kimveri)

Post #: 9369

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 8:59:41 AM

Kimveri

Posts: 775
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline

Hi, sgs,

Everything we pursue in life, everything we want, everything we think we need...has a cost.

You want something? How bad do you want it? Badly enough to pay the cost? What if the cost is jail? What if the cost is your personal honor?

Nothing is free for the having. Make your choices. Give the pursuit of your goals everything you've got.

And pay the cost.

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to sweetgirlserves)

Post #: 9370

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 9:10:52 AM

Kimveri

Posts: 775
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline

Howdy, kiani,

Legalities have little to do with this. Laws are rules made & agreed to by mankind. Laws can be changed in the same manner. Personal codes & ethics supercede law, at least for a free person living an agent-based morality.

But, to your question: Either you know the man well enough to know that you can live within the bounds of his morality, or you pay the cost of taking a collar before you knew this.

IMO, a girl who made a foolish mistake & then got the hell up off her knees long enough to get out is a far better potential slave than the girl who makes a foolish mistake & keeps herself there out of some twisted sense of obligation & ends up dead, maimed, etc.

Make your choices, pay the costs, & learn from your mistakes. Just don't expect fairness. Life doesn't come with a money-back guarantee.

Good gods, gals....it really IS simple.

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to kiani)

Post #: 9371

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 9:26:36 AM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 6595
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

Hiya ryssa,

That would depend on who owned the slave, and to what degree they held them accountable to keep that information private. I knew a nurse that rotated between ER nurse and trauma surgery nurse. She talked about her cases all of the time. If the owner of a slave were someone I respected, and I knew how they felt about ownership, I would actually feel more comfortable about the confidential information going to the slave. There are never ever any guarantees on anything in life though. I have had private things mentioned about my life by non-slaves, and I dealt with that.

There will always be factors that change, that may change my opinion based upon a specific event though.

take care,
Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: ryssa

Master Orion, I found your question and Mistress Kimveri's response very compelling. It also left me wondering...would the Free react negatively if they realized the private information they disclosed to a doctor, nurse, lawyer etc. was in fact being disclosed to a slave?

_____________________________

Die, die glauben, erfordern keinen Beweis. Die, die zweifeln, kein Beweis genügen.

(in reply to ryssa)

Post #: 9372

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 9:49:07 AM

sweetgirlserves

Posts: 202
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

Hi, sgs,

Everything we pursue in life, everything we want, everything we think we need...has a cost.

You want something? How bad do you want it? Badly enough to pay the cost? What if the cost is jail? What if the cost is your personal honor?

Nothing is free for the having. Make your choices. Give the pursuit of your goals everything you've got.

And pay the cost.

~Kimveri

Hello Mistress Kimveri,

Thank you for the reminder. The real sucky part would be sitting in jail for something you *thought* you needed only to realize that you really didn't... but then again, you would have learned something more about yourself. Truth can be expensive for some, and relatively cheap to others... and no, it's not fair... and such is life.

~sgs

_____________________________

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." ~Maya Angelou

(in reply to Kimveri)

Post #: 9373

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 10:15:48 AM

eponavet

Posts: 366
Joined: 8/18/2006
Status: offline

.

< Message edited by eponavet -- 6/27/2009 10:16:21 AM >

_____________________________

~ You are a child of the Universe, no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here, and whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is unfolding as it should ~

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 9374

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 10:31:45 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 5057
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I knew a nurse that rotated between ER nurse and trauma surgery nurse. She talked about her cases all of the time.

§ 21.18. Standards of nursing conduct

(4) Safeguard the patient’s dignity, the right to privacy and the confidentiality of patient information. This standard does not prohibit or affect reporting responsibilities under 23 Pa.C.S. Chapter 63 (relating to the Child Protective Services Law), the Older Adults Protective Services Act (35 P. S. § § 10211—10224) and other statutes which may mandate reporting of this information.

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/049/chapter21/chap21toc.html

Each State Board of nursing has its own policy. Each Hospital as well. When you allpy for a license, before you even look for a job, you have agreed to this. the nurse in your example broke not just one oath, but many, Master

well wishes

tazzy

_____________________________

Hindu proverb: "True nobility lies not in being superior to another man, but in being superior to ones previous self."

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 9375

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 10:34:11 AM

ishyB

Posts: 410
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline

Greetings tazzy,

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzy
for me, its quite simple. i am allowed to have, or not allowed to have, whatever it is Master decides. his decision was, professionally, my honor holds, because, without it, i cannot function to a level both he and my future employer would demand of me.

Not your honor… HIS honor…

By all the definitions we reviewed about honor, one of the key things that have to be in place before you can speak of having it is that you first have to actively define your beliefs and then very strictly and consistently stick to that belief.
You didn’t choose or define any beliefs when you follow your job codes. Your job defined them for you, and then your Master actively choose to rigorously stick to them. HE chooses to uphold the codes defined by your job, not you.

According to the post you just made to Master Orion, if he would have chosen to NOT uphold the codes set by your job, then you would have obeyed him. Therefore you are not displaying honor when you stick to your job codes, instead, you are displaying obedience to your Master. Your Master however IS displaying honor by making you stick to your job codes, because HE made actively defined for himself that those codes are important to him and then actively makes sure that he upholds those belief and made sure that his property does too.

You are nothing but a tool in this in which he displays HIS honor.
You are acting in a honorable way, because of his honor, but that doesn’t mean you have honor, and this is because you didn’t actively choose to behave in an honorable way. You are merely obeying. To have honor, you have to actively choose to upholding, you are doing no such thing… he is.

You are acting much like a dog would. It can either be trained by its owner to bite strangers when it is used as a guard dog for instance, or it can be trained not to bite when it is used as a household pet. Either way when they dog displays the behavior it is trained to do it is not displaying the active choose to bite or not bite, instead, it is displaying the choice the owner made in having the dog bite or not bite.
The dog didn’t define its beliefs and stuck to them, it just obeys… just like you are doing.

This is the whole reason why I don’t belief slaves have integrity, they do not define their own beliefs and uphold them, their Owner defines those beliefs and makes them stick to it… regardless of if the slave happens to agree with those beliefs or not.
To clearly understand the difference, try to imagine a Gorean Free man or woman stating: “I only behave honorable because my FC allows me to behave as such. If he/she would tell me to behave dishonorable, then I would” and then imagine how you think their fellow Free would judge them and their honor based on that statement. It’s not because you are a slave tazzy that the conditions one has to adhere to in order to have honor suddenly change…

Also, you say he allows you… being allowed to do something implies a choice. It implies that you can choose if you want to do something or not.
I of course don’t know this for sure, but my bet is that he doesn’t allow you to follow the codes your job sets for you, instead he makes you follow them… You probably wouldn’t be allowed to behave in a dishonorable fashion if that is what you wanted to do. It’s him pulling the shots and controlling the honor, not you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzy
we again dont seem to be speaking on the same wave length. i for one, because i cannot speak for donnamarie, keep my integrity and honor because Master has allowed me too. but, only in relation to my profession.

Again, the whole point is that the fact that you are saying that your Master ALLOWS you makes that it is not your personal honor we are talking about.

It is your Master’s honor and integrity that you display. You merely ACT out his honor. You behave AS IF you have honor and integrity, simply because HE happens to have honor and integrity. If it was the case that he DIDN’T have honor and integrity, you wouldn’t act them out at all… Instead, you would obey and act out HIS dishonor and hypocraty.
That wouldn’t even make you a bad person, just an obedient slave…
Just as acting out his honor doesn’t necessarily make you a good person, just an obedient slave.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzy

and that determination is questioned.. not by Free, but by women who state and that determination is questioned.. not by Free, but by women who state they know all about slavery and how it "should be".
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2680569

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

That's a very strong accusation to make without addressing specifically who you are aiming it to.

we all have been guilty of this, in one form or another, both outspoken on the boards, or in our minds

Could you please point out to me how we’ve all been guilty of making the accusation that other people are questioning the Free?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzy
perhaps we are seeing it from two different perspectives. if a Man makes a determination about any woman, i surely wont question it. and there is a book reference for this exact thing. perhaps we were taught differently. to question the status given to a woman, was to question what was given by a man. i dont question relationships. if a man calls a girl "slave" who am i to call her anything else.. or.. even allude to the fact that she might be.

I’m not sure which quote you are referring to, would you please provide it for me, it might make me help understand better what you mean.

As I explained in my previous post: I don’t question the determinations Free make. I would never assume that somebody is not a slave, state that, or act accordingly. In fact, I explained that the mere fact that somebody is called a slave or calls themselves a slave is enough for me to treat then accordingly, just as the mere fact that somebody is called free, or calls themselves free is enough to make me treat them accordingly.
I was never discussing the label a specific person hold in a relationship towards another. Instead I tried my very best to keep this debate away from getting to personal and keep it about general definitions of defining things.

What I said to donna was: according to what was taught to me, certain behaviors, like actively choosing to define your own codes, or disobeying the ruling of your Master is behavior Goreans view as being Free Women behavior, not slave behavior. (Note that I’m not making my own judgment or definition here, just applying to the ones my Master has set for me.)

In stating this, I didn’t say that she is not a slave, because I cannot define for her if or if not she fits the above definition. And even if I would be able to define that she fits the definition, then I still didn’t state that this definition is the absolute rule of everything and that it automatically means that I’m right and she is wrong, just that that is the way I was taught Goreans view things. In fact, I’m even saying that I am not defining and judging when using this definition, but instead I’m merely following the law my Master has set for me.

I did not I make a judgment about her personally. Even if I was allowed to do that, I don’t care about defining other people’s lives… if I didn’t make this clear before: I’m trying to discuss concepts here, not specific people…

I have a question for you tazzy…

Obviously I told you that I am not allowed to judge if somebody is a slave or a free or not.
But I’m curious to know if the same thing applies to you.

You have said that within the context of your job, you are allowed to display Free Woman like behavior, does that mean that if you would get a Gorean man as your patient that you would not behave any different towards him then any of your other patients?
Would you still obey him the same as you would if you met him in a different context? If yes, does that mean that you would display the same level of obedience towards your other patients? What are the methods your Master has set for you to differentiate between people and contexts?

Did he set the same rule for you as my Master set for me, namely that everybody unowned is free, or do you only define free in the sense of a Gorean Free? Like for example, the unowned girls on this board, are you supposed to regard them as being free or slaves? What is the rule he has set for you in regards to what people you owe your obedience and deference to and what people are your peers/fellow slaves?
How do you judge if somebody is free or not?

I wish you well,

ishy

_____________________________

Immature love says: "I love you because I need you."
Mature love says: "I need you because I love you."
~ Erich Fromm

What does your conscience say?
— "You shall become the person you are."
~ Friedrich Nietzsche

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 9376

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 11:21:16 AM

ryssa

Posts: 474
Joined: 8/20/2006
Status: offline

Thank you Mistress Kimveri and Master Orion for your reply...I understand what you both are saying.

If I may ask one thing further on this subject and hopefully be clear on what I'm asking....

If above was true, you found out your doctor/nurse was a slave, and she was owned by a good, respectable man, would you have any reservations about disclosing personal information to her based on the fact that she was a slave? Would you feel that there was a "conflict of interest" (that could be the wrong phrase to use here, but for lack of a better one at the moment).. whereas being Free, you felt it was inappropriate for a slave to have access to such personal information of yours?

< Message edited by ryssa -- 6/27/2009 11:50:38 AM >

(in reply to ishyB)

Post #: 9377

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 12:28:31 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 5057
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

hi ishy, seems i lost part of my post
this is the quote i referred too.

"Where did you find this new slave?" asked Arlene of me, not too pleasantly, regarding the slim, beautiful girl I had brought with me. "I am not a slave, Slave," said the pale, aristocratic, black-haired girl. Arlene looked at me, frightened. "She is not yet a legal slave," I told Arlene, "so treat her with the technical respect due to a free female." Arlene fell to her knees before her, her head down, and the girl straightened herself, proudly. "Get up," I said to Arlene. She did so. "Though this girl is not yet a legal slave," I told Arlene, "she is actually a true slave." The girl recoiled. "Thus," I said, "she need not be treated with particular respect." Beasts of Gor pg 415

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzy

What I said to donna was: according to what was taught to me, certain behaviors, like actively choosing to define your own codes, or disobeying the ruling of your Master is behavior Goreans view as being Free Women behavior, not slave behavior. (Note that I’m not making my own judgment or definition here, just applying to the ones my Master has set for me.)

donnamarie is acting according to her Master's demands. to suggest that what he sees as a behavior he desires in his slave isnt slave behavior.. well... i just dont know.

quote:

I have a question for you tazzy…

Obviously I told you that I am not allowed to judge if somebody is a slave or a free or not.
But I’m curious to know if the same thing applies to you.

You have said that within the context of your job, you are allowed to display Free Woman like behavior, does that mean that if you would get a Gorean man as your patient that you would not behave any different towards him then any of your other patients?
Would you still obey him the same as you would if you met him in a different context? If yes, does that mean that you would display the same level of obedience towards your other patients? What are the methods your Master has set for you to differentiate between people and contexts?

Did he set the same rule for you as my Master set for me, namely that everybody unowned is free, or do you only define free in the sense of a Gorean Free? Like for example, the unowned girls on this board, are you supposed to regard them as being free or slaves? What is the rule he has set for you in regards to what people you owe your obedience and deference to and what people are your peers/fellow slaves?
How do you judge if somebody is free or not?

I wish you well,

ishy

i do not think in terms of is this person Free or slave, according to my determinations. i do not make that judgement at all. if they say they are Free, then they are, if they say they are slave, then they are. occassionally i slip and make that judgement for them, and i know that just isnt my place to judge anyone. even by actions, i could not say if a girl was slipping on her path, or truly Free and acting like a slave. not my place, what i may think or not has no bearing on how her Owner views her.

and this leads into your other question

quote:

You have said that within the context of your job, you are allowed to display Free Woman like behavior, does that mean that if you would get a Gorean man as your patient that you would not behave any different towards him then any of your other patients?
Would you still obey him the same as you would if you met him in a different context? If yes, does that mean that you would display the same level of obedience towards your other patients? What are the methods your Master has set for you to differentiate between people and contexts?

i can honestly say no, for many reasons. one, there is a standard of care, one implemented by those far, far more knowledgable than i, and its not my place to question that standard when its needed to be implemented. i qualified that because an emergency or the middle of a treatment program isnt the best time to question such things. if a treatment is within the standard of care, its my job to follow it. i may question a dosage that seems too high, or offer suggestions for other treatments, but, i am not there to diagnose, just to follow treatment. and i have often used those standards of care to fight for my patients when the Dr chooses not to follow them. its rather an amazing system.

in one place i worked, i had discovered a surgeon was a slave because of the collar she wore. it was obviously a collar, allen wrench and all. she got it caught in her hair when she tried to put it back on, and i walked in on her attempting to untangle it. her standard of care could not be shifted regardless of who she treated. telling her, for example, I want only a 2 inch scar.. and waking up to find a five inch one.. well... you got a five inch one, Free or not.

we try to treat holistically, but, sometimes all we end up is treating the disease.disorder. i make every attempt to give the care my patient needs, taking into consideration his needs... not wants.. not demands.. but needs. sympathy can kill a patient, including a Free one. we use empathy when treating, and sometimes that isnt always what the patient may want or demand. i have had patients curse at me for making them get up and walk after surgery when they didnt want too, had them shriek at me.. "leave me the hell alone!".. and i cant. pneumonia can set it, blood clots can shift, ect. i empathize with their pain, but, i also see beyond their pain to the potential hazards and those also have to be addressed.

as far as the honor issue, its not worth the time anymore. i am a slave, working under the demand (yes, when i moved here, it was a condition that i attempt to regain my license) and considerations of a Man. he doesnt have time to answer the many calls i could place to him during the day asking if i did this, would his honor be violated. he trusts me to know my job, and do it well. beyond that, this part of the discussion ends here for me. the Free have spoken on this issue, and, while i do not necessarily agree, i will not discuss it further.

i dont know if this answers any of your questions, ishy. it may be better to just agree to disagree on this. your values are set by Master Bull, mine are set by Master... they may clash at times, and all we can do is follow what we have been told.

well wishes

tazzy

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 6/27/2009 12:38:08 PM >

_____________________________

Hindu proverb: "True nobility lies not in being superior to another man, but in being superior to ones previous self."

(in reply to ishyB)

Post #: 9378

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 12:44:23 PM

kisshou

Posts: 2352
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: online

great post ishy! that is exactly it

it is all about the Owner! :)

(in reply to ishyB)

Post #: 9379

RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 6/27/2009 1:01:32 PM

BeingChewsie

Posts: 1543
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

it is all about the Owner! :)

I need this tattooed on my forehead so I read it in the mirror. Truly, you are so right, slavery is fundamentally about the owner. The only time I have struggled or made an asshat out of myself in front of him is when I lost sight of the above.

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 9380

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