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RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time


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RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/4/2010 6:31:16 AM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

Greetings girls,

right now i am really upset about something so i hope this post makes sense.


have you ever heard anyone say i am a submissive not a doormat?

how would you explain what the difference between the two is?

I tried to explain that it is a gut feeling , that being a submissive or a slave is about being in a relationship while being a doormat is just being used.

uggh i am so frustrated right now, you know when you know something is right or wrong in your gut but you can't put it into words.

so i am hoping you all will help me out (please)

well wishes
kisshou




Hi kisshou,

While, I think, I understand the distinction you are trying to explain, I don't agree that submission.
I categorize the terms like this:

Slave: somebody subjected to the will of another. Because slavery is defined by being ruled by an outside force, it is a relationship bound status. In other words, you are a slave to someone of something, and cannot be a slave without an outside force actively ruling you.

Submissive: to me this is an adjective, not a noun and I define it as the willingness, eagerness or the inclination to submit to the will of another. As such, it's possible to be a submissive without having an outside force which overrules your own will. Most slaves are also submissive, though submissiveness is not a requirement for slavery.

Doormat: A meek, weak (both spiritually and physically) person, who is habitually used, abused and mistreated by others.

Now, you will note that my definition of a doormat is a lot more negative then my definition of submissive. If you check the well known online and offline dictionaries then you'll find that they seem to support my position and generally define doormat in negative terms, while generally defining submissive in neutral terms.

To me, the main distinction between a doormat and a submissive (and even between a doormat and a slave) is the measure of control a person holds in their choice in to whom to submit.
Submissive people have the natural inclination to want to submit. It's the position they feel most comfortable in. At the same time, submissiveness doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with weakness though, and as such, submissive are generally able to refrain from submitting in negative context, while they are inclined to actively seek out those situations where they can submit in a positive context.
This same thing holds true even for some (most?) slaves. While they often lose the right/ability to choose the context in which to submit after becoming subjected to the will of another, they, more often than not, are still initially in control of selecting/seeking out the person to who’s will they want to become subjected.

A doormat, on the other hand, has a weakness of character that makes them unable to stand up for their own opinions, rights and in some cases, even their own safety. They are not able to refrain from submitting, not even if no bond with the ruling force is established, or if there is no positive consequence from prolonged submission.

This is different from a slave, because a slave, even if they are ordered to submit to all Free, may still hold the inert ability to refuse to obey in truly negative context, but lack the active willpower to exercise that ability because they are in reality not really submitting to every random stranger, but instead to their own owner, which makes the overall consequence of obeying a positive one.

I hope this was helpful,

ishy


< Message edited by ishyB -- 3/4/2010 6:33:37 AM >


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 10061
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/4/2010 4:37:03 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline
Greetings Master Bull,

thank you so much for your time in answering my question. It was such a brilliant reply you have no idea how everything you said perfectly hit home and applied to the situation i was dealing with.

ishy and anna,

thank you both so much. I really appreciate your wonderful insights and am going to spend much time tonight thinking about everything I read and learned from the answers you posted.

well wishes
kisshou

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 10062
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/5/2010 11:05:46 AM   
estah


Posts: 491
Joined: 5/2/2009
Status: offline
Greetings,

How do you submit to the will of the Free, knowing it is what you need, but something in you holds you back?

verity

_____________________________

It all comes down to choice...we chose how we see things...we chose what we say...what we do...we chose who we are.

Better a cold truth then a warm lie

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 10063
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/5/2010 12:06:53 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline
greetings estah,

by trusting them

well wishes
kisshou

(in reply to estah)
Profile   Post #: 10064
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/5/2010 1:28:43 PM   
Dinnardin


Posts: 368
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

greetings estah,

by trusting them

well wishes
kisshou


and trusting yourself

John, AKA Dinnardin

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 10065
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/5/2010 2:30:52 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3938
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
You're still being allowed a choice...

No choice, no problem...

Ask ishy about this subject, she is still discovering details within the parameters of this very topic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

Greetings,

How do you submit to the will of the Free, knowing it is what you need, but something in you holds you back?

verity



_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

(in reply to estah)
Profile   Post #: 10066
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/5/2010 4:20:24 PM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

Greetings,

How do you submit to the will of the Free, knowing it is what you need, but something in you holds you back?

verity


Greetings estah,

maybe I'm misinterpreting your question here (I've got an analytic mind... ) But the way it reads to me is the following:

"How do you make yourself obey, knowing that you feel best when in a state of submission, but when your gut level reaction to certain commands is advising you (wisely or not from a rational point of view) to not obey?"

My answer to that question, as I read it, is simple:

You don't.

You don't make yourself obey.

Either he compels you to obey, and thus eases away all those doubts you are having until they become non-existent, or irrelevant (or they are still there, but you urge to obey is so strong that you just HAVE to ignore all lingering doubts); or... he doesn't compel you to obey, in which case, you simply can't. If he doesn't compel you to obey, you can choose to do what he wants, but you won't be obeying him.

If you do what he wants, because you feel you should (because you owe it to him, or some artificial concept of slavery), or because you feel you want to, or because you feel it's beneficial... you aren't really obeying.
Instead, you are making a rational decision to do what you feel is right.
You're making a free choice...

So, whenever you feel like you are faced with the choice of obeying or not, tell him about it.
Inform him that you feel you have a choice, and that -at this moment- if you do what he wants you to do; you are not obeying but making a choice.

If he is capable or willing to mastering you, he will respond to that by taking your choice away, and you will find yourself being compelled by his will, and your fears will disappear of become irrelevant.
If he isn't capable or willing to master you, he will leave you with your fears... and at that point, all you can do is make the decision to do what he wants, or not do what he wants, and personally accept the consequences of your own choice.

Feel free to contact me on the other side if you feel like it.

I wish you well,

ishy


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to estah)
Profile   Post #: 10067
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/5/2010 7:43:55 PM   
estah


Posts: 491
Joined: 5/2/2009
Status: offline
Greetings Master Dinnardin, Master Bull, kissou and ishy,

thank you very much for your responses and for the food for thought.

verity

_____________________________

It all comes down to choice...we chose how we see things...we chose what we say...what we do...we chose who we are.

Better a cold truth then a warm lie

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 10068
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/6/2010 4:33:49 AM   
eponavet


Posts: 406
Joined: 8/18/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

Greetings,

How do you submit to the will of the Free, knowing it is what you need, but something in you holds you back?

verity


Greetings estah,

maybe I'm misinterpreting your question here (I've got an analytic mind... ) But the way it reads to me is the following:

"How do you make yourself obey, knowing that you feel best when in a state of submission, but when your gut level reaction to certain commands is advising you (wisely or not from a rational point of view) to not obey?"

My answer to that question, as I read it, is simple:

You don't.

You don't make yourself obey.

Either he compels you to obey, and thus eases away all those doubts you are having until they become non-existent, or irrelevant (or they are still there, but you urge to obey is so strong that you just HAVE to ignore all lingering doubts); or... he doesn't compel you to obey, in which case, you simply can't. If he doesn't compel you to obey, you can choose to do what he wants, but you won't be obeying him.

If you do what he wants, because you feel you should (because you owe it to him, or some artificial concept of slavery), or because you feel you want to, or because you feel it's beneficial... you aren't really obeying.
Instead, you are making a rational decision to do what you feel is right.
You're making a free choice...

So, whenever you feel like you are faced with the choice of obeying or not, tell him about it.
Inform him that you feel you have a choice, and that -at this moment- if you do what he wants you to do; you are not obeying but making a choice.

If he is capable or willing to mastering you, he will respond to that by taking your choice away, and you will find yourself being compelled by his will, and your fears will disappear of become irrelevant.
If he isn't capable or willing to master you, he will leave you with your fears... and at that point, all you can do is make the decision to do what he wants, or not do what he wants, and personally accept the consequences of your own choice.

Feel free to contact me on the other side if you feel like it.

I wish you well,

ishy



Thanks ishy! What you so articulately pointed out seems to be a pretty major mental hurdle for a lot of people! Making things more difficult than they need to be...

~ epona


< Message edited by eponavet -- 3/6/2010 4:36:17 AM >


_____________________________

~ You are a child of the Universe, no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here, and whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is unfolding as it should ~


(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 10069
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/7/2010 5:51:20 PM   
kushiels


Posts: 55
Joined: 11/1/2009
Status: offline
ishy, i thought your points were really insightful as well. i'm still kinda chewing on them a bit, because that idea, that when one is enslaved, there really is no choice, requires me to think more about it to really get it.

i don't want to be too personal, but how does one remove that choice, in this world of "consensual" slavery?  how can one compel you to obey? 

my submission has always been that of a Free person.  As in, i have always felt that i was CHOOSING to obey, choosing to submit to someone.  i'm having a hard time grasping the kind of slavery you describe, but i think it is an essential concept for one who desires to be a slave to another.


_____________________________

"Whose my domly dom? Huh? Whose my domly dom?"
~AquaticSub

(in reply to eponavet)
Profile   Post #: 10070
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/8/2010 4:53:42 AM   
AnnaOfAramis


Posts: 508
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline
Hi kushiels,

Although your question was posed to ishy, I hope it's ok if I jump in too. The best way I can describe it is to give you some examples where females respond without choosing to. A sexual response is one. I can't choose to respond or not respond even if I were to set out deliberately not to respond... a man can very easily make me respond if he knows how. Same thing with things like... if you are upset and he suddenly comes and gives you a big hug or something, you don't choose to calm down and feel better, you just do. Slavery can be like that. How the man is, the type of things he does and who he is has the effect on you of making you respond as a slave... and obeying- well, no slave obeys perfectly all the time, but they know how to get us back to where we find ourselves obeying despite ourselves. I don't know if that helps describe it all. I'm sure ishy will explain it more clearly- she has a way of hitting the nail on the head!

well wishes,
anna

_____________________________

“I refuse to be the leader. I want a man ... always over me. His will, his pleasure, his desire, his life, his work, his sexuality the touchstone, the command, my pivot."~Anaiis Nin

(in reply to kushiels)
Profile   Post #: 10071
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/8/2010 8:48:53 AM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
Greetings kushiels,

*warning, long post ahead, brevity is not one of my virtuous, especially not when I wish to be clear on a topic as complicated as this one.*

the instincts anna named are a good example of involuntary reactions humans might have.

What a man does when he masters a woman, and compels her to bend to his will is play into whatever involuntary reactions he can.

In a context of involuntary (legal) slavery, the most obvious of these is "fear".
A legal owner will ensure a slave's obedience by making them fear punishment.
If you can keep a human in a state where they know that disobedience will have sever negative consequences, a lot of them (though not all) will start responding in such a way as if obeying is their only choice.
This is obviously not true though, seeing that we always, in all situations, have a choice... even if that choice is accepting the negative consequences for disobedience.
Thus, even in a situation of legal slavery, one can do what the owner says (or not do what the owner says) based on making the CHOICE of doing so. (For instance, complying with what is demanded of them, to meanwhile make planning an escape easier.)
If one, however, responds as if obedience IS the only choice (in a legal context because one looses the hope of ever gaining freedom), then one is obeying the commands, instead of making a personal choice.

Note that it is therefore possible to be legally enslaved, while meanwhile remaining "free" on a mental level.

Now when it comes to voluntary slavery, playing on the fear response is usually not the preferable course of action.
Instead, what most seem to do is bind the girl to them emotionally to such a degree that the girl cannot imagine living without the owner.
The very basis of consensual slavery is that the girl must be absolutely unable to imagine herself living without him, and the man must be absolutely unwilling to compromise on what he wants from her in order to have her.

When this bond is established, obedience is easily enforces if the man puts forward the idea: "the only way you will be allowed to remain with me (the one you need) is by doing what I say."
If the girl is so in love with him, and has such a need for him, that she cannot imagine living without him as being a reasonable choice to make, then she will respond to his will as if she has no choice at all. She will no longer choose to do what he says; instead, she will obey him.

Of course, in the legal sense, she will always have a choice; technically she can walk away from him.
But her heart has become so enthralled by her need for him that she no longer perceives this as a choice.

In a situation like this, the man will rarely have to enforce physical discipline to actually punish an errant slave. Instead, the act of displeasing him in itself becomes her biggest fear, because she knows that if she displeases him on an ongoing and consistent basis he will not want to keep her as his slave.
He doesn't even have to state this, as a threat, or a warning, or anything like that, but it IS very important that they BOTH know that the very basis of their relationship is that she is only allowed to remain his by her continued obedience.

This is also the reason why a Gorean saying is that "only a fool loves a slave."
This is not to say that it's impossible for Gorean men to love, or deeply care for slave girls, but more a warning that if he falls in love with her, and particularly if she knows he has fallen for her, it will usually undermine the idea the she is only allowed to remain his by her ongoing obedience.

After all, if he comes to love her, then maybe that means that he becomes to need her as well, thus become unwilling or unable to enforce her absolute obedience any longer (again loving a slave doesn't mean that's impossible for a man to enforce obedience, but it does make it harder in some situations.)

In a lot of instances relationships based on mastery seem (in my opinion) to have a distinct evolution when it comes to "compliance based on obedience" versus "compliance based on making the choice to comply".

In the beginning of such a relationship, before the love-bond is established, the girl will comply with the will of the man not because she needs him, but because she wants him, and wants to be his slave. She will weigh her options (obeying him and being his versus disobeying him and not being his) and will choose to do what he wants because she wants to be his.
At this point in their relationship, should he demand something of her that goes directly against her sense of morals or ethics, she will basically decide that he's "not worth it after all" and disobey and walk away.

A lot of M/s couples, as far as I can tell, never get passed this state, even if they are together for years (and the only reason they remain together for years is because he never orders her to do something that goes against her own moral and ethical code.)

A step further in the process is the point where the girl comes to need him for whatever reason, be it love, fear, financial comfort, safety (think about women in war zones), because of their children, etcetera, to the degree that she feels leaving him simply isn't an option. (Incidentally, I think this is also the state of mind that many women who stay in abusive vanilla relationships have. At the same time, it is also the state that many vanilla lovers are in, though their relationship is different, because it is not based on the expectation of a one-sided obedience.)

At this point, when she complies with his will, she is no longer making the choice to do so, instead she is obeying because she absolutely, categorically perceives to have no other choice. Even if she disagrees with his commands, or it goes against her whole sense of right/wrong, or she fears obeying because of the consequences, or she doesn't want to obey... she still will, because she has lost the perspective that there is any other choice but obeying.

This is sometimes called "internal enslavement", but I have also heard it referred to as "brain washing", "Stockholm-syndrome", or "abusive mind control", the later most often when the relationship was abusive in nature, the former when the relationship was positive.
At this point, the legalities of her ability to leave basically become irrelevant, because she is unable to revoke them on a mental level ~ she is mentally enslaved by him.

I hope that makes a little sense... and that you're still awake.

I wish you well,

ishy

Edited to add: BTW, I don't consider either state of relationship to be "better" or "more real" and so on then the other one. As long as both partners are happy within the framework of their relationship, the details of its working really are irrelevant to me. The only benefit I see in clearly distinguishing and labeling both types of "slavery" is for the purpose of easing intellectual debate about them... which makes labeling them pretty irrelevant in the grander scheme of things...


< Message edited by ishyB -- 3/8/2010 9:03:32 AM >


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to AnnaOfAramis)
Profile   Post #: 10072
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/8/2010 11:48:36 AM   
kushiels


Posts: 55
Joined: 11/1/2009
Status: offline
anna and ishy, thank you both so much for your responses!

ishy, your response was long and thorough, which was exactly what i was hoping you'd give, because you have some really great insight and, well, i just appreciate you taking the time to share it with me in such specifics.

i don't have anything else to add at this point, still just mulling over what both of you have said!


_____________________________

"Whose my domly dom? Huh? Whose my domly dom?"
~AquaticSub

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 10073
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/8/2010 4:40:24 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3938
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
Hi pet,

Just to add some food for thought to your well composed dissertation .

It's also important to consider the role of the instinctual drive that motivates a female to seek the one she will actually find happiness and fulfillment with by devoting her emotional and physical essence to "him". Just considering and coming to a possible understanding with this perspective may explain to some why a "submissive" woman may be compelled to uncompromisable and in fact absolute obedience.

When discussing things outside this forum it may not always be a popular point of view that (many) women are instinctual driven to find a strong and dependable alpha male type to submit too, but when we stop cluttering the social landscape with superficial degrees of self importance we might actually discover that these very impulses are what provides many of the answers necessary for understanding the depths and quite possibly the truths of our human (male/female) experience.

Carry on girl(s), you are doing a good job!

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 10074
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/9/2010 7:42:51 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 945
Joined: 2/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Hi pet,

Just to add some food for thought to your well composed dissertation .

It's also important to consider the role of the instinctual drive that motivates a female to seek the one she will actually find happiness and fulfillment with by devoting her emotional and physical essence to "him". Just considering and coming to a possible understanding with this perspective may explain to some why a "submissive" woman may be compelled to uncompromisable and in fact absolute obedience.

When discussing things outside this forum it may not always be a popular point of view that (many) women are instinctual driven to find a strong and dependable alpha male type to submit too, but when we stop cluttering the social landscape with superficial degrees of self importance we might actually discover that these very impulses are what provides many of the answers necessary for understanding the depths and quite possibly the truths of our human (male/female) experience.

Carry on girl(s), you are doing a good job!



Actually bull, that is pretty basic human 101 behavior you just beat to death. More to the point, why am I finding you in the "slaves thread and support and girlie time",  forum? Are you trying out for slave? Did you lose your way? Give em some room.


(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 10075
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/9/2010 8:46:54 PM   
daemonskasumi


Posts: 40
Joined: 8/16/2008
Status: offline
Greetings Girls,

Most of you know me at least a little bit, some of you know me more than that. I've been struggling a lot lately, with the failure of my last relationship, trying to decide if I want to brave the waters again and look for a Gorean Master or not. So, I was curious what drew you to your Owner, were you searching or did you sort of get found? What advice, if any, would you offer?

thanks

kasumi

_____________________________

“True strength lies in submission which permits one to dedicate his life, through devotion, to something beyond himself.” - Henry Miller

kasumi

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 10076
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/9/2010 9:18:54 PM   
ZeIda


Posts: 47
Joined: 12/1/2009
Status: offline
Arturas, why am I finding you in the "slaves thread and[sic] support and girlie time", forum? Are you trying out for slave?

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 10077
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/9/2010 9:34:56 PM   
VideoAdminZeta


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/26/2008
From: the darkest recesses of your twisted minds
Status: offline
I am sure "everybody knows this," but I might as well say it anyway.  Anyone who wants to ride the personal-attack drama llama is welcome to do so in private.  I saw a useful and interesting discussion taking place over the last few pages, and I certainly hope it continues, in a courteous and respectful fashion.

(in reply to ZeIda)
Profile   Post #: 10078
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/10/2010 4:12:45 AM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline
greetings and hugs kasumi!

I had been collared to a married Master and his wife tried to control our relationship. She was actually the one who uncollared me (crazy drama) anyways after that I was bereft and scared and unsure.

I was lost and trying to figure things out when he found me. My only advice would be to do your best to let go of the baggage of the failed relationship so when you do meet someone you see them with clear eyes and an open heart.

Brave the waters, he is out there :)

well wishes
kisshou

(in reply to daemonskasumi)
Profile   Post #: 10079
RE: slaves thread: support and girlie time - 3/10/2010 10:23:14 AM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline
I wasn't really searching more just hanging out. we met on a completely vanilla chat site on AOL. It has nothing to do with slavery or ownership. In fact if I remember it was
classyhandsomemen...and he certainly fit the bill as one!

My advice would be to focus on yourself, don't limit yourself, you -never- know where an owner might be. Good luck and take your time.


quote:

ORIGINAL: daemonskasumi

Greetings Girls,

Most of you know me at least a little bit, some of you know me more than that. I've been struggling a lot lately, with the failure of my last relationship, trying to decide if I want to brave the waters again and look for a Gorean Master or not. So, I was curious what drew you to your Owner, were you searching or did you sort of get found? What advice, if any, would you offer?

thanks

kasumi


_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to daemonskasumi)
Profile   Post #: 10080
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