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"Episcopal bishops reject ultimatum" - 3/21/2007 3:44:07 PM

Vendaval

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"Episcopal bishops reject ultimatum"

By RACHEL ZOLL, AP Religion Writer 40 minutes ago

NEW YORK - Episcopal bishops risked losing their place in the global Anglican family Wednesday by affirming their support for gays and rejecting a key demand that they give up some authority to theological conservatives outside the U.S. church.
In strong and direct language, the Episcopal House of Bishops said it views the Gospel as teaching that "all God's children, including gay and lesbian persons, are full and equal participants" in the church. The bishops also said they would not agree to an Anglican plan for leaders outside the U.S. denomination to oversee the small number of conservative American dioceses that disagree.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070321/ap_on_re_us/episcopalians_gays

(Edited for formatting)

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RE: "Episcopal bishops reject ultimatum" - 3/21/2007 5:35:54 PM

bayboundse

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Henry VIII would love this

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RE: "Episcopal bishops reject ultimatum" - 3/21/2007 5:38:46 PM

mnottertail

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not really he was pretty catholic.

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RE: "Episcopal bishops reject ultimatum" - 3/21/2007 5:40:59 PM

LadyEllen

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Good for them.

Irregardless of what the bible says, is it not a truism that Christianity makes sinners of all, that they might then be saved?

One must ask why Christians feel the need to take part in communion each week, if no sin is permitted - where we are taking as sin that which is proscribed by the Church. Is there any difference in this regard, between the high status businessman who attends church and undertakes virtue, but then on Monday morning engages in dodgy dealing which could be described as theft, and the gay man who is in an ongoing relationship?

In terms of Christianity, both have committed sin. In terms of Christianity, both are damned equally and there being no system of graduation for damnation - there is only damnation, not a level 1 or 2 or whatever on some scale, there is no difference between them. Both also engaged in their sin wilfully and with aforethought. So there is no difference between them. If we are to hold homosexuals to some special standard not applicable to all, then I would ask where and how this is supported?

The facts of the situation are, that the Church of England/Episcopalean Church now has a substantial majority of its membership based in third world countries, where the social evolution that has taken place in our societies with respect to homosexual rights, (as well as women's rights and all manner of diversity rights), has not occurred. The majority of the church membership now, regards the world in a way not unfamiliar to our society between the wars, and since they are the majority they have the influence to make policy in a way never before envisioned as a possibility - which inevitably means dragging any progress the church has made, back into the homophobic, misogynistic and racist 1930s.

Now, it does not in any way disappoint me to see the greater Church of England facing its destruction this way; I would like to see the edifice crumble such that it has no greater influence on the UK than any other religion. What does concern me is that antiquated and dangerous and damaging views, out of which we have struggled to grow in the last few decades, are being forced upon us by way of this situation - albeit that for the US it is less serious than for the UK, where the Church of England is part of the fabric of government, and for which the Queen is defender of the faith and through which influence could be brought to bear upon laws and regulations.

E

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RE: "Episcopal bishops reject ultimatum" - 3/21/2007 11:08:07 PM

dcnovice

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Hallelujah! Wasn't sure they had it in 'em.

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RE: "Episcopal bishops reject ultimatum" - 3/21/2007 11:14:52 PM

Vendaval

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Lady Ellen,

I am glad to see you posting here. Is the Church of England actually an official part of the government?
Does it have its own cabinet or ministry? I must confess ignorance on these matters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Now, it does not in any way disappoint me to see the greater Church of England facing its destruction this way; I would like to see the edifice crumble such that it has no greater influence on the UK than any other religion. What does concern me is that antiquated and dangerous and damaging views, out of which we have struggled to grow in the last few decades, are being forced upon us by way of this situation - albeit that for the US it is less serious than for the UK, where the Church of England is part of the fabric of government, and for which the Queen is defender of the faith and through which influence could be brought to bear upon laws and regulations.

E

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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RE: "Episcopal bishops reject ultimatum" - 3/22/2007 7:02:04 AM

LadyEllen

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Hi V

The Church of England (of which the Episcopaleans are the US branch) was formed by the infamous King Henry VIII when England split from Rome.

Since then, the reigning monarch has always been "defender of the faith" by which is meant the C of E, pitted against the Catholic Church, making the source of authority for the Church and the upholder of it in law, the reigning monarch.

In addition, the bishops of the C of E each have a seat in our upper house (the House of Lords). This is no small number either. Thus they have influence over law, despite now being a minority group by comparison to many other churches and other religious groups.

The problem we have, is that having been woven into the very structure of the government and nation over a few centuries, the C of E remains an important body and influence over everything, despite being largely irrelevant to the people and despite them never having been elected by the people. Rather, they are appointed, and most especially the bishops are appointed by (or at least approved by) the government on behalf of the monarch. As a social organisation, the church penetrates into almost every area of life too, and almost every official body has a C of E chaplain or vicar or whatever, officially attached to it.

If the Church of England does not break away from the majority of its worldwide membership then we have the real possibility of it having to denounce homosexual rights amongst other things, to be seen to be on side - that much is OK as they are entitled to a view. Where the issue comes up is in that the monarch must defend that view, and the monarch approves any government here remember (despite elections) before it takes office, and we have a sizeable number of bishops also holding that view who have direct influence over law, and a nationwide organisation which will be espousing that view - not only in churches, but in schools, local authorities and every other part of officialdom, with the inherent possibility that homophobia will be increased rather than decreased.

E

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RE: "Episcopal bishops reject ultimatum" - 3/22/2007 6:54:45 PM

Vendaval

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Thank you for the explanation, Lady Ellen.
That clears up many of my questions.

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RE: "Episcopal bishops reject ultimatum" - 3/25/2007 8:19:13 AM

Jack45

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Henry started his own church, he did it all for the nookie.
Not a good foundation for a church but whatever works for them.

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RE: "Episcopal bishops reject ultimatum" - 3/25/2007 9:51:18 AM

TexasMaam

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Henry started his church for the nookie,
Because he had trouble getting his cookie,
Fat waists he despised; he killed spouses like flies,
and then opted each day for a rookie!

Sorry, I couldn't resist....the lead in was just too priceless!

; )

TM

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RE: "Episcopal bishops reject ultimatum" - 4/15/2007 5:18:32 PM

bellaballanda

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Another part is that in the not so distant past, the US and 1st world Anglican churches were forcing the third world churches to give up polygamy. Now those churches are trying to wag their fingers at the US church about gays and lesbians....

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RE: "Episcopal bishops reject ultimatum" - 4/21/2007 4:23:39 PM

Raphael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The Church of England (of which the Episcopaleans are the US branch) was formed by the infamous King Henry VIII when England split from Rome.

Just a small correction - although the Episcopal Church in the United States is a member of the Anglican Communion, it's not actually a branch of the CoE, but rather of the Scottish Episcopal Church, which has it's own independent history and origin.

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