xBullx
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeggyO
Hello everyone,
I am not Gorean because Goreans have basic philosophies that collide with mine on very fundamental levels. I do not believe that dominance or submission are gender based. Goreans do. I do not believe that Ds is a caste system or a social hierarchy. Goreans do.
Hello to you Peggy,
Since you actually wrote this with some class, I'll discuss it with you. I'm not sure you either read or understood my earlier post. So I will take some time here. Now you say that Goreans (as if all are included) believe that D and s are gender based. I would have you go back and read some awesome posts that Leonidas made in the ask a Mistress forum that will answer your point to some degree. I will add that Goreans do not believe that D/s is a gender certainty, it is something taken and given in too all the same as you see it. It's nothing revolutionary to Gor. Just lik ethe life around you in your daily existance, many men are dominant. Now some Goreans will dispute with me, they see things a tad different, that's cool. They have their right to breath the air as it works for them.
The Goreans believe in developing this dominance with nobility, integrity, honor and discipline. They frown on abusive assholes that can't control their emotions. We also believe that within some men is the ability to submit in order to survive. The main character in the books taught us that. Many RP Goreans tend to ignore that do to the fact it isn't very macho and romantic. Like I have said, don't confuse living Goreans with our wicked step kinfolk (at times they drive us as crazy as they do you, they are however living their lives as they choose to). Now within the books and within our lives we have females that have dominate skills, and even some have tendacies to alpha as a Dominant. Female supremacy is a seldomn recognized reality, but I for one have never said that this woman can't exist, she is however an acception, not a norm. My free companion has to manage slaves in my absense for the home and even some she would manage while I'm here, seems she is in the dominant structure system at that point. She also enjoys her submission to me, but who could blame her for that (smile). The fact is that even for Goreans your dominance is not a given, it may be a birthright for males, but all the same, you have to go out and take it, if not you will follow.
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My belief is that either men or women can be dominant if that is how they are most comfortable. I know some women dominants who I consider to be really excellent, I know some male dominants that I think are pretty much useless. The fact is that not every male out there has the makings of a dominant, just as every female does not have the makings of a slave. I believe that pidgeon-holing people by gender does a disservice to everyone.
I think I covered this statement in the prior, if you see something I missed, do point it out for me, I'm not saying you're wrong about anything that you believe, it is your right as a non gorean, I am stating the beliefs of this Gorean with regards to your comments.
quote:
My belief is that my decision to be submissive or slave in a personal relationship does not make me a member of a social group that is lower than another. Goreans believe that "free" people are superior to "slaves" and should be treated accordingly. They believe that a slave can't challenge or contradict a free person, even if the free person is totally wrong or is behaving in a completely inappropriate manner. I'm sorry, I don't care what the person's chosen (note the word "chosen") status is - if they tell me the sky is a delicate shade of puce when I can plainly see it's blue, I'm not going to sit there and go along with it just because the person has chosen for themselves the role of free person. My view is their choice of what role suits them puts no responsibility on me whatsoever beyond extending them the same courtesies I would extend to other human being.
Here is where we have to chew the fat some. Free are in a social order higher than the enslaved, that is what a slave does, is serve the free. There is no equality in this arrangement. I don't believe fairness even exists in your world, if you think so, I challange you to dig a bit deeper, life isn't far and what slave really wants equality, they may wish for security and value, but they have to eran that all the same as a master has to earn true respect. Now when you bring up the reference about a man or woman dominant talking about a sky being any shade other than what it is; is rather a silly example. Sure some insecure and hard pressed to establish themselve delusional Dom types might find this a simple way to establish some sort of control of the slave; the fact is reality is compromised in truth for both, when trust starts to become questioned and so does reasoning then the goals of both the M and s are soon to be compromised. Why would any leader, dom, master or whatever want to create a false example to establish some sense of control. This sounds more like a sadists attempt to establish a mind fuck more so then a master trying to train a slave. I don't recall a single chapter in the novels where this kinda crap occurred. But do remember that Gorean have rookies too. They have those that have yet to really come to terms with reality as they should know it.
In fact a Goreans primary goal with his slave is to establish a slave of a more worthy value, to at the very least turn a profit if he wouldn't keep his slave. Now this is a book example, we don't sell our sluts, but we do take a girl to make her all we want and desire her to be. Those that are cold and ruthless in their action with sluts are often alone, even with a girl at their feet. Going back to one point you made is that Goreans see women as less than equal. The fact is that is true. But on that same point woman have qualities that men can't equal. Men and women are in fact not equal, we weren't made to be. But more to the point than unequal we are simply different, nothing more complicated than that, Goreans embrace our differences and celebrate them as we see them. It creates a harmony for us. Our girls aren't of low self esteem, they may have been when they found us, but they soon learn to excell within their feelings as a woman, the woman they want to be, need to be. But for men being a Gorean is only in part about our women, the fact is we value first our life interactions with our fellow men. I suppose the woman like girls night out a bunch too.
quote:
Be well,
Peggy
Live well,
Bull
< Message edited by xBullx -- 4/5/2007 5:28:42 PM >
_____________________________
Live well,
Bull
I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...
While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.
"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."
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