xBullx
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ORIGINAL: PeggyO
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Hello to you Peggy,
Since you actually wrote this with some class, I'll discuss it with you. I'm not sure you either read or understood my earlier post. So I will take some time here. Now you say that Goreans (as if all are included) believe that D and s are gender based. I would have you go back and read some awesome posts that Leonidas made in the ask a Mistress forum that will answer your point to some degree. I will add that Goreans do not believe that D/s is a gender certainty, it is something taken and given in too all the same as you see it. It's nothing revolutionary to Gor. Just lik ethe life around you in your daily existance, many men are dominant. Now some Goreans will dispute with me, they see things a tad different, that's cool. They have their right to breath the air as it works for them.
Perhaps I have midread the original books, but it seems for the mostpart that even free women in the books end up being slaves in the end and there is a very strong message that slavery is a woman's natural state and is a state where she will find herself most fulfilled. This is my perception of the books - and it has been reinforced by Goreans I have met and spoken with. It is certainly possible that I have been given a false impression from what I have read and been told.
Actually the books state that slave are a small portion of the population on Gor. The majority of the women are free. The free woman that is determined to be a slave is the own that flirts with the collar. In Guardsman I believe it was the pirates were raiding the piers of the city and taking pretty women as slaves, if the women hid they were safe. One woman even though being warned kept moving to the front of the crowd to see what was happening. She was taken, made to strip and made a slave. She courted that collar because it was in HER to be a slave. These females exist, but many are like you, simply a submissive that would inaccurately were the title slave thinking that you had control of SLAVERY. Slavery is absolute, there are no conditions. It's actually a word that no western, but your lifestyle uses it to their needs and so do Goreans. We attempt to keep it in the Gorean context as best we can. The fact is that even Goreans don't agree on what is Gorean. Seems any group of people have their seperatist. The real message within the books is a woman desire to be submissive, that is a stronger pull inside her than it is in men. Also be careful that as Norman was making a book that was interesting to read, you don't distort reality like the role players do. Yes, it was fun to have the spoiled free woman conquered in the books, that doesn't mean that all the women on Gor were conquered as slaves. It is amazing though when I talk with women and they become comfortable and stop worrying about having to surrender to weak, lazy and shiftless men their sense of belonging to men eases and becomes more accommodating. The problem is that when you look around, good and strong men ready and capable of conquering and owning women are few and far between.
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The Goreans believe in developing this dominance with nobility, integrity, honor and discipline. They frown on abusive assholes that can't control their emotions. We also believe that within some men is the ability to submit in order to survive.
There is a difference in being submissive to survive and being submissive because that is what works for you. There are men who prefer to be submissive or slave - not because it's what they need to survive, but rather because it's what makes them fulfilled as a person. I don't see examples of men like that in Gorean society. Again, perhaps my exposure has been too limited.
No there isn't all that much difference at all. Take human life over the ages. Before the advent of weapons a physically weak could use to level the playing field. Women naturally needed a strong male to protect them so nature gave them skills and assets to impress the males to want to protect them. The prettiest most capable females got the biggest and the best men, supposedly. Now desireability may in fact be inthe eye of the beholder. But it is known that nature built in survival assets and skills that became natural desires. In fact within the books there was examples of male slaves that seemed to prefer their slavery...In the book tribesman a female owned slaves that seemed rather happy with their condition. That disgusts strong men, but all the same within the books it happened. In the Jason Marshal three there was a fighting slave named "Krondar" that to my recolloection was never freed and seemed rather happy within his slavery. Slavery isn't always about dancing, cleaning and sex. Strong men will always fined slavery an unfavorable condition.
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Female supremacy is a seldomn recognized reality, but I for one have never said that this woman can't exist, she is however an acception, not a norm. My free companion has to manage slaves in my absense for the home and even some she would manage while I'm here, seems she is in the dominant structure system at that point. She also enjoys her submission to me, but who could blame her for that (smile). The fact is that even for Goreans your dominance is not a given, it may be a birthright for males, but all the same, you have to go out and take it, if not you will follow.
Again, I have a problem where dominance is a birthright for one gender but not the other. If you're a male you get it automatically, if you're a female you have to fight for it. My view is that it should be a birthright for either gender, if dominance is what they are suited for.
In fact nature has made leadership or mastery a birthrite for men within our species, that doesn't mean though that no women have the skill sets or the mindset to be such as well. If a Gorean tells you that only men can master he missed the point of the books. It is however the birthright of men. It is NOT automatic. If you attempt to be something you are not you will be exposed and in most cases be eaten alive by the very subject you attempt to conquer, if not that, other men will have you for lunch. So this does not mean men always can or will accept that birthright. They must go forth and seek and accept, maintain and prefect that birthright. It is a possibility for either gender. But nature created it a birthright for men. It may seem unfair, but face it, little is fair.
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Here is where we have to chew the fat some. Free are in a social order higher than the enslaved, that is what a slave does, is serve the free. There is no equality in this arrangement.
This is where I have the problem. Because I might choose to be slave in a personal relationship does not mean that I have chosen to serve every free person out there. In Gorean society that is how it works. For me it doesn't work. I choose very carefully who I serve. My decision to serve one person doesn't mean I've decided to serve a whole bunch of other folks as part of the bargain. That is one of the reasons I am not Gorean - the social caste system is not acceptable to me.
See this really is only a problen in one respect what you describe you want is not what we see as a slave. A slave is property. She has do to our society only one choice, the initial surrender. If we didn't have to forgo that, we wouldn't. You make your "slavery" about you, to a Gorean that isn't slavery, the is a submissive female, nothing more than that. Your form of slavery is some romantic notion of belonging to a man as completely as YOU will alow. Now, would that really be slavery? Just ponder that notion. You can say social caste is not acceptable but show me a single moment in history of our glorious Earth where it hasnt existed. It always has, to deny that is a declaration of ignorance. You see, slavery has no bargins, it is absolute. Period. That is in itself it's own definition.
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I don't believe fairness even exists in your world, if you think so, I challange you to dig a bit deeper, life isn't far and what slave really wants equality, they may wish for security and value, but they have to eran that all the same as a master has to earn true respect. Now when you bring up the reference about a man or woman dominant talking about a sky being any shade other than what it is; is rather a silly example. Sure some insecure and hard pressed to establish themselve delusional Dom types might find this a simple way to establish some sort of control of the slave; the fact is reality is compromised in truth for both, when trust starts to become questioned and so does reasoning then the goals of both the M and s are soon to be compromised. Why would any leader, dom, master or whatever want to create a false example to establish some sense of control. This sounds more like a sadists attempt to establish a mind fuck more so then a master trying to train a slave. I don't recall a single chapter in the novels where this kinda crap occurred. But do remember that Gorean have rookies too. They have those that have yet to really come to terms with reality as they should know it.
I have seen postings in the Gorean forums by slaves where they have disagreed with something a free person said - and where in fact the free person was wrong. The slaves were chastised for daring to disagree with a free person - even though the free person was clearly the one who was out of line. That goes against my personal ethics. I have an obligation to speak up for truth - and it is not appropriate for me to say nothing because I might be speaking against someone of a "higher social order" than myself. I train in a traditional Japanese dojo - even there, where social hierarchy is important, I may be in a position while practicing with a senpai where I might have to correct them on something. Although theoretically in the dojo the senpai outranks the kohai and is "right" all the time, the fact is that during practice, if the senpai is doing something that is incorrect, it would be a disservice for the kohai to not respectfully let them know there was a mistake happening. It would be very much against my Budo training for me to say nothing.
This one isn't that difficult either. It has more to do with tact than with whether or not a girl shouldn't say something. No man secure within himself would say never disagree with me to anything. He would say bring it to me in a pleasing and proper manner. To call out a free in public is going to start a problem in any lifestyle. It is more about discipline and preformance than correectness. My girls have their directives in this situation. If it would be a life threatening situation, they are to preserve my property. But they are also to remain absoletly obedient. Each man will have his own parameters. Your experience in my guess would be with chat room role play and not practicle application. You can address this again if need be. A disciplined girl, owned be a strong and competent man would have no doubt of her duties, and roles within his reign over her.
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In fact a Goreans primary goal with his slave is to establish a slave of a more worthy value, to at the very least turn a profit if he wouldn't keep his slave. Now this is a book example, we don't sell our sluts, but we do take a girl to make her all we want and desire her to be. Those that are cold and ruthless in their action with sluts are often alone, even with a girl at their feet. Going back to one point you made is that Goreans see women as less than equal. The fact is that is true. But on that same point woman have qualities that men can't equal. Men and women are in fact not equal, we weren't made to be. But more to the point than unequal we are simply different, nothing more complicated than that, Goreans embrace our differences and celebrate them as we see them. It creates a harmony for us. Our girls aren't of low self esteem, they may have been when they found us, but they soon learn to excell within their feelings as a woman, the woman they want to be, need to be. But for men being a Gorean is only in part about our women, the fact is we value first our life interactions with our fellow men. I suppose the woman like girls night out a bunch too.
I don't expect men and women to be equals - I agree they are not equal. However, I expect to be treated as a peer. It is the peerage concept that I have not seen present in Gorean practices as I have been exposed to them.
Again you have expectations and in effect demands that you must have. A slave has none of these. So you are a submissive. That's ok, good luck with the man you choose. This peerage concept does not exist, you are correct. Some men may aloow this to a greater degree with their Free Companions, but never with a slave. It would seem that a greater degree of your difficulty with Gor comes down to communication and terminoligy dispute.
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Bull, I do very much appreciate the time you took in writing your post. It was well thought out and clearly presented a new perspective on things for me.
Be well,
Peggy
Live well Peggy,
Bull
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Live well,
Bull
I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...
While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.
"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."
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RE: Why are you 'NOT' Gorean? - 
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