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ORIGINAL: xBullx

I don't know where the appropriate place is most of the time myself. so speak away, if they don't like it, they can skip us.

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Reading the books does help to understand a viewpoint.

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I do believe it is a bit more complex than that, but I have never said my way is the best way for everyone. And yes breeding is a consideration, but it is only part of the plan. The fact is that this example is rather ancient. Women did in fact serve other purposes. But we don't have to debate that. We can express oposing views till we term blue, it never seems to end until you and I are locked naked in a room for an extended period of time. no tools, no weapons, just man and woman. We can state our opinions of what the ancients did and carry on endlessly. In the end, if it is important to you and I, I suppose we should agree to the locked room. Nothing but that which God or nature provided us with. Perhaps they would open the door to a pair of dead folk, perhaps not.

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I should have chosen a better word than pretty, I do believe I stated that pretty is subjective though. There are in fact a great many factors envolved in mate selection.

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You would make a good mate for what seems to be intelligence and indipendance, your ability to assist in survial, or something to that nature, i suppose I should look at your profiel, perhaps I would find even more attractive about you. I'm not one to run around quoting studies, they always seem subjective too. Seldomn do they support anything other then what the quoter has intended, inturn you look long enough, most often there is a study that states the oposing viewpoint.

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I like to go with what I know and see, and feel.

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Hense the time in the room alone, you and I.

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I suppose I can see what you're saying here. I will leave you with one thought to ponder... I am filled with compassion for my follow man or woman. I have absolutely no pity or sympathy for anyone. If my being strong willed against subbmission in men hurts a pretty little fellows feelings, he better toughen up, did it appear to you that Michaels comment about female supermacy hurt my feelings. He had hoped for a response, and got it from a few that need tougher skin. I could care less what he said. If you think I should be politically correct and not voice myself factually then we won't have many pleasant conversations. I speak my mind, honorable men do. What disgust me is when a man wishes to surrender his dominance over a woman. If he has none, then allow him to be what he is. I have no issue with that. Does that mean I should be forced to like him. No more than he has to like me. I don't see that as bigotry, only personal choice. If you see it otherwise, Ok.

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But let's look at it. A man has it him to even own a woman like you, you said so yourself, if that man existed? I can only imagine, but surely you are a beautiful and desireable woman. You have savage charms and feminine ways that could stir a man's soul. Surely to feel yourself in the arms of a trustworthy and justly commanding man isn't a thought you have never had. Well, you can now either be honest or contradict yourself. I will tell you this though. I would sooner die than submit to a woman.

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It leaves me sick and to even consider something like this stirs contempt in my soul. But hey, that's just me. I really don't hate the likes of Michael, he brings a woman like you great joy I would hope. I just see what I will never be in the likes of him and it doesn't sit well with me. Surely you can understand that. I don't shout it from the roof tops he is a maggot and not worth a thing, I wouldn't even discuss him if you didn't bring it up. I'm not perfect, I do have what some view as faults. Don't we all.

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Again I suggest they grow a tougher skin. It is a kill or be killed world even if you or I didn't exist. I am sure I disgust some. So be it. Hell I disgust Rapture and he's a Gorean. He has the right to his opinions. The same as you or I. It's only an opinion and no laws are based on a single man's opinion in the western world, so you're safe for now, as am I. I will not lower my standards or alter my definitions just because it hurts someones feelings. If it enfringed on there physical well being I would consider my position. I would never encite a mob to string up Michael. That would be a fruitless venture. If you have a point that doesn't envolve my feeling sorry for someone than by all means let's discuss it, but because I hurt their feelings. You know better than that Alaria.

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I am an old warrior, I know many men that are more aligned as Scribes or Builders or Pheasants or Whatever caste. You may see in your part of the world men willing to submit, but I see very few men that would.

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I see many that just to get a sniff of a pussy would pretend to submit and play a role to be whatever just for some pussy.

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But they in the end aren't living as men, now are they? Would a man decieve you just for some of that sugar? I have no delusions that some males are waning a woman to run their lives. I have seen them, hell I see them. I also see a woman that is very disinfrachised with him. How often do you here it stated? Where have all the good men gone? My bet is that you have said that yourself.

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You said you would submit to a man strong enough. I know your idea of strong isn't my big arms, but more so my ability to conquer your mind, to have you reeling about my ability to swoon your every facualty. The heart, the mind and the body.

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True men always understand these things about a woman.

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Woman aren't all that complicated, weak men say they are so they don't have to both with conquering them.

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Exactly, very little is fair.

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I didn't make natures rules and you can argue them all you want, if you don't see where men are the leaders you aren't looking to well. I see it everywhere.

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I spend no time stifling young women myself, in fact I would encourage a femal to only be that which her heart screams her to be. I have no use for a slave type that is going to fight me daily. If so she should head to the action block, as many times as it takes for her to find her true master. It's rather amazing that when you speak of being allowed the right to be who you are, you said you were a tomboy. Does that mean a feminine female could never be a leader, she would have to be a tomboy, or in other words, be more "man like". That is a curious choice of words you have their. Why would you want to be more man like.

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I would ask you to do me one favor. Read the Book Fighting Slave of Gor. Read it all and work hard to understand Jasons trials and growth with an open mind. There are three books in this sub series of Gor....Fighting Slave of Gor, Rogue of Gor and Guardsman of Gor. These are my three favorite for dealing with the hman condition. They will slap you in the face with the very topic we are discussing. You might also find why it is that we athat claim Gorean as a lifestyle do so. Just a suggestion.

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You crossed no lines with me, I have had this discussion many times before. I suspect you won't be the last.
Contact me anytime, I'm here Monday through Friday 6 til 9, Saturday and Sunday on an oncall basis. (winsk and grinz)

Live well,

Bull

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I will reflect more on the rest of the posts soon.

I find it telling that so many folks base decisions on a group of people, on so little knowledge (first hand), and more so on stereotypes.

I wish you all well,
Thadius

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ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria


At this point I'm thinking I will probably try to hunt them down. No idea where one might find them tho. I suppose there is always EBay.

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LOL. I'm entertained by the way you think but...

Amusing as this might be I don't see how it proves anything. I agree the 'truth' about what the ancients did is as hard to nail down as the wind. Both of our perspectives are just opinions, as you say. But the room proves nothing. Because regardless of a possible mutual attraction and whatever might occur, it isn't necessarily the same as submission.

And despite your being graced by nature with quite a bit more physical power than me, I was graced by nature with 2 very scary brothers who would do anything for me, and the ability to sway, even lead, other men... to my very physical defense. And I'd wager me and my pets would outmatch you and yours. And these are elements of me that Nature graced me. The greatest need a woman has in the protection a man can offer is often protection from other men. An interesting racket.

And this is my point. Yes, men are stronger -physically-, but not necessarily more capable of leading or inspiring. Not necessarily more masterful.

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Damn good point. The studies nonsense was a load of tripe, and I feel somewhat foolish for using that example. The point wasn't important tho, as we seem in agreement.

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Heh. You seem to like this idea.

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And here we start to have an uncertain communication. No where did I show any interest in a strong man having pity or sympathy for a weak man. I have an interest in him having -Respect- for one. Much as I have respect for a kajira. Much as a collar is not something disgusting for a female, I don't see how it is disgusting for a male.

No man has ever 'surrendered his dominance over me', as no man has ever had dominance over me. Unless one counts moments, and the use of brute force or physical intimidation. And they didn't surrender anything, they simply lost dominance the moment the situation changed. I have had men submit to -my- dominance, however. I suppose I have also given over dominance in teacher/student relations, but I don't think thats the style you speak of.

As to like/dislike, no. I agree. But verbal cruelty? I'm not a fan of it. And will generally act against it. If I was cruel to a slave of yours, would you not defend her? Though, in truth, the man is question admittedly is -not- mine. I tend to defend those who have none to defend them. Just my way. I also take in stray cats.

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The difference here is that I am a switch. I enjoy losing control, at least for moments, and might give it up entirely...if I found a man I both cared for and -couldn't- dominate, who's strength was such that I knew I would be kept at my paces. In short, if the 'perfect' man came along. I'm not holding my breath. Barring that, I prefer to be in control.

There are many women who are more like you than like me though. Who would never submit to a man(truly, not situationally like Najak's animal examples), and indeed find the notion laughable. But they, and I, do not actively work to create a world in which truly submissive(slaveworthy) women are considered pathetic or disgusting.

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Why does it not sit well to see in him what you will never be? I mean, you will never be a woman, and they don't seem to disturb you much. ;) Or is this distress possibly some insecurity popping up? That you need to be disgusted by folk like him to remind yourself that you are great and powerful, and better than that?

And I didn't bring it up, someone else did, who I responded to, and you defended.

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I think words have more power than you give them credit for. Words are what create ideas, and ideas are what, like it or not, shape our world. Now the idea, and words, of one man and one woman might not have such a huge impact. But then, they may.

I do know that most of the gentle men I have known have been hurt by strong men, throughout their life. And it is because there is disgust for weak men that this persists and is often not checked. But unlike in the wild, these men don't just -go away-. You don't kill them you torture and torment them...twisting them into broken caricatures of men. Some manage to come out mostly whole. Others become the murderers, rapists and pedophiles you speak of.

If weak men are disgusting, it is strong men that have made them such. If our society is broken by them, it is strong men that have pushed them to it.

Giving them equal respect for being that which they are, submissive, gives them a healthy outlet.

Cheap shot about insecurity aside, what -is- it that is so disturbing about a man that submits? That gives up his dominance?

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On a certain odd level, this sort of is submission.... Though again...it's a broken form of it.

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I have indeed, though my idea of a good man might differ from what you think. I have thought of a master but have mostly decided that this only exists as a concept for me. In practice it just isn't as interesting(or doesn't stay interesting). But mostly when I speak of "Where have all the good men gone?" I wonder why so many sweet and gentle men seem so damaged. Not all, but certainly many.

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We're going through a time of change. It's becoming ok to step out of the macho mold and into ...something else. Perhaps a collar. But the men doing so aren't very good at it yet. They are fragile. I'm not as good at leading as I wish I was, as I have no roadmap. Almost all the FemDom writing I've found worth reading turns out to be written by lesbians.

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Actually, though this might get me for a moment, I'd require something more. I'd require the man have a vision. One I can get behind, and dedicate myself to. I want to keep riding the edges of possibility.

Though nice arms is good too. I prefer my pets to be very physically strong, for instance.

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True men? I thought the only requirement to be a true man was a 'winkle', as someone put it. If a man is not a 'true man', what is he? Surely not a woman. Maybe he's a goat.

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Women as a type group might not be so complex as some men think. Women as individuals? I think I may be more complicated than you think.

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wasn't trying to assert that life was fair. I know better than that. I still sometimes root for the underdog tho. Long compassionate streak beneath the bitch on wheels exterior.

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Again, that perspective thing. I see evidence that society has created a situation where men must lead and women must follow, but I don't really see the evidence that this has anything to do with 'nature'. Your perspective is no doubt affected by the fact that you are a strong man. Mine by the fact that I am a woman who doesn't generally let men tell her what to do.

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Ah Tomboy. Yes, the term for a women who wants to do manlike things. In my greatgrandmother's day, Manly things included holding down a job(She was a Tailor). In My grandmother's day it included driving and voting. In my mother's it included her owning a business. In my childhood I was dubbed a 'Tomboy' for wanting to do such boyish things as climb trees.

Certainly a feminine woman could be a leader. But simply by wishing to be a leader, and acting on it, she acts in a 'man-like' manner, as society is concerned. Despite the fact that she is acting out her nature, she is called unnatural.

We still live in a time when often -practicality- is considered masculine. If I go work outside with old clothes, a ponytail and no make-up, I'm sometimes considered a 'tomboy'.

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ORIGINAL: SirDarkside357

I normally wouldn't respond to your post, but I will make an exception here........actually I was born in 1953, I never said I was living the Gorean life, I said I was living the life I live, the DSF way......

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and yes I was born into a DSF family, I was raised this way.  I made the mental choice to live the way I live at the ripe age of 10.

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And remember I grew up in the 50's and 60's, the son of the sheriff of the county, if you know anything about these times, you know that I would have seen more than your average child, we weren't as sheltered as many are today.

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Yes, when I matured I added adult things to my life, just as any normal person would.

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As for "damage" controle, I do any of that, that I feel I need to do, in my home, not online.  I have given Passion, a good bit of freedom in the cyber world, that is my choice, and if I feel she has gone past the point that I allow, I stop her.  As for you, I have little interest in speaking more.

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ORIGINAL: frog

Oh, i dunno....i've found quite a few manly men here in Eastern Iowa / Western Illinois that have made me all weak-kneed and belly-quivered. 
 
Guess it all depends on preference and perception. 

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Greetings Rapture,

When something similar occured on an email list, I was told that DSF stood for Darkside Family.

Besides that I think most everything else is probably correct.


Orion

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ORIGINAL: xBullx

I have always had great success at a great price on abbebooks.com

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Now, now take a good look at the man in the picture and think about his character in this writing. Do you really think I scare off by pets of the woman? (winks) The room proves a great deal though. In fact it would seem obvious that I have you physically outmatched. Though I seldom let down my guard that easy. It is more the fact that my mind, chacater and demeanor also has you at bay. I do detect you would be a handful to conquer, but I have little doubt of my ability to get the job down. I wouldn't suggest the room if you weren't a wench I found desireable.(smirks)

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I doubt you hate the idea yourself, well, apart from the result you see as inevitable. But that's ok. I'll let you take your fantasy any way you need to for now. (winks)

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Uhmmmm, respect is not given. Any man can earn my respect,but it takes his ability to achieve standards that I have in my mind. Respect can be conditional and subjective to some degree. No I would not defend my slave if you spouted off to her. Assuming you had a reason to accost her, she earned what she is getting. If you attack her unjustly perhaps I will step in and say something, but most likely it would be in a reference to your actions more so than what is being done to her. My girl knows her place and if she did something wrong she would take her medicine from you and pray to god it ended there, I assure you that your punishment pales in comparison to mine.. But if she did nothing, she knows that her punishment ends with you. And that by taking it with great discipline she might find me pleased. I tend to dislike cats in the house. I also tend to defend that worthy of defense.

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Well, I'll have to take your word on the switch thing. To me that is surely someone that is unsure of what the heck they are. But I don't know. If it suites you, I suppose that's ok until you get in the room.

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-poses a bit showing her a perfect man-

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I can understand your need to control your life until you find that man you can surrender to. Nothing wrong there. Our society has produced less and less of those men. And since the world demands them less and less I suppose girls like you have smaller windows of opportunity to belong to one. But it seems kinda backwards that in a world where you find it so hard to find that true man you would support a world filled without his type.

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There aren't many women like me. I agree they exist, but very few do.

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There are more women that in the absence of strong men have been forced in their minds to assume thois role. Those men you are defending are the reason for this. They take the path of least resistance and the path easiest traveled to get the pussy. They sit with absent mind and the sense of ignorance and inability to force the female hand to dominance. It's not all that impressive to witness when I spend my time fulfilling my role as a man. I don't see these as weak men, I see them as weak males. Men accept their roles and responsibilities in life. males want pussy at any cost.

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I like Naja, I get alot out of her discussions with me. She's a nut, and very bright. I value her free woman thoughts. She is the kind of woman I don't see as a slave, she serves the world well in her capacity.

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I see a male that surrendered his strengths, perhaps he wasn't meant to be a man, I don't know.

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I do actually have a different view on his types then I did some time ago. Someone should carry home the boxes of shoes you free women bring home. Slave girls fill their role with me, why would that disturb me.

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Now, noisey free women, that is another issue unto itself. Your phsyco babble about him bringing out an insecurity in me is rather weak don't you think. I mean, come on, do you truely think I have any security issues about my station.

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I'm curious, why are you so quick to blame strong men for the bad and so slow to tell the weak males to stiffen up and act their station.

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Why give them yet another reason to be weak. Insist they be strong or you will turn to the strong for your needs.

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Perhaps it is you women we should blame for these weak fellows. Now as silly as that argument was, I found yours no less fruitful. Why don't you just give me your respect, you expect me to earn that don't you? Yet you think I should lower my standards of conduct for men and give them a free pass. Now that is a mazing.

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I don't argue that is a form of submission to surrender to a feamel simply to get pussy. I suppose you would have trouble understanding why I despise that though. So we'll just move along.

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Sounds to me like you feel sorry for them.....

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Are you sure we are. Don't be to sure that the things you see in good ole SF are what the rest of the country thinks. You live in the extreme left. You may not be that, but it's all around you.

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Men will never be good at a collar. Casterated males might be. But don't mix your definitions to simply support your point of view.

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I know that you could most likely share a glass of bubbly with Rapture and discuss submission, he lives near you. No matter the insanity I am sure you wouldn't get bored in his collar.

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As for the lesbian comment. I have no response to that. I can't get them to discuss things with me. All I ever get is some mumbo jumbo about hard wires and soft cocks.

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Your thoughts betray you woman. Do you think that it is only you and I that see your moist thighs. (winks)

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All males have winkles.. Men don't use them to think with. hmmmm, I've heard that term from someone before today I do believe. Interesting. Not an all to common term of penial endearment.

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Lets take your wheels for a run. You won't need that pity for the weak ones any longer.

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I suppose generally you don't and might be pretty enough that you have had a long line of pussy grubbers. Perspective isn't always parallel to reality pet.

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We still live in a time when often -practicality- is considered masculine. If I go work outside with old clothes, a ponytail and no make-up, I'm sometimes considered a 'tomboy'.

Well, nough said there.....

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Serve well woman,

Bull

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ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria

Depends on the pets, I bet Najak's might give you pause.

Yes, you have me outmatched physically. That should be fairly obvious. I'm fairly small and you are...not. Although I'd guess we are in fairly similar fitness, your size and strength, and 'warrior' state make that not in contest. The rest though? *raises an eyebrow* Well, I suppose you might think so. I don't think I'd dominate you, as it's rather against your character to be dominated. But I doubt you'd win me over either.

The difficulty here being that regardless of the outcome of the room, I don't see that it proves anything. Any 'conquest' based on such a situation seems unlikely to last past the opening of the door(aside from the rather permanent outcome you mentioned). And if the situation were flipped to one where I have an advantage, the situation might be different. We -are- discussing dominance other than the physical, yes?

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Inevitable? Not in the slightest. The outcome would depend on a lot. One of which would depend on whether you remained honorable. Since I don't know you enough to trust you to not attempt to 'conquer' by main force(you did suggest the possibility of corpses, so force doesn't seem out of the equation ), I'd never agree to enter the situation. And barring that the outcome is anything but inevitable.

Not that it might not have a certain entertainment value.

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Interesting. So you hold your kajira in low value? I'd have thought a man of strength would be willing to defend his property? Why would you let a slave who has placed her trust in you to be harmed without cause, when you could easily prevent it? I realize you may not see the harm in words, but for some, they cut deeper than physical wounds.

As to the respect, and the -act- of respecting your fellow humans....well, I tend to give -some- basic modicum of respect until it is lost, you seem to ask people to earn even that. I think that is just a difference of opinion. Your way seems very divisive, whereas mine might cause a 'watering down' of some sort. Neither consequence is certain, nor is either perfect.

I can respect your conviction, and lack of inconsistencies, even if I'm less certain how I feel about some of the outcomes of such philosophy.

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I don't think that is true of all switches. In some ways it is not true of me. I'm not unsure of what I am. I am me, and nothing else. I know for the most part what I like, and what I desire. But considering the world I find myself in, no. I'm not absolutely certain what I want. Hence my time of 're-evaluation'

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Heh, you're cute. But I've heard that one before.

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Again, we are splitting hairs about what history held and how we got where we are. Just because society gave women no choice but to submit does not mean they submitted to those worthy of them. From where I stand, historically our system has been very often very unkind to strong women. And I'm by no means taking it as granted that there are less and less strong men about. Although I will say that soft men are more honest about it these days.

I tend to feel that if we make it acceptable to be weak, to be gentle, to play a supportive role... That if we note how hard it is to be strong, but -also- how worthy(to continue to encourage the strong).... that weak men will cease to pretend they are strong. And cunning cowards will not feel the need to cheat and use treachery to gain respect. Because from my perspective, cunning cowards rule the world right now. I much more respect a soft man that accepts this fact, and is brave enough to stand up and admit it, than one who resorts to treachery.

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If you are what you claim, there aren't many men like you either.

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huh. You talk of forcing the female hand to dominance, yet some wish to be dominant. What you do not address here is that some men -do not-. And a society that only respects strength from men forces a -man's- hand to dominance. Often with poor results. Sometimes with tragic.

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You have a very narrow notion of what is a man. It seems any man who doesn't follow your personal code of behavior, or one much like it isn't a Man. Many men in history have had great strength and dignity in serving(samurai mentioned come to mind). In cultures where this was acceptable. We live in one where it is not, and it is hard(though by no means impossible) to hold yourself in dignity if what you -are- is considered forbidden or disgusting by your peers.

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Exactly, and slave men fill their role as well, so why would that disgust you? My comment was in reference to you
eeing in the man 'what you would never be'. And I don't understand how this disturbs. You will never be a cow, or a tree either, and they cause little disturbance. Unless you have a fear that you -might- become like them(which I doubt), or a resentment that some of them succeed despite the fact that they don't work as hard as you. But again, that seems apples and oranges.

The point being, they are -not- like you. The criteria for 'success' is different for them. They do not seek conquest, or control, just acceptance and to be useful. And sex. We all seem to have an interest in that, including kajira, I'm sure. Instincts at work there.

I just don't see what the source of this revulsion you have toward men who are soft and -honest- about it. Aside from good old puritan conditioning.

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Lol, but I -like- being noisy.

I do believe I mentioned that the insecurity bit was a cheap shot, but I guess I wasn't clear that it was a joke. Mostly. Seriously though, no I don't really believe insecurity is at play, though I do think it often is in the case of men who can't stand weakness in other men. I think it's jmight just be good-old puritan values. If a man shows weakness, kick 'im till he toughens up. I don't think this works.

If this is not true...what is? Why the disgust?

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Because I tend to think of comments like this as misogynistic crockery. Please, their 'station'? Why are -you- so quick to tell a weak man to stiffen up if it is not in their nature?

I don't think the bad is the fault of the strong. But I do think that in our world some of that bad comes from the strong tearing down the weak, -but not killing them- . And the weak man turns to other means to gain a place within society, and treachery and avarice are the result. For what is avarice, all too often, but a weak man who thinks that filling his pockets will earn him respect...of his fellow men, of women, of himself...and when he finds this not true, but sees a man -above- him(wealthier, more 'successful') seemingly respected and sinks to deeper levels treachery to 'win'.

It seems we have the choice to toss the weak off cliffs(This is -Sparta-!), to tear apart any chance they have at self-respect with shame and disgust, or to find a place for them, where they can be true to themselves.

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I will turn to the strong when I need strength, and the soft when I need a gentle hand, or compliance. Just as you turn to your fellow Man when you need strength(no man is an island) and your soft women when you need softness. For who do the strong turn to when in need of strength but their peers?

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I do not expect you to earn a basic modicum of respect. I respect you enough to not steal from you, harm you or kill you. I respect you enough to give your ideals some benefit of the doubt before insulting them. I respect you enough to not revile you for being true to yourself. Should you act in certain ways, you lose respect. If you act in others, you might earn my -true-, or deeper respect.

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Actually, this is what I wonder. I might have trouble understanding, but I'm certainly willing to try.

But again, I seriously doubt men decide to be submissive because they think it will get them laid. Being honest about their submissiveness seems, at least from my perspective, to greatly reduce their chances of getting pussy than pretending to not be would.

Although it is true that the notion of submission is a primarily a sexual fantasy for many men, the same could be said of many women. I've talked to a few Doms who were distressed by a tendency amongst some pretty young subs to have a prima dona attitude. They submit because it's the best way to get a man to do all the work. This isn't very deep submission in my opinion, I don't know about you.

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More truly, I mourn them. There was possibility there, but it is shattered. Much like when I see a stretch of old-growth cut, or see a perfect climbing cliff that has been damaged to allow a highway to pass, I mourn the beauty that was, or could have been. And I feel anger, mostly a directionless anger, that this could be, especially when the damage is epidemic. And I often feel compelled to do what I can to protect what fragile beauty I can.

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True, but change -is- underway. Not so much of late, but over the past century? You can't deny that there has been a major groundshift. Women are no longer automatically considered property. Women vote, hold down jobs, hold public office and are considered equal in the eyes of the law. This is a major difference.

Far more recently, Men have started to show signs of being allowed to show weakness. To cry, to show emotion. To let women lead. Although it probably won't actually happen, we are currently closer than we've ever been before to the possibility of a female president.

I keep a half an eye on what styles of things play on TV, while actually watching it as little as possible, as a sort of barometer of what people are thinking about, and what is considered palatable in a fair number of american homes. It's not just Kooky California.

Heck, you've noted the trend yourself. You just seem really distressed by it, while I think it's great. Though we do seem to be having some troubles with growing pains....As not all of society shifts at the same pace, any major change causes friction.

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I'm not mixing definitions. And unless you are speaking of literal castration, I'm not sure what your getting at. In -my- world view, in the definitions I use, Man="adult male". And the references to men without power being 'castrated', seems to give the impression that power is inherent in the balls. I've met plenty of folk who have something swinging, but very little power. And some who don't, who's power is unquestionable.

The 2 seem to have little to do with one another. In fact, since few men have what I think you'd call real strength in any great degree, it seems that the natural state of the 'male' is to -not- be strong, and he needs to work, strive and try to accomplish the state of being a 'man'. Apparently getting told to toughen up and take it like a man helps too.

I don't buy it. I think Dominance and real power is not the birthright of -all- men, rather it is the birthright of some, while others have different birthrights just as worthy, of a different sort. In this same vein, I think it is the birthright of some women as well, despite our society's disempowering or 'castration'(to use your very odd word for the removal of power) of such women. I will accept that there do seem to be more men of a driven nature(which lends itself to dominance), and more women of a reasonable nature(which lends itself to submission). More dominant by nature men than women.

As to whether a man will be good at a collar, some are. With the right training many can become so. with the right upbringing it would be much less difficult. As mentioned before, Samurai wore something much like the collar(figuratively) quite comfortably. They were well respected by their culture. It will be far more difficult for a man to be comfortable in the collar until it is societally acceptable.

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It would take more than me not getting bored. Though I'm always up for a nice chat about a subject I have an interest in. No -my- submission, mind. That subject often gets very uninteresting, very quickly. I'm rather choosy about who I talk at length with about the subject.

And yes, that's a compliment. Don't let it go to your head, either of em.

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Um, huh. Probably a case of a disconnect in communication. Despite the fact that each of you thinks you are speaking the same language, a very different set of life experiences has caused a slightly different meaning to a lot of words and phrases, making -actual- understanding really hard. Especially as it's -seems- understanding should be easy, or even that it has occurred. Strangely enough, this sort of thing is happening, to varying degrees, all the time.

As to the origin of the comment, I was only talking about the fact that there is a serious empty spot in the area of actually good femdom literature and imagery. And that for some reason all the good stuff we do have seems to have been written by lesbian women, or bisexuals who seem to lean that way. Not that I have anything against that, but it does make one wonder...ok, what about people like -me-?

In the concepts of Joseph Campbell, we are lacking in proper myths. Myths being a very powerful tool for aligning ones life to a fixed point, one that feels natural. A very good example of a powerful myth is easy at hand, the books of Gor. Obviously, there is a mythological structure here that is very strong, and useful to many. Another example is apparently Star Wars. We also have many that are far less obvious floating about.

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As to my states of arousal. Sure. Flirting is fun, and can certainly get me interested.

Didn't it get you?

But I don't let my arousal dictate my actions. Or, to put it in clearer terms, I don't use my cunt to think with any more than you use your dick. So again, though someone might interest me a moment(as I said) from the interplay of flirtation... that hardly counts as a 'conquest'. Even if I decide 'Hey, I'm horny, why not' and sleep with a man, I don't really see what sex has to do with conquest, except in that some men I decide to sleep with seem to end up smitten.

Shrug. When I said I've never really submitted to a man before I was -not- referring to sex. I am, after all, a virgin too.

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Again, I don't get you redefining a word in common parlance to mean something other than what most people seem to understand it to mean. Except, of course, for creating a value judgment on those who don't follow your code.

I use 'winkle' because puella uses it earlier in the thread. Not a term I use often, though I might start. It's just so....-cute-!

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Not sure if I have pity or not. Bit hard to tell. Certainly I have compassion for those in pain, though. Unless they were asking for it.

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Meh, all women deal with a good handful of pussy grubbers, prettiness only seems to change the flavor, and even that not much. I'm not sure what this has to do with not letting men tell me what to do though.

No, perspective is -never- parallel to reality, and that was my point. Mine ain't and yours ain't either. We each have a -very- limited view of the world, despite both our travelings. Because no matter where we go we are always seeing the world through our own perspective, and that changes everything we see. So nailing down 'truth' is a bit tricky.

All we can do is converse, and try to understand. Or, if our opinion is important enough to us, attempt to convince. Or conquer. It's something we all do, because we all want the world to fall a little closer in line with how we wish things were. For instance, you wish our society didn't 'castrate' men, I wish it didn't disempower strong women. I think we both wish it wouldn't reward cunning over integrity quite so much.

We wouldn't be dominant if we didn't have some pretty particular ideas of how we like things...

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ORIGINAL: xBullx

Greetings Woman,

It sure was nice of you to drop by. You act as though you're shocked at something I would say. As if we have been on some terms of endearment in the past and you are horrified at my recent behavior. The fact is you have never liked me and never will. That's ok though, I return those exact feelings. I said nothing to anyone here that I haven't said before. You have no idea of the intention of my statements or why I made them, nevermind do you know what result I'm intending to inspire. The world isn't always as simple as you want it to be. You may not also be privy to other conversations that are going on. Am I at times a bit rough around the edges? You bet. Will I change that so some self righteous woman like you that seems to on multiple occasions make my business her own, NO!

Your intitled to your opinion and it's well beyond obvious that you're aware of that. I have absolutely no idea what Iowa has to do with who or what I am. I live here, I have also lived in North Carolina, Texas, Germany and had brief stints in other far reaching regions of the world. So I have experienced a great many cultures, all of which I would say have impacted my thought process on a great many things. I guess you and I should just count our blessing we come from different walks, and or sides of the street. I know I do. I'm not sure why you think that I learned my Gorean viewpoints from Iowa or the vanilla folks of Iowa. Surely there are all walks of life on your side of the state. I do know that both Davenport and Cedar Rapids have rather accomplished BDSM groups. Perhaps they make themselves rather obvious at your Cattlemens and Pork Producers events. Do they wear their full leather garb at these events? Carry their whips and chains?

You know that until this post at me, I say at, because it is obvious that you're firing at. I had never even looked to see your sexual preference. It never mattered to me. I normally deal with people at face value. I don't care who they swap spit with. You have always been contemptuous towards me, and that's ok. It told me early on that all your opinions about me would have a hint of prejudice. You can bet I would never "wink" in your direction. You weren't my type before I even realized sexually, I wasn't yours. I surely wouldn't call you a wench, as that is a term of endearment from me. I have called many the free women I like, free wench, they know I am teasing and not being disrespectful to their sensative natures.

As far as talking with you I have offered to even buy you dinner. You declined and were quite pointed in ensuring I knew that it would never happen. You seem to be softening in your position now. I would like to withdrawl that offer now though as you seem bias against me and I doubt the information I would get would be able to help shape or improve my opinion as a man. But I may be wrong about that too. I'm sure you will enlighten me. I'm curious as to why you felt the need to alert me to the fact I am not one of your favorite Doms and that you wouldn't allow me special favors. Did you really think I'd be interested? And though I'm sure someone values the moistness of your thighs, I don't believe I made my reference to yours. But if the fantasy of it helps, by all means, go right ahead. I guess I don't have to worry you using me sexually in this fantasy. So as it seems to be your turn to do the battle of wits with "Bull", have at it, if you make a post worthy of response, I shall respond in turn. Do try to keep it at least R rated, I'm a bit sensative beyond that. I am after all, a virgin.(the last part was an attempt at pointed humor.)

Welcome to Gor,

Bull

Edited to ad--->
P.S. I'm not going to respond to more aggression, It has been a good thread without to much flaming, I will not contribute to that sort of thing, you took your shot and received my rebuttle. I doubt more needs said, but say what you must. If you have something constructive to add, I'll take the time as I did for Alaria, to respond.

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ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


Greetings Boy, (unless you wish to acknowledge that I actually have a name and use it rather than that rather lame passive agressive woman blab)

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I find your reply rather humorous in that I obviously said something that got under your skin which was not my intent. I was meerly being clear in my communication. Your assumption that it was anything else is rediculous, it is unfortunate that you get your tighty whities or boxers in a bunch so easily.  As far as you shocking me, impossible. Nor do I have enough information to either like or dislike you. For me, you are only pixels on my computer screen, no more no less. Again, you make the mistake of assuming too much importance in my world. In fact, your reply to me is more wrong assumption than anything else. Your loss.

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Now as far as an offer of dinner and my refusal. I dislike being set up to fail and that is what I saw in that initial offer. I would not meet any man from the internet after a few exchanges on a website. Do not assume you are any different. In addition as an aside, I don't meet a woman after just a few brief written words either. I prefer to not be a police report, as least not that sort. You retract your offer as though I should be either honoured to have gotten it or now, somehow disheartened. Trust me, neither applies.

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It is unfortunate that you assume a woman speaking clearly, bluntly and with humour is communicating with agression. I remember reading the statistics on written internet communication, 75% or more are misunderstood. It is obvious you misunderstand almost all of mine based upon a bias that you hold. I prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt and take the high road. You have your baggage just like everyone else and it will colour how you perceive whatever I write. What you do with it is yours. I am only responsible for myself and my actions and reactions. I am sure that the perception I have of you due to your written words is also not the whole person, I was meerly willing to attempt to see beyond and give the benefit of doubt. I have seen in reading the forum boards, that there are a few I have grown to respect and like to some degree, that feel you have some sort of value as a human being. I was curious to see what they do, hope that my initial measure of you was wrong. I was taught to keep an open mind. I am all to quick to judge people and actually like when I have judged and then been proven wrong. Unfortunately it has been my experience that I am ALMOST always correct in my original measure but I still remain hopeful. I am learning to be more tollerant of what I perceive as weakness of character and understand that no one knows what has created the person we see in front of us, what life has burdened them with.

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Obviously you are determined to maintain my initial impression of the person you are. That is your choice. I was not attacking you in any way, simply voicing my thoughts. You wrote of having questions for lesbians, I offered my answers and made it clear how to get the answers and how not to. If you do not want the answers that is entirely your perogative. It quite simply does not matter one way or another to me at all.

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As far as favourites, I think that term would be demeaning to the men I was speaking of. There are several male dominants who's words on these forums I search for and read. Not because I find them more manly, viral or anything even similar. I don't even always agree with them. One in particular, upon first reading, I thought "what an arrogant horse's hiney!!" Then, in my never ending search for personal growth I asked myself WHY I had such a reaction and began to read his words every chance I got. Thru his words and those of the women that serve him, my respect for him has grown unmeasurably. I have learned alot from him and from others similar to him. I have also grown and rid myself of a predjudice I had towards men, especially dominant men, in part because of them. For my submissive female hetro friends I bemoan that there are so few like them.

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Now, if you wish to see what I have just written as aggression, that will be your error. Not mine in the writing as I have clearly stated that is not my intent. Neither is it some odd pathetic attempt at a "battle of wits". If choosing between either of those is how you perceive any written word that does not agree with you, it is quite sad that you limit yourself so. And if so, you and I see the entire world and all types of communication in two, completely different lights. You see, I look at things I do not understand or agree with as a potential for learning and growth. An attack is a sign of weakness to me, saying that the attacker or the person that mistakenly perceives themselves as being attacked, is close minded and/or so insecure in themselves they cannot imagine anything else. Battling wits, unless for fun between friends, is just purely useless.

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All in all, you will read what I write as you are already conditioned to read it and either respond based upon that conditioning or not. Of course the choice is yours. My only advise to you is that perhaps you could open your mind to the idea that not all see things exactly as you do. Some of us have a very hard time even imagining your vision it is so impossible to us. And yet for some of us, even though your vision is preposturous, we do not believe it is a sign of weakness on our part for us to acknowledge that it works for you and others. Some of us are secure enough in ourselves , and cuious enough to try and understand, even knowing it isn't for us.