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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 2:26:45 PM   
seeksfemslave


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RealOne amongst other things said
quote:

when i went through wyoming had a conversation with one of the shop owners about how occasionally a couple gbuys will get drunk and go out into the street to have an old time gun fight, not sure if that applies but they didnt seem to think anything of it lol


If that is true the "fight" probably reduced to who was the first to shoot the other one in the back.sardonic lol

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 2:29:42 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

quote:

You paint a wonderful picture of America.


Sorry... you want a travel brochure, go to another thread.

Nice, completely irrelevant comment though. First you bash Americans for wanting to own guns because there's no reason given your uninformed view over there.  Then you throw out this irrelevant statement when someone points out some truth to the contrary.

We can play "cultural superiority" all day long but by all means, do that in another thread where it's actually relevent (perhaps the one where the brochures are being distributed). Back to the subject at hand, you inadvertently put your finger on the pulse of the argument however, with this statement:



You painted the picture not me. You have the high gun crime rates and fatalities over there and you acknowledge them and say you need a gun to protect yourself from it.


That is right I countered your silly assertion that we are paranoid by bringing in those examples, and you bring up that statement because your point was countered, so you might as well backpeddal and hope nobody else caught on.


quote:

So guns are an eccentric pass time and not necessary now?


I have demonstrated some cases why guns are necessary AND THEN I mentioned that part of that freedom has an additional good. Maybe if I type sloooooooowly you'll be able to comprehend that it can be both. Or is it that you do understand and this is another clumsy dodge?

quote:

As for excesses, I have my share, I just don't believe they should be of the type that fuck other people's lives up. Allowing guns in the hands of sanctimonious mister macho men is just what I call an excess too far.


How's that cake you have there that you are trying to eat as well? First you put forth the argument that the liklihood of being murdered in the United States is absolutely nil by numbers (hence we are all paranoids here for fearing it at every corner). Then out of the other side of your mouth you go grand-standing that it's some significant hazard that "fucks other people's lives up". So, which is it?

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 2:31:20 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
As for being allowed to drive cars that are capable of tripling the speed limit is also pretty meaningless considering most states have speed limits which are heavily policed from my experience over there.


No offense intended ... honestly ... but this statement shows exactly how limited your experience really is. 

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 2:46:26 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
As for being allowed to drive cars that are capable of tripling the speed limit is also pretty meaningless considering most states have speed limits which are heavily policed from my experience over there.


No offense intended ... honestly ... but this statement shows exactly how limited your experience really is. 


Well I have to admit to not being to 50 states but I remember seeing a lot of traffic police in both California and New England area and very low speed limits. Not that I'm against sensible speed limits.

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(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 2:48:14 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

How's that cake you have there that you are trying to eat as well?



Are you jealous that we have more freedoms here than there? Though you seem to have access to enough of the stuff yourself.

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 2:48:43 PM   
JohnSteed1967


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Gun Control WOULD NOT have averted this tragedy! Do you know WHY?? I will tell you. Very simply because He could have just as easily gotten a built a BOMB or just as easily taken a SWORD. niether are affected by your gun control laws, and killed just as many people!!

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 2:50:15 PM   
Pulpsmack


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FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE HELD OUT FOR STATISTICS...

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_02.html

http://webapp.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe


According to the FBI: our near 300, million population has only experienced 16,692 murders in 2005 which includes ALL murders.

The Center for disease control published in 2004 649 deaths

So, pretending for a moment that ALL murders committed were committed with guns and you add the two, you have 17,341 fatal firearms incidents

Total violent crime: 1,390,695 (this is only the reported, successful crimes, not the attempts)

Motor vehicle deaths: 45,113

Thus, cars are more than twice as deadly, and for 17,000 firearms deaths, there were 1,390,695 incidents where someone could have benefitted from the protection of one.

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 4/20/2007 2:57:58 PM >

(in reply to Pulpsmack)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 2:51:51 PM   
Pulpsmack


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From: Louisiana
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quote:


Meatcleaver
Are you jealous that we have more freedoms here than there? Though you seem to have access to enough of the stuff yourself.


Care to reply to the merit of the argument or, is this your way of losing gracefully?

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 2:53:00 PM   
Vendaval


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The first link works fine.  The second one leads to a blank page.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE HELD OUT FOR STATISTICS...

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_02.html

http://webapp.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe




_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Pulpsmack)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 2:53:56 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967

Gun Control WOULD NOT have averted this tragedy! Do you know WHY?? I will tell you. Very simply because He could have just as easily gotten a built a BOMB or just as easily taken a SWORD. niether are affected by your gun control laws, and killed just as many people!!


He could have killed more but the Hollywood macho man needs to feel the power of his gun in his hand. My guess is that parking a truck with explosive needs a demented ideology to carry it out and the hope of escape. This guy was on a suicide mission, his death was part of the scene. But it isn't the one off masacres that is the problem with guns, shocking as they are, it is the accummulation of deaths.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 3:01:16 PM   
Pulpsmack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval


The first link works fine.  The second one leads to a blank page.



http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html

Try filling in the fields yourself. It won't link the filled out page.

I used "after 1999", "all injury", and "firearms"

(in reply to Vendaval)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 3:04:04 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

quote:


Meatcleaver
Are you jealous that we have more freedoms here than there? Though you seem to have access to enough of the stuff yourself.


Care to reply to the merit of the argument or, is this your way of losing gracefully?


Just bored and I'm off to use my freedoms to enjoy the nightlife and the liberal laws of this wonderful country.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 3:04:46 PM   
cloudboy


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If you look at my entire posting record, you won't find one thing indicating I want to change any existing laws.

I was operating in the sphere of public policy debate, logic, relevant facts, and the greater rationales surrounding the needs for gun ownership.

Handguns are already heavily regulated. I'm not actually upset with existing laws and don't know all the specific in's and out's.

What I don't like and have posted about here is the whole mythology of gun ownership --- how guns equate with personal "safety" or how guns serve to elevate socieity and civil liberty. This making of guns and gun ownership into a "public good," as tools to ward off the next "Hitler," while discounting the cost of their widespread distribution is a POV I find severly flawed.

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 3:13:01 PM   
caitlyn


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You have been to California and New England ... and thats all?
 
When you visit Belgium a few times, you probably have at least a clue about Belgium. We have counties here in Texas, that are as big as Belgium.
 
America is pretty diverse. Houston and San Antonio are about three hours apart (driving at 90mph on those "highly regulated" highways), and are completely different. Austin is an hour from San Antonio and about three from Houston, and is very much different than either one. I wouldn't be so silly as to make blanket statements that included people in Houston, Austin and San Antonio, which are only three hours apart. You make blanket statements about the whole country, but have hardly visited here at all.
 
Dude ... do yourself a favor and pull the ripcord. You are only going to prove that you have no clue, to people that already know it.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 3:14:24 PM   
Pulpsmack


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Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

quote:


Meatcleaver
Are you jealous that we have more freedoms here than there? Though you seem to have access to enough of the stuff yourself.


Care to reply to the merit of the argument or, is this your way of losing gracefully?


Just bored and I'm off to use my freedoms to enjoy the nightlife and the liberal laws of this wonderful country.


By all means, go enjoy the nightlife in Utopia, and when you sit back and nurse a pint of your favorite poison, perhaps you'll find the time to lash together a cogent argument that can preserve your wild assertions in the face of the (non-political source) statistics I have gathered. I suspect however, this is the last we will hear from you... at least as far as the merits of the argument are concerned, although I would not be surprised to see a few irrelevent quips lobbed here and there to save face. Nevertheless, you (in particular) and everybody else who railed for statistics seem pretty much out of gas (although I welcome any other vain attempts)

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 4/20/2007 3:16:09 PM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 3:17:34 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
If you look at my entire posting record, you won't find one thing indicating I want to change any existing laws.


That's why I said "seem." I was a little unsure of your position.
 
You can call personal safety a myth, if you wish. Probably won't play well to those that feel more safe with a gun.  

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 5:37:16 PM   
Hime


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Joined: 10/31/2006
From: Vegas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I also think that even if everyone had a right to tote a gun down the street that we should have the right to state "you may not bring your gun here". People do not have to go to a college, or a church, or a stadium.... these are choices. Even if one theoretically thinks that gun ownership is a right, even concealed weapons, that does not give a person a right to carry that weapon wherever they like. For example, I own my home, and I can tell people to keep their guns out of it. The state can tell people that on state property they cannot bring their guns. Just because you have the right to own something does not mean you have the right to bring it wherever you like. For example, I could not take a dog wherever I wanted, although I have the right to own one.




A Daughter's Regret

Suzanna Gratia Hupp will live the rest of her life with regret. Had she been carrying her gun the day a madman executed her parents while she cowered helplessly and then fled, she is convinced she could have stopped one of the worst massacres in U.S. history.

She has told the story many times over. Tomorrow she will relate it again before advocates of gun rights in a counter-rally to the Million Mom March. Put yourself in her shoes, she asks, and then think again whether gun control is the answer.

It was October 1991 when an unemployed merchant seaman drove his pickup truck into a Luby's cafeteria in Killeen, Tex., leaped out and opened fire. He killed 23 people and wounded more than 20. Hupp and her parents were having lunch in the restaurant when the shooting started. Hupp instinctively reached into her purse for her .38-caliber Smith & Wesson, but she had left it in the car. Her father tried to rush the gunman and was shot in the chest. As the gunman reloaded, Hupp escaped through a broken window, thinking her mother was behind her.

But Hupp's mother had crawled alongside her dying husband of 47 years to cushion his head in her lap. Police later told Hupp they saw her mother look up at the gunman standing over her, then bow down before he shot her in the head.

"I'd like people to think about what happened to me, and try to place themselves in that situation," Hupp said yesterday between a string of interviews in which she relived the tragedy as Exhibit A in her argument against restrictive gun laws. "Now, instead of thinking of their parents, have it be their children. "Even if you choose not to have a gun, as the bad guy who ignored all the laws is getting close to you and as he levels that firearm at one of your children, don't you hope the person next to you has chosen to carry a gun and knows how to use it?"
The story is powerful, and not only because the question assaults the brain and invites no easy answers. With its implied alternative of an armed Hupp gunning down the bad guy before he gets too far, the story invokes the American legend of the frontier lawman who acts alone to thwart evil. Unable to don that mantle when it could have saved her parents, Hupp, now 40, has been trying ever since to rally people against gun control.

When Texas debated the issue of concealed weapons in 1995, she strolled around the table at a committee hearing molding her fingers into a gun that she aimed at state senators. The next year, she ran as a Republican and won election as a state representative, an office she still holds.

She has promoted other issues, such as water rights. But her personal story trumps all other issues. For years, the National Rifle Association paid her expenses as she traveled the country testifying in favor of gun rights. Her story always commands attention. Before the massacre at Luby's cafeteria, nothing in Hupp's background suggested that she would become so closely associated with gun rights.

She was raised in central Texas, the middle of three children. Her father, Al, owned a heavy equipment store. Her mother, Ursula, was a homemaker.

Al Gratia was a man so gentle he didn't hunt and even quit fishing because he didn't want to hurt the fish. But he owned a BB gun, and taught his children how to shoot and practice gun safety. After Hupp's brother shot and killed a dove, however, no one in the family ever used the gun again.

As a child, Hupp was a victim of careless gun use. When she was 11, she was fishing with her brother and some friends when one of the youths handed a pellet gun to another youth and it went off. Hupp has a two-inch-long scar near her right elbow where the pellet entered her skin and had to be dug out. After getting a degree as a chiropractor in 1985, she moved to Houston. An assistant district attorney who was a patient suggested she carry a gun as self-defense in the big city.
She argued against it, partly because it was then illegal to carry a concealed weapon in Texas.
"Better to be tried by 12 than carried by six," she recalls her patient advising her. Another friend gave her a pistol as a gift and taught her how to shoot it.
She carried it in her purse. But, afraid of losing her chiropractic license if she were arrested for carrying a concealed weapon, she often kept it beneath the passenger seat of her car.


That's where it was, 150 feet from Hupp's grasp, the day George Hennard burst into Luby's. The what-ifs haunt her. Hennard stood barely 10 feet from her. He was up, she was down. She had clear aim. The upturned table would have steadied her hand. Though not a crack shot, she had hit smaller targets from farther distances.

"The point is, people like this--no, scumbags like this; I won't put them in the people category--are looking for easy targets," said Hupp. "That's why we see things occurring at schools, post offices, churches and cafeterias in states that don't allow concealed carrying."

Nothing sways her. After the 1999 shooting at Columbine High School, Hupp seemed to suggest that teachers should carry concealed weapons. She insists that what she said was something different: "I wanted to know why the state treats teachers like second-class citizens, when plumbers and doctors are allowed to protect themselves on the job," she said. "I would be happier sending my child to a school where a teacher whom I trust is armed and well prepared."

She is equally oblique when talking about places where guns are banned. Even in Texas, which began allowing concealed weapons in 1996, guns are banned from several types of establishments, including churches, sports arenas, government offices, courts, airports and restaurants serving alcohol. Hupp refuses to say outright that she believes people should be allowed to carry guns to church. She picks her words carefully.

"We have created a shopping list for madmen," she said. "If guns are the problem, why don't we see things occurring at skeet and trap shoots, at gun shows, at NRA conventions? We only see it where guns aren't allowed. The sign of a gun with a slash through it is like a neon sign for gunmen, 'We're unarmed. Come kill us.' "

To Hupp, the right to bear arms is a family issue. Her two sons will grow up learning to defend themselves with a gun. The elder son, 4, has been taught gun safety and has fired his first shot.

"A gun can be used to kill a family, or defend a family," Hupp said. "I've lived what gun laws do. My parents died because of what gun laws do. I'm the quintessential soccer mom, and I want the right to protect my family. What happened to my parents will never happen again with my kids there."

{washington post article}



~ xoxo


(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 5:51:03 PM   
juliaoceania


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You know, many people are not swayed by emotional pleas such as this. I could regale you with two stories of tragedy I know of personally where I KNOW both regretted having guns in their homes. They could write even more passionately than the piece you post here. One is my aunt who lost her uterus to a gun accident, another is a friend's brother, who lost his brain to a friend that shot him in the head accidently.

I could rewrite that story using the mother's point of view of having her child accidently killed at a friend's house (this boy's family did not own one gun). Now my ancedotal evidence is as compelling in my mind as what you just posted. I do not know how I would live with myself if someone I loved was killed because of my gun. I have heard and read that happens much more often than saving the life of the person that owns the gun


_____________________________

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 5:53:36 PM   
farglebargle


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"I have heard and read that happens much more often than saving the life of the person that owns the gun "

Well, "Intruder doesn't enter home because of high likelyhood of armed response" doesn't exactly lend itself to a headline, does it?

"Women defends herself from mugger, None Hurt"?

I guess in a small town that would get some play.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

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(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/20/2007 5:56:07 PM   
Pulpsmack


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From: Louisiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"I have heard and read that happens much more often than saving the life of the person that owns the gun "

Well, "Intruder doesn't enter home because of high likelyhood of armed response" doesn't exactly lend itself to a headline, does it?

"Women defends herself from mugger, None Hurt"?

I guess in a small town that would get some play.



Amen.

This is why the ignorant erroniously believe that we have an assault rifle epidemic. The media sells shock and horror.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 320
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