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ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

*chuckle*  "I'm right cuz I can beat you up" is really not an effective argument.  Nor has it ever been the point of discussion.  I am a small, slight female. 

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Of course you can beat me in a physical fight.  Heck, even a moderately large woman could; I'm just a short little thing.  But that alone does not make you superior to me, any more than a hulking ex-con on PCP with both his remaining brain cells burned out would be superior to you if he beat you up.  And someone with a semiautomatic rifle could easily kill all of us and the entire Michigan State football team besides.  None of this actually answers the question.

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My challenge is simply this.  Can you or can you not state with confidence that you can do anything that a small, slight female can do, by virtue of your inherent male superiority?  Though I think you've already given your answer, which is to say you are wussing out but trying to save face by saying, "But I can beat you up!"    

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Yet, You will as, many will not go as I have said, one on one, and on your own merit, skill, and persumed 'brawn'.

My point throughout, in case you were not paying attention, is that I am a small, slight female without any brawn.  Brawn can actually be counterproductive when you're working with creatures that can overwhelm any human no matter how big and strong, so we use other methods of establishing social dominance and control that are quite effective.  They have to be. 

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Now being a femdom isn't quite the same thing, but there is very definitely a strong commonality of principle.  One of the reasons I use the profile photo I do is that it's a pretty good depiction of the "Zen" headspace I get into when I am essentially living inside the head of another being and orchestrating their stimulus and responses to the point that I completely control what they are percieving, feeling and thinking in the moment to establish their conditioning.  For me, it really is the same headspace as human D/s.  So I continue using the photo, even though it's a few pounds out of date after I went on a big fitness kick the last couple of years.

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I have great respect for Men who are confident enough in themselves that they do not need to insult and belittle women or compete with women in contests of strength in order to feel more manly. 

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They simply are manly.  None of the Men I have had respectful exchanges with have felt so threatened by the skills and merit of a female that they had to angrily belittle and deny their very existence, and claim to be more competent and knowledgeable than her in those areas even when this is clearly not true.  I wonder why that is?

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I have never claimed any great physical strength - but merit and skill I do have.  If I did not have those things, I would be dead or hospitalized many times over in the normal course of my day.  That is simply how I live and who I am.  It is what defines me.  Now I don't particularly think that this makes me better than anyone else, or superior to anyone else.  I also don't think that what I do is generally very important or relevant to anyone else.  But it is what I do.

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One on one you say, based on merit and skill.  We can start with the original question, as that is definitely one of merit and skill.  Brawn won't help you a bit.  Do you think that you do what a calmly smiling little girl is doing, just because she's a little girl and you're a big man?  Yes or no.  Challenging me to a physical fight is not an answer to this question, and I should think it would be rather demeaning to a man who claims to be Gorean. 

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ORIGINAL: xBullx
Tal Rapture,
Rumor has it you are attempting to fill personal emails with these personal attacks against me....

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ORIGINAL: tangy

im sure you bit a few ppl along the way as well, everyone has a "story" but maybe your this perfect man living in a perfect world.

tangy

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ORIGINAL: xBullx

Greetings Tangy wench,

I've left you alone for the most part simply because of the rose colored glasses you wear and you actually behave most of the time, besides you're free, right. And because in time the beast will bite you as well. It always happens. But none the less you are on your path to enlightenment and self discovery.

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First, I long ago had this same deabte with Naja, well, it was the same context, we won the understanding of one another much sooner and now live in rather simple harmony. She isn't claiming absolute superiority over Rapture. Naja you are allowed to correct this point if I'm incorrect. She is claiming that we all have unique gifts and skill sets, she is a competent and capable woman in her own right.

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I'm sure that she may in time find a man that she thinks, hmmm, I wouldn't mind feeling mushy in his presence. She works with critters, natural beasts, Scary crawly things and fury eat a man things.

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I happen to think that beyond this he said, she said crap, she might quite possibly be a fun and intelligent woman. Yes a woman, one that values a true leader when he or she steps up. Rapture is using the natural order to establish his dominance theory here, that's a pet peave of Najas. She sees nature in it's purest forms everyday, EVERYDAY.

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No one other than Rapture himself is allowing this to continue.

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He is arguing a moot point as I stated in prior posts. He is also standing with all his friends and comrads on this as you have noticed, now, I could have taken full advantage of this situation and called out the dogs and demonstrated that One man has the voice that the community allows. He has no voice where Goreans have final say.

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That's is a proven fact. Go to any Gorean site, ask the folks there. Not a dig at him, just a fact. He actually stands here, in this forum speaking due to the very powers he chastises the most. The BDSMers and females that are trying to allow him fair voice so long as he follows the rules set forth that he agreed to abide by when he joined this place. It's not that he has finally got people to listen to his piece of Gorean logic, it's the society where women are offered some equality allow him the chance to speak. Now that's Irony wouldn't you say?

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So some crazy ass purportedly mouthy ass free woman like Naja allows Rapture the voice he has. I assure you that if it weren't for the likes of her, you would have long since been following him somewhere else hoping to see the next days entertainment. The Goreans or the in crowd, as you seemed to refer to us, (which by the way seems to be the entire crowd after they have had the oportunity to discover his message) always seem to give him his walking papers. Don't you find it unusual that EVERYONE else would be wrong? Well apart from you and he.

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Now. I'm not doing this to attack Rapture, I'm not saying a darn thing that everyone else doesn't know. including him. He makes some good points at times, I agree that women should be in the charge of good men.

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I agree that there are some outspoken females that need silenced by one method or another. But, how well are his tactics working out for him in this society.

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Remember we aren't on the pages of Gor. You can argue all you want that Gor is this or Gor is that, but in the end, Gor is on a page or in the heart. Men have to bring it to life, not one man, but MEN. If you spend your time tearing down the base fabric of the movement, your objective only moves further away from reality.

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Has Naja over stepped her bounds? Only in the eyes of you and Rapture, does it have to do with the in crowd, well shucks, she isn't Gorean, so she isn't of my homestone.

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She isn't in my crowd. I like her talk, her logic and her style. She has become a bit arguementative with Rapture at times, but he inspired it. He brought out the angst.

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He then had to suffer the results. I not once assisted her. I asked a few questions of Rapture as they cropped up. But, she didn't say anything that she hasn't already explained to me in great detail before. As I said, I have had this conversation with her before, it didn't come down to threats and challanges though, we understood one another long before that was needed. She knows she couldn't whip a man like John in a fist fight, the fact is she wouldn't have to.

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We aren't on Gor, their is a police force insuring her consitutional rights and I'm betting that as bright as she is, she would always have a champion to be at her side even if the police were gone. I'm not fuckin' with a big cat or a cobra. However, I could demonstrate to her I am her best chance for survival in a lawless world, that my Gorean beliefs would give her the best hook to hang her hat, uhmm veils on. And that she can rely on me as a man and in turn choose to submit some or all her control to me.

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Then I'll bet she would understand that if she stepped out of line, she might find a man's wrath most unpleasant.

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As Rapture pointed out, yes a woman may infact meet with the collar, even in her own homestone if she can't meet the standards of the men within who's charge she stands. But then this is just one man's, my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

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Hopefully this little debate can end now and we can move forward. Naja I ask you to leave well enough alone as I do believe all have witnessed your point. To continue this would be an escalation of futility. 

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I'd ask Rapture the same, but he is his own man and he will decide his own fate.

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ORIGINAL: starshineowned
Greetings..~smiles~
Clearly there is marked distinction shown here. The fantasy of Gor and (meaning how the society of Gor was purely Dominated by the Man)..and Master Raptures holding to that...and then there is the reality of our world..where the society as a whole is not truely and completely ruled by Man out right nor is it accepted as such. Any type of Domination in our society by Man is frequently and grossly mal-aligned and gives no purity of self for honor or integrity..it's mostly ego and greed.

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One can wish for things to change but at the same time can't negate the reality of the world inwhich we all are living. You can't undo the technology that we have that Gor was limited to..so no matter what..these props will be used if available.

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One would be hard pressed to stand in a court of law and address the female judge as girl or woman simply as a matter of her less superior physical attributes. Does suppose if the nature of one's virtue's is that strong to stand up and call her anything other than your honor and be held in contempt and jailed as a result..one would have to ponder the worth of this. Did such a act truely show your superiority to her female presence and prove your point or did it just result in a bunch of people in a courtroom looking at you like your an idiot, and your now out your time and money as a result?

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This is just an example..but none the less the world, and it has little tolerance for those who wish to buck it. Doing so "if" there is truely a good and honorable reason to do so is one thing..not sure there is any logic otherwise.

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Within the Gor communitys ..offline or online..can surely see more of this respect and distinction of placement required or expected, and though often does not agree with many things directly related to the fantasy aspects of the books..will always agree with many of the thought process's as long as they are valid and modifiable to the reality inwhich lives. Beyond those boundrys though..these thought process's don't carry much weight, and without a supreme being to show up and set everyone straight or some completely catastrophic event occurs..it is likely never going to change to resemble anything like Gor.

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In the event of catastrophy though..this girl surely knows to who's legs she's running to grab hold of for safety.

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ORIGINAL: tangy

lol i attrack the ppl i want to be attracked to me just fine..and im not bouncing, its a point being made....the ones that do purport this thing about unowned slaves not being slaves are not really saying a darn thing, now are they? i there for am free....but if you like to call me Mistress dont bother me much, just like it dont bother me much Master Bull calling me wench......since your the perfect little slave girl, your post arent being very respectful either remember... beauty and be pleasing.

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ORIGINAL: ygraine
"all your doing is being another mouthy female, and standers don't apply because you are friends or part of the "in crowd". other threads tell the slaves and submissive to be " beautiful and pleasing" but yet we all learn by what we see, a bunch of free woman being mouthy and unpleasing themself. "
er...I am seeing the same issue here.  A man told you to stop posting and your reply to him was, as I recall, I am free...then you refered to Rapture as Master Rapture?

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Honestly, you lose credibility every time you post.  This has nothing to do with the "in crowd" this is just logic and common sense.  Please do not accuse people of things then turn around and do the same thing yourself.  Makes you look foolish and it doesn't help your cause.
Ygraine

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ORIGINAL: tangy

Master Bull,

though out this passage you say its not a attack on Master Rapture, but honestly it is....you are TRYING to say what a bad man he is and want me to  take that as gospel because he disagrees with ppl on a web site, so instead of attacking his theories so they attack him personally. but thanks for making that even clearer to me, ~shines up my glasses~

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"And because in time the beast will bite you as well. It always happens"

im sure you bit a few ppl along the way as well, everyone has a "story" but maybe your this perfect man living in a perfect world.

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"I could have taken full advantage of this situation and called out the dogs and demonstrated that One man has the voice that the community allows. He has no voice where Goreans have final say. That's is a proven fact"


call them on out, im sure Master Rapture can stand on his own feet, and does one hell of a job doing it, unlike alot of ppl that need "back up" and their "ass kissed" to make them feel worthy of having a "gorean voice"

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"Go to any Gorean site, ask the folks there. Not a dig at him, just a fact"

thanks but no thanks, im a grown girl i can make my own judgments

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"Don't you find it unusual that EVERYONE else would be wrong? Well apart from you and he. "

wel Master Rapture has his own opinions and isnt afraid to voice them or disagree with the crowd. love him or hate him he gets props for that, not many are willing to do that, they rather be loved by everyone rather to stand up for what they believe in. they rather have everyone saying what a god they are, then standing on their own to feet. i might not agree with everything Master Rapture has to say but what i deeply respect of him, is that he dont need to play up to a crowd, he just says what he believes and sticks to it. if that means none of the "in crowd" goreans like him, he does not even care cuz hes standing there on his OWN two feet with his own respect and dare i say honor of himself for being his own man.

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as of naja ...of course she stepped over bounds...go back and read her post, i see name calling and attacks on him...if your going to debate something why attack the person? why not sit there and debate the subject.....i see your attacking him also and not debating the issue....but are you playing to the crowd? or even though she is a friend of yours, stand and say something to the "female" about how she is disrespecting a Man.....surely not...but i get a big long post cuz im not against Master Rapture....now if i was im sure i wouldnt have got this attention from such a ladies man like yourself

well wishes,
tangy

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ORIGINAL: Rapture

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ORIGINAL: xBullx
Tal Rapture,
Rumor has it you are attempting to fill personal emails with these personal attacks against me....

Actually, I am not filling anyone's email with attacks on you, however I will say that I have said you are not as you protray yourself and if they wished _proof_ of that, I can supply it. Also, I am considering hiring a forensics expert to confirm the writing styles come from you (if i need to (being that I am into foreniscs I know of such persons)).

Enjoy your day.

Rapture

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ORIGINAL: tangy

i dont need some ramdom slave online being my role model but thanks...i have plenty of female rolemodels, that dont need to blow their own horn to get reconnection from others

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The Path To Being A Good slave Takes Hard Work, A Willingness To Learn, Ability To Take Criticism and the Ability To Take Punishments Well. i Am Still Learning So Please Be Patient With me, As i Walk the Path to Being A Good slave.

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ORIGINAL: Rapture

~smiles

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ORIGINAL: xBullx

Greetings Tangy wench,

I've left you alone for the most part simply because of the rose colored glasses you wear and you actually behave most of the time, besides you're free, right. And because in time the beast will bite you as well. It always happens. But none the less you are on your path to enlightenment and self discovery.

....

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First, I long ago had this same deabte with Naja, well, it was the same context, we won the understanding of one another much sooner and now live in rather simple harmony. She isn't claiming absolute superiority over Rapture. Naja you are allowed to correct this point if I'm incorrect. She is claiming that we all have unique gifts and skill sets, she is a competent and capable woman in her own right.

I cannot wait till naja comes to San Francisco to pontificate as she does here. I even invited you. Perhaps you will do the same as you do here too?

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I'm sure that she may in time find a man that she thinks, hmmm, I wouldn't mind feeling mushy in his presence. She works with critters, natural beasts, Scary crawly things and fury eat a man things.

We are all animals but just in differing species. As a matter of fact the most preditorial of beasts or animals is the human, the shark, and the bear.
This is not to say kitties are not preditorial, but there are more peditorial beasts.

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I happen to think that beyond this he said, she said crap, she might quite possibly be a fun and intelligent woman. Yes a woman, one that values a true leader when he or she steps up. Rapture is using the natural order to establish his dominance theory here, that's a pet peave of Najas. She sees nature in it's purest forms everyday, EVERYDAY.

....naja has had many opporunities just to shut her mouth and book a flight or provide me with the appropriate information so that I will book a flight for her. naj still pontificates just here, surely, she can do so in person, and especially in what she sees everyday. . .

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No one other than Rapture himself is allowing this to continue.

Control is such a bad thing to wield or be able to wield ... even when you have stated this is all futile yet here you are.....

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He is arguing a moot point as I stated in prior posts. He is also standing with all his friends and comrads on this as you have noticed, now, I could have taken full advantage of this situation and called out the dogs and demonstrated that One man has the voice that the community allows. He has no voice where Goreans have final say.

Call the dogs out. I know them. I know all of them. I know all of their weaknesses and strengths. I know their history. I know what they have said and what they have done or not done. Do please call them... By all means.......

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That's is a proven fact. Go to any Gorean site, ask the folks there. Not a dig at him, just a fact. He actually stands here, in this forum speaking due to the very powers he chastises the most. The BDSMers and females that are trying to allow him fair voice so long as he follows the rules set forth that he agreed to abide by when he joined this place. It's not that he has finally got people to listen to his piece of Gorean logic, it's the society where women are offered some equality allow him the chance to speak. Now that's Irony wouldn't you say?

Please do. I expect nothing else. However, acceptance is not a requirement to be much of anything but accepted by whom ever you want to go out and want to please. Unfortunitly way back then nor now, am I here to please you, or anyone else but myself. I do not play it up for the crowd. I stand on my own, and I do not need others to wave this flag or that flag.  I can get on those sites but the debate is just like here and everywhere else-just the same stuff over and over again.

Though it is a logical fallacy to make such generalization to have others agree and therefore some "fact" is a fact. Would you like the website on that? The same has tons of logical fallacies that are used by many here. Along the above theory from you Bull, we wouldnt have started to sterilize surgical instruments or take baths for the same was considered by the communities as blasphey (sp).  At that matter we would not have anti-botics or be able to roam around in trucks, or cars.

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So some crazy ass purportedly mouthy ass free woman like Naja allows Rapture the voice he has. I assure you that if it weren't for the likes of her, you would have long since been following him somewhere else hoping to see the next days entertainment. The Goreans or the in crowd, as you seemed to refer to us, (which by the way seems to be the entire crowd after they have had the oportunity to discover his message) always seem to give him his walking papers. Don't you find it unusual that EVERYONE else would be wrong? Well apart from you and he.

naj hasnt "allowed" anything though she has yet to really say much except to blather about how great the female is. Ok.. SFO or OAK?
You infer EVERYONE agrees with you, this unto itself is a flaw in just common sense not to mention logic. Not everyone Bull will agree with you, not everyone will agree with me. However, at least in my experience they tended not be the mouthy little girls they are here, nor the mighty men they purport they are here, when actually up close and personal.

By the way, one of your "dogs" is in Chico, California (I think its Chico), be more than happy to have him over for tea. Then again, way back when when another person was pontificating about a foil and how great it was (if memory serves) I suggested we do real spar with his foil and my Pr-24 (tonfa stick). Well.. needless to say, that did not occur, nor will it ever. The tonfa and the various techiques while in use are designed to defeat such things as the sword, the baseball bat, the knife, and then immediately turn into an offensive weapon.

Call the dogs..

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Now. I'm not doing this to attack Rapture, I'm not saying a darn thing that everyone else doesn't know. including him. He makes some good points at times, I agree that women should be in the charge of good men.

Making threats to call out the dogs to help bolster your position is not an attack? This post of yours is not an attack?? My heart be still. This post is an attack, plain and simple.

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I agree that there are some outspoken females that need silenced by one method or another. But, how well are his tactics working out for him in this society.

So far so good.

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Remember we aren't on the pages of Gor. You can argue all you want that Gor is this or Gor is that, but in the end, Gor is on a page or in the heart. Men have to bring it to life, not one man, but MEN. If you spend your time tearing down the base fabric of the movement, your objective only moves further away from reality.

Isnt this the point of naj coming to San Francisco to spew as she spews here? To insult as she insults here? Yet, the same is disclaimed, ever so nicely by naj, and you.

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Has Naja over stepped her bounds? Only in the eyes of you and Rapture, does it have to do with the in crowd, well shucks, she isn't Gorean, so she isn't of my homestone.

The entire gorean community? No Bull, not everyone agrees with you, not everyone agrees with me, nor will everyone agree with naj. If they are gor or not gor. This is a generalization that has no support whatsoever.

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She isn't in my crowd. I like her talk, her logic and her style. She has become a bit arguementative with Rapture at times, but he inspired it. He brought out the angst.

Perhaps you then should not correct any other girl since that person is not of your homestone or what have you. However, you have, and many times here on collarme, in yahoo chat, and probably elsewhere. You contradict yourself.

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He then had to suffer the results. I not once assisted her. I asked a few questions of Rapture as they cropped up. But, she didn't say anything that she hasn't already explained to me in great detail before. As I said, I have had this conversation with her before, it didn't come down to threats and challanges though, we understood one another long before that was needed. She knows she couldn't whip a man like John in a fist fight, the fact is she wouldn't have to.

As i said before there are always consequences to one's actions. I careless what crowd I am posting to, speaking to, relating to, etc. yet by stance on things remain unchanged. Unlike many I have experienced on collarme, from some of those dogs of yours, and in the like kind. I know them and have known them longer than you. They know this, they also know I know as I have previously mentioned.

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We aren't on Gor, their is a police force insuring her consitutional rights and I'm betting that as bright as she is, she would always have a champion to be at her side even if the police were gone. I'm not fuckin' with a big cat or a cobra. However, I could demonstrate to her I am her best chance for survival in a lawless world, that my Gorean beliefs would give her the best hook to hang her hat, uhmm veils on. And that she can rely on me as a man and in turn choose to submit some or all her control to me.

.... (see below)

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Then I'll bet she would understand that if she stepped out of line, she might find a man's wrath most unpleasant.

Oh really? This contradicts naj's contentions of that fabled equality. This though this appears to support my contentions. Thanks Bull. :)

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As Rapture pointed out, yes a woman may infact meet with the collar, even in her own homestone if she can't meet the standards of the men within who's charge she stands. But then this is just one man's, my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

Actually, as I have previously stated no little or large male or female has pontificated as they do here online with all of their garbage... NOT ONE.
However, the day is still young, it MIGHT happen one day, but highly unlikely, but hey..then their are those dogs...

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Hopefully this little debate can end now and we can move forward. Naja I ask you to leave well enough alone as I do believe all have witnessed your point. To continue this would be an escalation of futility. 

...

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I'd ask Rapture the same, but he is his own man and he will decide his own fate.

Aint that the truth. :)

Welcome to Gor.

Rapture

P.S.
Trust me on one thing, I have received many threats, attempts to coerce me, and in the like kind, but damn its just so amusing when those people break camp and run because I stand up to them (and dont fear their crap). Yet, you surely know when you hit nerve when the threats and name calling start (and not from me).

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hard work meaning that you do not go off running your mouth just because you are not currently owned

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Thanks for indicating that tangy is a slave, unowned, yet a slave nonetheless.