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RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/8/2008 7:28:17 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's astounding to me that people are still rolling Kerry's name in the mud all these years later. Why do you think that is, Ken?

The GOP has based a great deal of its self image on being the party of patriots and warriors. If the Democrats ever put forth an actual patriot and warrior the GOP must destroy that candidate somehow in order to maintain their lies. Kerry is just the best known example. Before that the GOP did the exact same thing to Max Cleland.

This is fundamentally why the right wing feels it is necessary to attack the patriotism of every liberal. Which may very well be at the core of why things have gotten so acrimonious between the two sides. Until the right is once again willing to accept the concept of the loyal opposition things aren't going to change.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 21

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/8/2008 7:54:01 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
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quote:

Apparently never in a Rep. run Fla. Reps are the ones who chose the early vote this year... and stoped all the recounts the last time. Try again.

Florida was an Al Gore fuckup from start to finish. He's the one who wanted recounts only in four heavily Democratic districts, rather than push for a statewide recount. If he had pushed for the statewide recount from the get go, he likely would have carried the state and the election. The moment he got cutsey with the rules he guaranteed the lawyers would get involved, and Bush had better lawyers.

You can't steal what someone willingly throws away.

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Post #: 22

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/8/2008 8:07:48 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

Were you in Nam? If not, you are just talking out of your ass. You dishonor my two brothers, one of whom did 2-1/2 tours on the front lines with 400 guys under his command.

No, he doesn't. Kerry did that when he accused your brothers of war crimes.

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Post #: 23

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/8/2008 9:14:04 AM

luckydog1

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Nope Dom Ken a Unit is more than just his boat.

Swiftboating is when you make a charge that for some reason the accussed is afraid to release the proof on. Like Kerry who still has not released his full record, just the parts that make him look good. All he had to do was sign his d-180 (?) form, like Bush was pressured to do. But for some reason he felt the need to hide the record he was putting forth as the reason to vote for him. Maybe all the Swift boat allegations were total lies (doubt it though), there must have been something else in there he wanted to keep hidden, and he rationally decided to let the charges go un answered to hide it.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 24

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/8/2008 2:19:09 PM

Gwynvyd

Posts: 4949
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Apparently never in a Rep. run Fla. Reps are the ones who chose the early vote this year... and stoped all the recounts the last time. Try again.

Florida was an Al Gore fuckup from start to finish. He's the one who wanted recounts only in four heavily Democratic districts, rather than push for a statewide recount. If he had pushed for the statewide recount from the get go, he likely would have carried the state and the election. The moment he got cutsey with the rules he guaranteed the lawyers would get involved, and Bush had better lawyers.

You can't steal what someone willingly throws away.

Yes Gore wanted only the Heavily democrat counties to be recounted.. but it would not have mattered. With those counties using the butterfly and caterplliar ballots it confused the hell out of the blue hairs and they were unvalid since they over voted in most cases. ( can you hazard a guess as to who chose the style of ballots Hmm?)

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html

According to the study, 5,277 voters made a clean punch for Gore and a clean punch for Reform Party nominee Pat Buchanan, candidates whose political philosophies are poles apart. An additional 1,650 voters made clean punches for Bush and Buchanan. If many of the Buchanan votes were in error brought on by a badly designed ballot, a CNN analysis found that Gore could have netted thousands of additional votes as compared with Bush.

Gore settled because he knew it was hopeless. Before the voting even began it was over. Hell anyone remember the Diebold machine biz? http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marty-kaplan/how-to-hack-a-diebold-vot_b_26301.html

Besides if Gore had gotten elected then Hillary wouldnt be up to bat.

Gwyn

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(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 25

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/8/2008 4:02:16 PM

luckydog1

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Joined: 1/16/2006
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Gwen the officials of Palm Beach county choose they style of ballot to use. It is a Democratic run county. Florida did not have a statewide ballot system. Each county ran its own process. In the case of the Butterfly Ballot it was chosen by the Democratic Party of Palm Beach County. Did you think the Republicans choose it?

(in reply to Gwynvyd)

Post #: 26

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/8/2008 8:35:50 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Nope Dom Ken a Unit is more than just his boat.

Bullshit.

In the navy we have shore commands and we have ships and boats. By your logic I'm qualified to discuss the actions of the captain of the Nimitz from when I served on the Long Beach since we were in the same CVBG. Which is ludicrous. I may have been within a few hundred yards of the Nimitz for weeks at a time but I had my duties and they did not directly concern the Nimitz or her captain.

Once again no one in Kerry's command has ever made a negative claim about Kerry. That is a fact.

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 27

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/8/2008 8:47:39 PM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

Are there any disillusioned individuals who think US has parties? I see only ruling permanent political elite and lobbyists enriching each other at the expense of "useful idiots".

It does not get much more accurate than that.
thompson

(in reply to awmslave)

Post #: 28

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/8/2008 8:52:40 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
No, he doesn't. Kerry did that when he accused your brothers of war crimes.

Are you suggesting that somehow it is dishonorable to tell the truth?
Are you suggesting that the U.S. military did not commit war crimes in Vietnam?
thompson

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 29

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/8/2008 9:35:24 PM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
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Dom ken it is not a fact. Kerry was an officer on a ship off the coast before he became a Swift boat captain. He had dozens of men under his command, and they came forward in droves to call bullshit on him, and sign the Swift boats petition. I know you don't like it, but its a fact.

Its cool the way you can be caught wrong, and you try to change the subject. His unit as a swifty was not just his boat. Boats would be sent out in teams. So you comparison to the Nimitz is simply ridiculous. But at least you have dropped the Lie that Kerry released all of his records. So we are making some progress here.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 30

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/8/2008 11:18:44 PM

subfever

Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

Are there any disillusioned individuals who think US has parties? I see only ruling permanent political elite and lobbyists enriching each other at the expense of "useful idiots".

It does not get much more accurate than that.
thompson

Ditto

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 31

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/8/2008 11:49:12 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
No, he doesn't. Kerry did that when he accused your brothers of war crimes.

Are you suggesting that somehow it is dishonorable to tell the truth?
Are you suggesting that the U.S. military did not commit war crimes in Vietnam?
thompson

No, no war crimes in the Nam. <cough "My Lai" cough>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:War_crimes_in_Vietnam

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 32

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/9/2008 5:25:18 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Dom ken it is not a fact. Kerry was an officer on a ship off the coast before he became a Swift boat captain. He had dozens of men under his command, and they came forward in droves to call bullshit on him, and sign the Swift boats petition. I know you don't like it, but its a fact.

Its cool the way you can be caught wrong, and you try to change the subject. His unit as a swifty was not just his boat. Boats would be sent out in teams. So you comparison to the Nimitz is simply ridiculous. But at least you have dropped the Lie that Kerry released all of his records. So we are making some progress here.

I checked into the claims that guys from his ship made accusations. I can't seem to find those names and service details. If you have them provide them.

Boats sent out in teams? You mean just like the Nimitz, the Long Beach and a dozen or so other ships and boats being sent out as a CVBG? Looks like a valid comparison.

Where have I ever said Kerry released all of his records? Is this going to be another of your lies I get to point out and then you fail to acknowledge being caught in it?

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 33

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/9/2008 10:44:00 AM

luckydog1

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Joined: 1/16/2006
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If I was mistaken Domken I would admit it, I have done so often, as opposed to you. (Global cooling in the 70s?). Its great we have a search function on CM. And you did say, (in response to me saying "All Kerry had to do was open his records and disprove thier claims.")

"What part of his records are you talking about? The only thing a little vague has been his discharge date and the date of his honorable discharge. This has nothing to do with the lies told about him by SBVT. The records of his service in Vietnam are public as are all the documentation surrounding his decorations. "     http://www.collarchat.com/m_1575006/mpage_5/tm.htm#

Except they aren't...And of course the discharge circumstances was a huge part of what the Swifties alledged. Dishonorable, and then redeemed by Carter.  There is nothing vauge about it, he refused to release the documentation. I guess thinking about it it could just be a nonsense rsponse by you instead of a lie.

But I will say it again. All Kerry had to do to shut up the swifties and expose them as liars, was release his records. For some reason he chose not to, unless of course there was something else in the records he would rather take the hit on than expose.

I think comparing a Carrier battle group to a unit of Swift boats is sort of nonsensical. I would consider that people who served on the bridge and communicated with the commander on a regular basis to have grounds to comment. I guess that the readers can decide for themselves.   When Swift Boats worked as teams, it was like commenting on the guy next to you.

It is quite obvious that you never read the allegations by the Swift Boat Veterans for truth. So if you refuse to look at the list of people who signed the document (close to one hundred that served on the ship where he was an officer), you can pretend there is no evidence. I do see how it works.

The vast majority of Vets who served with Kerry, who bothered to take a stand, were heavily against him. Thats just a fact.

"Once again no one in Kerry's command has ever made a negative claim about Kerry. That is a fact. "

No, it is a deliberate falsehood.

I know its not you, but we are delaing with folks who thing turning the bow into enemy fire (which lowers the profile making you a smaller target, while limiting the ability to fire back) is heroic.

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 4/9/2008 10:48:59 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 34

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/9/2008 1:54:33 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
No, he doesn't. Kerry did that when he accused your brothers of war crimes.

Are you suggesting that somehow it is dishonorable to tell the truth?
Are you suggesting that the U.S. military did not commit war crimes in Vietnam?
thompson

No, no war crimes in the Nam. <cough "My Lai" cough>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:War_crimes_in_Vietnam

There were atrocities committed in Vietnam. However, is it your position to embrace Kerry's allegation that war crimes were "not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."?

Kerry's own words given in sworn testimony before Congress was that the U.S. military--which would include you and your brothers--engaged in atrocities on a daily basis. Those are his words, and his accusation. They are not my words, not my accusation, nor do I believe that to be the accusation of history. Atrocities did occur, but the vast majority of soldiers in Vietnam served honorably.

I stand by my original statement that Kerry dishonored your brothers in his testimony before Congress.

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Post #: 35

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/9/2008 3:29:51 PM

MistressNew

Posts: 112
Joined: 5/5/2007
Status: offline

I can't believe it's even still an issue. A little simple digging (it took me 3 minutes) and the truth was out:

http://www.factcheck.org/republican-funded_group_attacks_kerrys_war_record.html

I think we can all agree factcheck is pretty non-biased.

As for the original post, I despise all politicians who talk about family values and then destroy our values, all politicians who talk about leaving no child behind and then leave all but the richest behind, and politicians who are more indebted to their lobbyists than to their own conscience. Lately, the party that has been much more hypocritical has been the republicans. As such, I'll be voting democrat down the line. But kick back to the late 80's or early 90's and the opposite would be true.

What it comes down to is that old John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton quote: "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." The reason that republicans have been such hypocrites lately? Because they could be.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 36

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/9/2008 3:36:57 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Thanks for the link. I fear, however, that those with their index fingers firmly planted in their ears won't give a flying duck's fuck about the facts.

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Post #: 37

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/9/2008 6:55:07 PM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

Which facts, you mean the conclusion of the Annenberg Fact Check Group,

"At this point, 35 years later and half a world away, we see no way to resolve which of these versions of reality is closer to the truth."

And the Anneneberg article makes clear that the Republican Party did not pay for the ads.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 38

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/9/2008 7:52:30 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

If I was mistaken Domken I would admit it, I have done so often, as opposed to you. (Global cooling in the 70s?). Its great we have a search function on CM. And you did say, (in response to me saying "All Kerry had to do was open his records and disprove thier claims.")

"What part of his records are you talking about? The only thing a little vague has been his discharge date and the date of his honorable discharge. This has nothing to do with the lies told about him by SBVT. The records of his service in Vietnam are public as are all the documentation surrounding his decorations. " http://www.collarchat.com/m_1575006/mpage_5/tm.htm#

And so you out your own lie. I clearly stated his entire military record wasn't public.

quote:

I think comparing a Carrier battle group to a unit of Swift boats is sort of nonsensical.

How can anyone be sure what you think? You lie far too often.

quote:

It is quite obvious that you never read the allegations by the Swift Boat Veterans for truth. So if you refuse to look at the list of people who signed the document (close to one hundred that served on the ship where he was an officer), you can pretend there is no evidence. I do see how it works.

Read them and investigated them. I found nothing substantial then or now. Which is also true of every unbiased researcher who has looked into their claims see the factcheck.org article for another example.

quote:

The vast majority of Vets who served with Kerry, who bothered to take a stand, were heavily against him. Thats just a fact.

You have yet to provide any documentation that anyone who walked the same deck as he did every made a negative claim against him. Those are the vets that served with him. I'm pretty sure your claim that guys on the Gridley making claims is a lie since I still can't find a single such name and documented service record.

quote:

"Once again no one in Kerry's command has ever made a negative claim about Kerry. That is a fact. "

No, it is a deliberate falsehood.

No. It is the absolute unchallenged truth.

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 39

RE: The party of <cough> Values - 4/9/2008 8:13:36 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

Sorry to be so tough on you... but people in glass houses and all that.

Uh, Gwyn? I hope you didn't wear yourself out there. I'll refer you back to my reply to Hippie.

The Democrats constantly decry the actions of Republicans, sometimes as accurately as you have above. They talk of great 'rights' and 'wrongs.' They claim the high ground. And the moment those self-righteously proclaimed values come into conflict with their desire for power and their hatred, we see the hierarchy for what it is.

yeh its a great show with great ratings aint it? LMAO

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Post #: 40

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