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RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 6:53:12 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The point is simple can't believ you missed it. The record shows that some places and tims it seems that rioting is considered OK within certain groups.
The example of the riots by angry Muslims in France earier this year set the standard (for the short term) of rioting being acceptable responce to political anger.

The question is why are some folks willing to adopt the possition that the riots are understandable when it's their Ox being gored?

Perhapse you intended sarcasim in your " Yep... it's good news. The more cars burn, the more the French governement's likely to reconsider its entire approach to policy making."  and I missed it? If not the possition certainly attempts to excuse the destruction of property as an acceptable form of political protest when the opposition wins an election.

Destroying another person's property is not an acceptable protest form and should not be defended with any weak argument,

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 7:55:13 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		The problem in France for the French elite is that many French still remember why they had a revolution and why they have the Republic which is for all French and not just for the get rich quick bourgeois. Perhaps they should stop teaching about the revolution and the roll of the Republic in schools. I doubt it is also missed on many on the French left that Le système d'Anglo-Saxon as advocated by Sarkozy makes the poor poorer and the rich richer and as Germany is in the process of proving, is not necessary to get the country moving again.

Like Blair, Sarkozy benefited from the state he is trying to dismantle which is also a red wrag to a bull for young people from workingclass backgrounds who see their futures being dismantled before they have even begun. Sarkozy and the right might say that their perceptions are misconceived but when they look towards countries with Le système d'Anglo-Saxon, they see those countries have more poverty and people there work longer hours and die younger. They can also know hypocrisy when they see it, because Sarkozy is expecting the EU to protect French industry.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 8:00:07 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		pardom me while i set your car on fire.  [bush won]

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 8:04:13 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

pardom me while i set your car on fire.  [bush won]


Perhaps the French should stop teaching their youngsters philosophy in school, especially Sartre and Foucault and start teaching them media studies. They might then quietly accept their lot and not complain.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 8:04:28 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		*Groan*... there we go with the Muslim scapegoat again. It's nothing to do with Islam, it's to do with the ghettoisation of an entire portion of the population. France has been doing it for close to sixty years now.

I'm getting sick and tired of hearing Muslims demonised because of their faith.



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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 8:05:49 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

*Groan*... there we go with the Muslim scapegoat again. It's nothing to do with Islam, it's to do with the ghettoisation of an entire portion of the population. France has been doing it for close to sixty years now.

I'm getting sick and tired of hearing Muslims demonised because of their faith.




So true and it will only get worse under Sarkozy if he is as good as his word.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 8:12:27 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		If Sarkozy introduces Thatcherism to France, then heaven help the French, and heaven help Sarkozy.

I wonder if anyone has the number of that well spoken young man known as "The Jackal"?

E

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RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 8:25:27 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Horsa Hocky you're attributing things not in evidence here.
I am not scapegoating anyone.
I cited the example as any number of examples that could be used (pahunk mentioned several other riots and destruction of other folks property events) I cited it based on two things 1. Same geographic area, 2. Within less than a year in time both sociological data that would apply to the idea of setting a social standard of wha is acceptable.
Take the strawman elsewhere. not even a good redirect away from your chearleading about destruction of private property on one hand and saying it's not OK on the other.

This is good.......  No it's not OK

Two diametricly opposing possitions taken within the same post.

So which is it at least meatcleaver has set a possition that is consistent (rioting is a legitimate response to XYZ) I can disagree with the possition, you on the other hand decry it as not OK to destroy someone elses property and yet praise the rioters as maybe changing the political course of France.

Is destruction of someone elses property an acceptable form of expressing dissatisfaction or not?

My point was that some parts of french society have found it to be just that perfectly acceptable. Young angry Muslims earlier this year as evidenced by over a week and some groups of assumably the fringe left as evidenced by the destruction of private property post election loss. The point being that this type of response does feed on itself (rioting by one group often desensitizes other groups and gives them rationalization that it is OK.
Happens to be french at this moment could happen in any number of places.






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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 8:38:19 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		meatcleaver, I have no problem with them teaching philosophy I have a problem with the idea that destuction of someone elses property is OK. How well targeted do you think out of control rioters are when they select a window. (History tells me they are not going to be very discriminatory about it, The closest car that looks nice reguardless of if it is a shop owner who is barely getting by or a Investment banker who stepped on people to get to the top. The destruction in riots tends to be mostly random and rationalized away too easilyby those doing the damage as Those rich people's stuff without reguard for any actual evidence that the car belongs to anyone who ever did anyone any real harm.

It's there, i'm mad, it burns.

Is that the philosophy you advocate them learning? (of course not)
They just had an election the legitimate manner to change the course of government and odds are turn out could have turned the course much more effectively and the rioters likely didn't even vote in it.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 8:41:20 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

So which is it at least meatcleaver has set a possition that is consistent (rioting is a legitimate response to XYZ) I can disagree with the possition, you on the other hand decry it as not OK to destroy someone elses property and yet praise the rioters as maybe changing the political course of France.



I never said rioting was legitimate but I can understand it. If I knew what Thatcher was about to do to Britain, I would have rioted too before she had a chance to do what she did. The legacy of Thatcher's reforms (in want of a better word) is an intractable underclass, economic wastelands that still haven't recovered, lower wagers, lower quality jobs, lower quality education and more poverty while the rich got richer. Blair might be able to say that the British economy is now a success but it is a success for some but worse for many others. Having lived in continental Europe for half my life, the European social model means a better life for most people and Germany is proving it can work even if some compromises have to be made.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 8:53:39 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


I never said rioting was legitimate but I can understand it. If I knew what Thatcher was about to do to Britain, I would have rioted too before she had a chance to do what she did. The legacy of Thatcher's reforms (in want of a better word) is an intractable underclass, economic wastelands that still haven't recovered, lower wagers, lower quality jobs, lower quality education and more poverty while the rich got richer. Blair might be able to say that the British economy is now a success but it is a success for some but worse for many others. Having lived in continental Europe for half my life, the European social model means a better life for most people and Germany is proving it can work even if some compromises have to be made.


Agreed 100%.

Violence and vandalism are not acceptable - but then neither was/is the violence and vandalism perpetrated on our country and its people since 1979.

I wasnt old enough to vote back then, but regardless, in that election and in none since have I seen any party manifesto whereby a mandate was obtained for the wrecking of British society in the thorough way which has obtained. This makes governmental violence and vandalism as criminally unacceptable as any public riot, lacking said mandate - or it makes rioting as acceptable as the actions of government in that regard.

E

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 9:22:14 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		My premise being that in any place where the potential for replacing the government through a legitimate election exists and comes around in fairly short order, what gripe can they have that warrants a riot? The process for grievances is in place at the ballot box. Don't like the result of the election get out more voters make a better case for our possition next election. Especially in places like Europe where so many of the elections are able to be advanced in time based on a no confidence vote in the PM. (Not sure that France has such a provission)

Protest in the streets all day every day in a peacefull manner and I'm OK with that
Damage someone elses property to "make a point" and you lose me.
I'm OK with the illegal immigrant marching asking for XYZ (I may disagree with their possition, but I'm ok with them proesting and making their points I even find some common ground grievances) But let them turn to destruction of property like people protesting The World Bank in Seatle several years ago, and the common ground is going to be ignored by me and many others.







(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 9:57:24 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Except that Sarko has a tiny little dick. He doesn't have the balls to be the fascist leader Thatcher was: he will soon yield under the pressures that will be exerted upon him a) by the people; b) by his own party; c) by the powerful National Assembly which might sway to the left in June. He won't carry out his threats to 'liberalise' the French system. It isn't in his own interest, and Sarko is for... well, for Sarko :-) .

Time will tell, but there's nothing wrong with a little revolution once in a while. A little crack of the whip, to get the blood flowing.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 9:59:57 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		The rioters aren't 'young angry Muslims'. They're 'pissed off unemployed French people'. They were born there; they are the subjects of a terribly unjust, racist and parochial society. Today it's the Muslims, yesterday it was the Jews: when are people going to grow up and quit englobing an entire faith/ethnic group because it suits their agenda?

Have you heard of Alfred Dreyfus?

Another thing: personal property comes second, after human rights and fair policy. No, private property is NOT sacred. Human life is.

That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it blah blah blah. .

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 5/9/2007 10:04:39 AM >

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RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 9:59:58 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

C'est vrai, l'habit ne fait pas le moine.

Hmmm, if somebody's wearing KKK garb though, I'd be enclined to think they were on the whacko side of right wing.


kittinsol, what does the KKK have to do with the right wing?
Apples and oranges.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 10:05:34 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Oh zut. I'm not going to give you history lessons for free, popeye :-) 

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 10:06:00 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

in that election and in none since have I seen any party manifesto whereby a mandate was obtained for the wrecking of British society in the thorough way which has obtained.

In an effort gain clarity, not accuse, I have a question regarding this statement.

A "mandate" in this case is being defined as a person/party winning a democratic election and, as a result, implementing the change that gained them the democratic plurality generating the victory. As a member of the society, obviously disagreeing with the implemented change, it is not only acceptable but justified to riot?

As a side note - this is 2007 not 1979. This is France not England. This is Mr. Sarkozy not Ms. Thatcher. Is the comparison, prior to any change in policy,  necessary to rationalize the position to "understand" the riots?

Do the riots indicate an acceptance by the rioters that they are a fringe minority who can not ever expect to implement their political agenda in a democratic society? If not, what is their goal?

quote:

This makes governmental violence and vandalism as criminally unacceptable as any public riot, lacking said mandate - or it makes rioting as acceptable as the actions of government in that regard.
"Governmental violence and vandalism"; can you detail this action by the government? Is it vandalism and violence to defend property against rioters and arrest them or do you have an example of something else?

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 10:20:58 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Oh zut. I'm not going to give you history lessons for free, popeye :-) 


Kittinsol, I always thought that the "Right Wing" was "pro-government", "pro- business", "pro America", "pro-Law and Order", "pro-Patriotism."

The KKK isn't *any* of those things!

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 10:30:30 AM   
selfbnd411


Posts: 598
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Kittinsol, I always thought that the "Right Wing" was "pro-government", "pro- business", "pro America", "pro-Law and Order", "pro-Patriotism."

The KKK isn't *any* of those things!


Lol!  I'm gonna pin this on my wall of silliness

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: "Cars burnt, police hurt in French election vi... - 5/9/2007 10:33:44 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		popeye, darling... *big sigh*

The 'right' has a political agenda. It isn't all to do with economics. You are confusing liberalism and right-wing.

Now, go back to the history books. I highly recommend you start with Hannah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarism.
 
Then we can take it from here.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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