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"College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just in U... - 5/11/2007 12:34:40 AM   
Vendaval


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"College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just in U.S."

POSTED: 9:32 p.m. EDT, May 10, 2007

" WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- A college cost crunch is bearing down on governments worldwide -- not just in America -- and some innovative approaches to student loans are being taken overseas, although you wouldn't know it on Capitol Hill.

As another round of debate gets going in Congress on how to help debt-burdened university students, aides said lawmakers were largely ignoring how other countries do it.

One approach being taken in Australia and New Zealand, for instance, is the wider use of "income-contingent" loans that base post-graduation repayments on a borrower's income. Most U.S. student loans still base repayments on the loan size.

Britain makes income-contingent loans as well, with students repaying them through the tax system to The Student Loan Co. Ltd., a government organization.

In Canada, student loans have been centralized under the government, which hires a services provider, largely removing banks from the picture, said Leesha Lin, operational policy and research director at the Canada Student Loans Program.

"The service was not very good with the banks. A lot of students complained," Lin said in an interview.

Norway monitors student performance and rewards diligence by converting portions of loans into grants that need not be repaid upon satisfactory completion of a course of study.

"Very useful and important things are happening in other countries," said Robert Shireman, executive director of the Project on Student Debt, a group that aims to improve America's labyrinthine and politically sensitive student loan system.
But getting U.S. lawmakers to look abroad for ideas is hard. "It's fascinating how insular Americans are. Discussions of what happens in other countries fall flat," Shireman said.

In the private sector, of course, that is not the case. Just ask Sallie Mae, the largest U.S. student loan group and a major target of congressional reformers' zeal.
The company last week announced its first foreign venture -- a loan program targeting British post-graduate students.

"We're watching these markets very carefully," said Lynn Ross, vice president of international lending for Sallie Mae.

As in America, higher education costs are hammering other developed nations, forcing a reassessment of who pays and how.

In much of Europe, a "free" university education -- meaning one paid for by taxpayers and not students or their families -- was seen for decades as a basic right. No longer.

Britain in the late 1990s became the first European country to impose more than a nominal university tuition fee. Today, UK tuition is capped at about $6,000 a year for full-time students who started school last autumn. That is still cheap by U.S. standards, but costly compared to most systems.

Following the UK example, tuition is being imposed for the first time in other countries, including in Germany this year.

German banks -- including Dresdner Bank and Deutsche Bank -- have begun offering student loans meant to supplement loans from government-owned banks.
"Student loans are becoming more and more important in Germany," said Markus Langer, a project manager at German university consultancy CHE Consult.

Even in China and former Communist countries where a free college education was once politically sacred, students now pay fees, and many take out loans to make ends meet.
U.S. tops in college costs
With the world's most expensive higher education system, America asks students to pay an average of $5,800 a year in tuition to attend a four-year public university; or an average of $22,200 a year for a private four-year school, according to the College Board, an educational testing and services group.

America's decentralized and competitive higher education system is a global leader, with many of the world's best and brightest students beating a path to U.S. universities.

But for middle-class U.S. voters, college costs are a major anxiety, especially this time of year with college admission letters arriving and financial aid application deadlines near.

U.S. students must navigate a bewildering array of financial aid programs. Besides scholarships and grants that don't have to be repaid, students can borrow directly from the government; from banks through federally guaranteed private loans; or, increasingly, from banks with no federal guarantee.

Income-contingent repayment is available to some U.S. students with federal government loans, but Shireman's group has said the program is too limited and too complex.

Concern is growing about student debt. Typical undergraduates leave school today owing about $20,000 -- a burden that can limit a young person's choices in life.
Especially worrying to some is students' increasing reliance on bank debt, which now accounts for 20 percent of student loans, up from 7 percent just 10 years ago.
Congressional Democrats have introduced legislation that would cut college loan interest rates, raise grant funding, and steer more students toward direct government loans, which they argue save money for students and taxpayers.

The banks and Sallie Mae dispute this, arguing that their loans are cost-efficient and bring student and schools an array of helpful financial services.

The two sides have been fighting over the issue for so many years now that some of the latest thinking in student loans has already moved on, particularly overseas.

"The debate does suffer in that way," Shireman said. "

http://www.cnn.com/2007/EDUCATION/05/10/student.loans.world.reut/index.html

(format edit)

< Message edited by Vendaval -- 5/11/2007 12:35:34 AM >


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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 1:27:30 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Too many students in too many useless subjects IMO.
Cheaper to get down the library and "have a read"

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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 2:05:09 AM   
Vendaval


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And subjects that require laboratories, field work and experiments?
Say chemistry, biology, agriculture, architecture and engineering?






(edited to add a comma)

< Message edited by Vendaval -- 5/11/2007 2:06:02 AM >


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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 3:02:45 AM   
meatcleaver


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One of the main problems in western societies is the over emphasis on college educations. There are so many people with bachelors and Masters degrees now they are devalued when it comes to getting a job with a good salary. Call centres are full of people with reasonable degrees because their just isn't enough jobs for them in the field they have studied. The ironic thing about all this emphasis on degrees, in many western countries now, people with craft skills such as plumbers, joiners, mechanics and the like, command higher salaries than many graduates.

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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 3:06:13 AM   
LadyEllen


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Seeks has a point V, at least as it relates to the UK. The numbers going to university here have been growing enormously in recent years, but we have fewer students for science courses and fewer for language courses, and the impression is that "media studies" (whatever that might be) and other similarly oversubscribed degrees which will rarely lead to employment (philosophy, English literature, archaeology etc) are the ones being chosen by the vast majority, being seen as easier and more fashionable. Yes, we need people with such qualification, but we dont need the numbers involved here. I'm sure I also heard that some institutions are subsidising certain undersubscribed and vital courses, to attract students.

Incidentally, as I understand it, one can get a free university education in Scotland (maybe Wales too) under their devolved arrangements, though one has to be resident for at least six months before qualifying. Even without the residency, its much cheaper in those two countries than in England.

The problem with all these loans though, is that they provide a disincentive to working in the UK once qualified. One pays back according to what one earns by way of deduction from wages at source. Best course of action then, would be to emigrate on graduation - any English speaking country (since few study languages here) would do, and Australia is crying out for people right now, so that would be my choice if I were in that position.

Meanwhile, should one play by the rules, then given the debt one is burdened with on graduation and the price of housing here, one will still be living with parents at 40 years of age, being unable to go anywhere else. This then means a declining birth rate being accelerated and even more immigration being required to make up the numbers - not a problem, but it is a problem when immigrants will have to be given places to live, whilst those born here are still living with their parents!

E

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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 3:21:37 AM   
Aileen68


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A relative has their son going to a private college two towns over.
He's majoring in education. 
They pay $32,000 a year with room and board.  I find that to be outrageous.
What is it going to cost when my six and four year old are college bound?
I shudder to think that what is being saved for that won't even make a dent.

< Message edited by Aileen68 -- 5/11/2007 3:22:06 AM >

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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 3:37:24 AM   
Vendaval


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Thank you for the information on the UK situation, Lady Ellen.
 
Another factor in the US is that a high school diploma by itself
will get you a food service, retail sales or maid/janitor position
at best, as a general rule. Community colleges and trade schools
are good for the 2 year degrees in certificates.  Here in California
the community colleges provide the fire and police academies,
dental assistant and medical assistants, psychiatric technicians,
beginning nursing, welding, mechanical, clerical, etc.
 
The rise in computer literacy and the omnipresence of technological
tools in the work place is one of the major factors in needing a
degree, certificate, etc. of one type or the other here.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 3:41:13 AM   
Vendaval


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Aileen, private institutions are usually much more expensive and exclusive than the state univeristies. 
Can you feasilbly start an educational savings fund of some sort with your bank for your 2 unmentionables now? 
Even a small amount of money to off-set tuition and books is better than nothing when the time comes.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 4:59:21 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Responding to my comment that many students pursue "useless" subjects
quote:

Vendaval said
And subjects that require laboratories, field work and experiments?
Say chemistry, biology, agriculture, architecture and engineering?

Every subject mentioned is actually very useful and paradoxically a subject like chemistry, which is demanding and rigorous, or used to be, cant recruit enough students.
Now subjects like media studies, AKA going to College to watch the television and read the newspapers are grossly over subscribed.
I wonder why?

adding: just noticed I have repeated what ladyE said. So I think what we are saying must be true. lol

Questions about the US.
I believe state Universities exist where tuition is free or at least not too expensive. Is that true ? Do they select on academic results so that an average dumbo like me would not "get in". If the state universities exist are their graduates considered say 2nd class ?
Should have read all the posts before responding to post 3. Never mind eh ?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 5/11/2007 5:10:39 AM >

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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 5:06:58 AM   
KatyLied


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Some states have TAP (Tuition Account Programs).
This allows you to "buy" tuition for the future at today's prices.
There are rules and limitations (of course), as far as what universities you can use.


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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 5:14:10 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Responding to my comment that many students pursue "useless" subjects
quote:

Vendaval said
And subjects that require laboratories, field work and experiments?
Say chemistry, biology, agriculture, architecture and engineering?

Every subject mentioned is actually very useful and paradoxically a subject like chemistry, which is demanding and rigorous, or used to be, cant recruit enough students.
Now subjects like media studies, AKA going to College to watch the television and read the newspapers are grossly over subscribed.
I wonder why?



Most science jobs in the UK have lousy pay compared to the work one has to put in for the qualifications, if you can get into the media you will earn far more money. When I lived in Germany I knew many Brits with science, enginnering and engineering design type graduates that left Briatin because you could command far more money in Germany. My guess that is because Thatcher decided to make Britain a low skill, low tax, service economy while Germany still believes in a high skilled, high pay, high tax economy. I can't believe that there are still so many people in Britain that still think Thatcher did a good job.

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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 5:20:31 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I can't believe that there are still so many people in Britain that still think Thatcher did a good job.


Me neither, and I come across them all the time.

Mind you, one of her staunch advocates is coming to a party with me on Monday and being a masochist is going to inadvertently perhaps, pay for his views LOL!

Must keep control.......must keep control.......must...... sod it, he's gonna get it!

E

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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 5:21:32 AM   
seeksfemslave


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What you say is true MC, that engineering in particualr is low payed but it always has been. MrsT didnt change things in that respect. Ironically she was a chemistry graduate. !

Maybe low pay for technical types is one reason for the UK's decline in the world wide economic competition. Earn for more as a Diversity manager working for  local or nation govnt.

What a larf that is !!!

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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 5:48:35 AM   
MsSonnetMarwood


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As someone in the middle of the "education crunch", there are a lot of ways around it if you can be flexible.

I moved home with my folks to dramatically reduce my living costs.  Not an ideal living situation, but workable.  I am just finishing up my first two years at community college, all full time, which I managed to pay for out of pocket by working 20-25 hours a week while in school and working two jobs over the summer - and I still have a solid bank account.  While at community college, I studied hard and distinguished myself by getting actively involved in various student life organizations, which put me in a position to win a bunch of awards which I am working to turn into scholarship money.  

Note:  if you want to "get attention", you need more than good grades.   You need to be ACTIVE in the school.   Student government is one way to go, plus take advantage of any leadership-oriented groups they offer.  Join the honors society if you can and take a leadership role there. 

Next year, I'll most likely go to one of two state universities - I haven't decided 100% yet since I'm still getting some scholarship offers in.  I expect that I will be able to pay to finish school mostly out of pocket, with minimal loans if any.  I plan on attending full time so that I can finish college as quickly as possible.

Am I going to big name private universities?  Nope, not unless they offer me a full ride.  Do I think that having "that name" on your degree vs. a respected state college helps all that much?  Probably not as much as they'd like you to think.   I don't think that going into debt $50,000+ will help me, and I don't think I'll make that much more the first couple years out of college to compensate for those kinds of loans.

There are definately ways of getting that education without coming out of college in debt up to your eyeballs, but you have to make smart choices and you have to work hard to make that happen.

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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 6:15:02 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Another factor in the US is that a high school diploma by itself
will get you a food service, retail sales or maid/janitor position
at best, as a general rule. Community colleges and trade schools
are good for the 2 year degrees in certificates.  Here in California
the community colleges provide the fire and police academies,
dental assistant and medical assistants, psychiatric technicians,
beginning nursing, welding, mechanical, clerical, etc.
 
The rise in computer literacy and the omnipresence of technological
tools in the work place is one of the major factors in needing a
degree, certificate, etc. of one type or the other here.


Its the same here V - it seems that one needs a university degree for even the clerical jobs these days, which is crazy.

When I came out of school (1984) I had 8 O Levels - one of only 5% of students in the year who achieved that. I then went on to achieve A Levels too, and then went to work, only to find that I didnt earn anything more than the 95% who left school at 16 with less than I. I should have maybe gone to university and got my degree, but with an unemployed father at the time and five younger siblings and a grant that didnt even cover accomodation costs (and I got the maximum grant), it wasnt possible. Given I was a student now and wanted a loan or whatever they call it to pay my way, I'd still have to turn it down.

Fast Forward twenty odd years and I'm now running a business - shock horror, I dont have a degree! I recruit people from time to time, for junior positions and what do I get as CVs? Degree qualified people - more educated than I, who cant get anywhere in life, because so many degree qualified people are in the market. Its all very well to have all these people getting degrees in this that and the other, but the value of a degree has now been diminished to such a level that it equates to my 8 O Levels of 1984.

E

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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 6:42:00 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

What you say is true MC, that engineering in particualr is low payed but it always has been. MrsT didnt change things in that respect. Ironically she was a chemistry graduate. !

Maybe low pay for technical types is one reason for the UK's decline in the world wide economic competition. Earn for more as a Diversity manager working for  local or nation govnt.

What a larf that is !!!



We do need Diversity Managers, Seeks. The problem is that we need a whole lot of other stuff too which doesnt seem to get so much attention and resource.

One of Thatcher's crimes in my opinion, was in the conversion of our economy from one which made things and exported them - bringing reasonable wealth to many, into an economy reliant on the shuffling of papers in the financial markets - bringing enormous wealth to a relative few, and leaving the rest to work in call centres at minimum wage.

In the transport industry, we see first hand how manufacturing has declined. When I started in the industry (1988), we could command £1500-00 for a full load by road from UK to Milan. Today, the market price is half that, against a backdrop of rising fuel prices, insurance costs and so on. In fact we lose around £400-00 on every export load we take to Italy - which is only made up by the fact that prices back from Italy are more than double compared to ex UK.

Why this decline in pricing has happened is twofold. Most importantly, there is less manufacturing, fewer goods to export and hence much greater competition for export loads from the UK. Secondly, our government has for decades provided foreign trucking companies with an enormous cost advantage over UK operators by way of higher fuel prices, road tax licences and so on; foreign operators now flood the UK with vehicles and the result is that there are now only a handful of UK operators still able to work on international routes with their own vehicles; most of us are forced to contract foreign vehicles.

That the same thing has not happened in regard to manufacturing in other EU countries is shown by the enormous demand for vehicles to bring loads to the UK which exists. The ratio of vehicles to loadings from the UK to any country apart from Ireland is approximately 2:1. The same ratio to the UK from any country apart from Ireland is 1:2.

We are told that we cannot compete any more in manufacturing and that our future lies in shuffling papers and in innovation. How other EU countries manage to manufacture and compete is then a mystery. How we are to innovate anything when we have few science graduates and few engineering graduates is another mystery. And how we are to make anything of our innovations when our paper shufflers are notorious for not backing British ideas is another mystery. And how we are to hold onto our innovations when they have to be manufactured in countries notorious for thieving them at the first opportunity is another mystery.

Still, it must be me who is wrong.

E

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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 7:51:35 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

LadyE
We do need Diversity Managers, Seeks

No we dont LadyE. These and other locally and nationally employed bureauscrats (sic) bean counters and other lumps of sludge clogging things up and reducing any hope of economic success are the reason why taxes are so high

quote:

LadyE
One of Thatcher's crimes in my opinion, was in the conversion of our economy from one which made things and exported them - bringing reasonable wealth to many, into an economy reliant on the shuffling of papers in the financial markets - bringing enormous wealth to a relative few, and leaving the rest to work in call centres at minimum wage

No it wasnt LadyE. Successive UK governments from the late 50s poured billions into manufacturing,the only result was decline and failure and rationalistaion that this time was going to change everything, and never did..
It is true to say that Mrs T decided to change that approach , free industry from the shackles of  state intervention , privatise as much as she could and hope that the national enterpreneurial spirit would fly high into the sky,.
Some hope with our educational system spewing out experts in almost every subject guaranteed not to add a farthing of added value to anything. In fact to require tax support to do anything at all..
The result....more decline, failure and rationalisation.

Thems the facts IMO ! 


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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 8:10:58 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

No it wasnt LadyE. Successive UK governments from the late 50s poured billions into manufacturing,the only result was decline and failure and rationalistaion that this time was going to change everything, and never did..
The result....more decline, failure and rationalisation. 



One of the problems with British industry was the management. Queens University used to do research for Yamaha, maybe still do, I don't kow, however, before that they used to do research for BSA and Triumph. The head of department said the difference between the British industry and the Japanese was one of different universes. When the department had an idea that needed testing, the British industry would ask how much would it cost and go away for six months to think about it. Yamaha on the otherhand made decisions within 24 hours, invariably to go ahead with the research. No wonder the Japanese industry left the British industry in its wake, no amount of money would solve that deeply crippling cultural problem. When Thatcher went to war against the workers, she had the wrong people in her sights.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 5/11/2007 8:11:57 AM >


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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 8:19:31 AM   
LadyEllen


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Whilst I would concur with the general decline Seeks, and the failures of state interventions, I believe it was a major mistake the way that Thatcher imposed decline even further in preference for paper shuffling. It was a "give up and forget about it" approach, and if half the effort had been put into modernising the equipment, practices and most importantly the management in manufacturing companies as was put into paper shuffling, we would be in a much better position now.

I wonder why it is that UK manufacturing proved so lamentably poor compared to that of other European nations? Because I believe, we are ridden with a class structure that says that "Tim nice but dim" is cut out for management because his father was a major general in India and Tim went to private school, but someone like me is only fit for the production line or as a clerk at best.

Because I believe, we still have this attitude and have had it for decades back into imperial days, that "British is best" and that "damned foreigners" should speak English. True story - I went for a job in the export department of a manufacturer here when I finished my A levels. I speak German and French - its in the bag I thought. The reaction to my linguistic abilities? "how nice for you. it must be so useful on holidays". How in fxxk do they expect to sell anything in Europe when they have absolutely no ability and no will to develop relationships with overseas companies in the local language? The answer is they dont, because all their European competitors do speak their clients' languages, do develop relationships and thrive, whilst our idiot lot go down the pan.

And then there's this idea that British management seem to have, that they are the best in the world. We saw how good they are with the Rover fiasco - thinking they were better and could outsmart the "stupid little Chinese". What happened? The Chinese held off on the deal just long enough for Rover to go under, and then bought the whole lot for next to nothing, whilst the upper class twits running Rover stared, bewildered as to what was happening.

So why do we need Diversity Managers? For many of the reasons stated above - to make sure that good people are not excluded just because of who their parents are, where they come from, for not wearing some old school tie or for being in some way "not a good chap, what?"

E

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RE: "College cost crunch felt worldwide, not just ... - 5/11/2007 11:15:14 AM   
popeye1250


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Engineering jobs pay very well in the U.S.
When I went to college I didn't have any of those financial problems as the Veteran's Administration payed for everything!
I'd be in the campus bookstore and charge up $400 in text books to the V.A. and most of the people behind me had their checkbooks and credit cards out.
Halfway through college I tried to get a job with a govt. agency and was told that you needed a "degree" for one of those jobs.
I looked at the lady and told her that you don't need a college degree to do that job.
She just looked at me and said nothing.
There was really nothing she could say, she knew I was right.
It was a paper-pushing job. Jobs that were done by Secretaries five years before that.
As more people with degrees took govt. jobs they uped the "qualifications", gave those jobs "titles", got rid of the Secretaries and raised the pay scales.
Talk about "feathering your nest!"
"We'll make this job a G.S.-15 from a G.S.- 9."
So they got rid of the Secretarys and now everyone has a "title."
But, that's what beaurocrats do and the taxpayers get screwed!
These days you can get a degree "on line."
The University of Phoenix and a bunch of others advertise on television.
What ever happened to "OJT?"
On the job training. That's how most people learned their jobs and they didn't require "degrees"
Now most have "degrees" and they don't know their jobs.
I think the govt. needs to re-examine the whole Civil Service System.
Like the saying goes; "Too many Cheifs, not enough Indians."
We're just not getting our money'sworth paying people $80-$100k for sitting at desks doing paperwork that is basically a Secretary's job @ $45k.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 20
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