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RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/18/2005 2:37:38 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
OK... this is from a Christian perpective.

Am I aroused by BDSM?
I wouldn't say I was.

Am I aroused by my partner performing BDSM acts upon me?
Sometimes.

Am I aroused by the Control/submission aspects that D/s thrusts upon me?
Again, sometimes.

But thats because, in my head, my submission is what I am. Its not all about the sex and the stimulation - its about being true to my identity.

Are all BDSM acts fornication?
No.

Are all Bdsm acts sinful?
No.

But how you respond to them that determines what they are under the eyes of God only.

For an example - you could be having wonderful, meaningful whippings that get you right off with the most beautiful dominia who you see occasionally and are not married to. You consent. So does she. In a sense, your admiration and love for her is unbounding in your submission. You would do anything for her. Half way through, you see an angel(bare with me now...) that Angel says 'Clay, it is Gods wish that you stop this right now ' You look at this angel... and say... 'very well'... You obey Gods desire.

Meanwhile, in another part of town... a Man is getting married. Hes marrying some girl who is pregnant (doesn't mean its his child), he will get a better house... he is doing it because 'its the right thing' to do - he wants to help and protect this girl. That angel(same one - told Ya you gots to bare with me...lol) comes to him and says ' Do not marry this girl' and he looks at the angel and says ' But her parents will disown her, shes my friend, and its the best thing to do'.... and he marries her - whos the bigger sinner?

God loves. God gave women a clitoris for goodness sake. He loves sex. He loves the purity of it - the majesty. What he doesn't 'like' is the judgements people make on His behalf... He doen't enjoy seeing it abused. But for a lifestyle thats crying out that the consensuality that is contained within us means we are not abusing - doesn't that count for anything?

It isn't up to us to judge what it fornication. Sure, the bible was written by God - but its translated by Man... and as Godly as Man may be, Man isn't perfect. If man was, then what would be the point of God? If Man were perfect, there would be no man, only Angels. And Angels were created to serve man - think about that! Try and grasp that beautiful concept, that God created something to serve us!

Think about all the missing books in the bible - the half written txts... the books that the 'Men of the Church' left out (which include that written by women) because they didn't 'quite fit'? How about the translations from aramaic... and the words used today?(Its already recognised even within our community that the definitions of wiitwd outside our littel 'group' don't conform)

Maybe I am taking a far too simplistic view. Maybe I am a terrible sinner in everyones eyes. But I don't really care what others think.

I only care that I am Loved By God, judged by God and that I am saved.

(Didn't mean to sound preachy - just the thoughts of a humble woman under Christ)

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to CTclay)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/18/2005 6:56:01 AM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline 		Clay, what you are missing - or maybe what we both are missing, is I'm coming from a monogamous perspective, and after reading more of your replies, you seem to be coming from a multiple partner perspective.

So yea, if for you BDSM = Multiple partners, I would have a hard time reconciling Jesus teachings + the Mosiac law with BDSM.

If BDSM does not = multiple partners, then I don't see an issue. There is no substantive difference between lights out missionary with my love and spanking my love while taking her dorsally. Capishce?

On the passages you quoted, you really do have it wrong. They aren't about sexual purity specifically - they are about intent in our hearts in general. It could apply to sexual purity - you might commit adultery in your heart, or muder in your heart, or covet in your heart - it's about internal actions having reality.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/18/2005 7:14:39 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

I just nailed my theses to the CollarMe door. I'm troubled, asking for the input of others and I'm not afraid to take the direction that my judgment leads me in after considering the views of my fellow theologians here.


CTclay,
We think you nailed the theses to the wrong door. Luther used the door of the church. He had a problem with worldly men claiming they spoke with the word of God. Interpreting the writings in the bible to justify the power they claimed when it came to doctrine. He came to the conclusion that the church "fathers" were wrong and ceased to pledge his allegiance to them and their church, yet maintained his relationship with God. Tough choice for a monk.

We don't think you need to reconcile your feelings with the people of CollarMe or the BDSM community. We think this site has many people who have reconciled their beliefs with their lifestyle activity. Much of the church law is man made, not divine. As an ex-Catholic who rose to the rank of altar boy "Captain", I lose sleep at night wondering about all those people who went to hell for eating meat on Friday - when that "law" was taken off the books did they get a "pardon" from Heaven's Governor?

(in reply to CTclay)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/18/2005 7:15:55 AM   
SenorX


Posts: 142
Joined: 12/23/2004
Status: offline 		Monogamy is not a doctrine of initial Christian teaching. That came about later in the chronological progression of Christianity. Just like the 'missionary' position. Hmmm, I wonder why it was called 'missionary' since missionaries didn't exist during the initial stages of 'Christianity'. It came about later.

X

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/18/2005 3:07:42 PM   
CTclay


Posts: 123
Joined: 11/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

If BDSM does not = multiple partners, then I don't see an issue. There is no substantive difference between lights out missionary with my love and spanking my love while taking her dorsally. Capishce?


What if Jesus' problem is with "lights out missionary"? I mean, he mentions fornication as something that can defile you, which can be lights out missionary with someone you're not married to, right? I think that's pretty much been my point all along.

If simple submissiveness and dominance were the issue, I think you could do it without Christ minding. I think it's the sex, which is so often associated with BDSM as it is actually practiced by, I think, nearly everyone who's into it.

And please don't spell it "capishce." It's "capisce," capisce? ;-)


(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/18/2005 3:22:03 PM   
CTclay


Posts: 123
Joined: 11/6/2004
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quote:

Much of the church law is man made, not divine. As an ex-Catholic who rose to the rank of altar boy "Captain", I lose sleep at night wondering about all those people who went to hell for eating meat on Friday - when that "law" was taken off the books did they get a "pardon" from Heaven's Governor?


Well, Merc, you clearly outranked my status as an altar boy soldier. But are you saying that the passages I quoted from the Bible about what Jesus said should be disregarded the way the ban on eating meat on Friday was? Were those passages manmade or Jesus made?

If those quotes aren't from Jesus (I don't mean word for word of course, just the intent), then how do we know that anything else in the Bible is really from him?

If it's Jesus you have trouble with, then we differ. I'm a Christian. Are you? (Not a rhetorical question -- none of these are.)

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/18/2005 4:21:34 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

someone you're not married to, right?


But - how does one define marriage?

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to CTclay)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/18/2005 5:22:57 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

I'm a Christian. Are you? (Not a rhetorical question -- none of these are.)


CTclay,
Am I a Christian? I believe Christ existed. I believe he was a good man. I believe his life story and actions have been exploited. I believe that as a result, over the last two millennium many people have died and suffered "in his name". That said, if it wasn't in Jesus' name, I'm sure someone or something else would have been elevated to the same god status to justify authority and power.

I have no "trouble" with Jesus, Buddha, or even Mohammad. If people and their followers wouldn't try to manipulate their words to justify crusades, intifada, or jihad, I'd like their followers too.

Why downplay the significance of the "Mortal sin" of eating meat on Friday. It was doctrine. Do we forget it? Until Vatican II it took "special dispensation" to eat meat on Friday. Eating lobster was considered a sacrifice. But I learned from that example. Even now, every lent I give up brussels sprouts, cauliflower, and mashed potatoes. Being devote, I "sacrifice" those items year round.

I remember being given a "holy water" bottle to be carried with me at all times in case I saw an accident and had to baptize someone critically injured. Miss mass on Sunday or a holy day of obligation and die suddenly before going to confession and you are doomed to hell, but if Hitler was "truly sorry" and confessed in the bunker he could have gone to heaven if he just wasn't selfish and committed suicide. Actual story told to my 3 grade class by the nuns.

As funny as George Carlin makes the concept of buying "pagan babies"; how presumptuous was it for the nuns and priests to solicit money from children and tell them these native people would be doomed to hell if we didn't save them by baptizing them into the church. Even the church's current aversion to birth control is a thinly veiled attempt to increase the population of Catholics. When last polled nearly 75% of US catholics "sinned" daily against this decree.

Reading the bible as a text for governing the masses makes it have a much different meaning. What is the true meaning? Almost any political, social, sexual, philosophical, and spiritual position can be defended by a bible reference, on either side of the argument. The marketing of the church was fantastic, right out of Madison Avenue. All the holidays coincide with prior "pagan" festivals. Pagan idols or individual gods, replaced by saints. Oh yes, I know we pray to saints to intercede on our behalf, not to minor gods as the pagans do/did. I let others enlighten me to the distinction. Another pondering it what happened to all those saints who were downgraded after Vatican II? Even Santa Claus (St. Nickolas) was reduced to a small "s". On the other hand the church decided to implement a saint "fast track" for Mother Theresa and John Paul II. I believe they got that idea from Baseball when Roberto Clemente was put in the Hall of Fame without waiting the required 5 years. We pray to Mary as Christ's mother to intercede for us. What an interesting picture. Christ is in heaven and decided to go over to his mother's house for dinner and she hits him with 165 million intercessions, and that's just this week! Should she wonder he doesn't stop by or call more often?

Look, me talking religion is ALMOST as bad as me talking politics. I sure I'm offended just about everyone, no problem. In my life I tried my best to be religious. I still read and research religious doctrine religiously. I would consider myself an atheist but I couldn't justify that position. I had the argument that I saw no evidence of god so he doesn't exist. I lost the self argument when I remembered that I believe in alien life but haven't seen that exist either.

I consider myself a religious agnostic. I think too much of a deity to think he/she has time to take any time to think of me. beth tries her best, but to me the biggest sin is hypocrisy. In some manner ALL organized religions are guilty of that sin. Not religious people, but religions. I admire and in many respects envy religious people. beth for one. I wish I had her faith, especially because her believe is if we live a good life we will be together forever. Trust me, I wish I could believe that were true! What can I say - Pray for me to be enlightened?

Many can and have said it better than I. I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes on the subject:

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.
Thomas Jefferson

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 5/19/2005 6:15:26 AM >

(in reply to CTclay)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/18/2005 7:02:15 PM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Look, me talking religion is ALMOST as bad as me talking politics. I sure I'm offended just about everyone


Merc, I can't speak for everyone but I agree with many of your points. And as always, you make your points in a thoroughly entertaining way.

quote:


I admire and in many respects envy religious people. beth for one. I wish I had her faith, especially because her believe is if we live a good life we will be together forever. Trust me, I wish I could believe that were true! What can I say - Pray for me to be enlightened?


LOL. Well, if that is what you want..... I will add you to my prayer list.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/19/2005 5:06:18 PM   
CTclay


Posts: 123
Joined: 11/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I believe Christ existed. I believe he was a good man.


OK, that's where we differ. I disagree with your conclusions about religion. I believe He's much more than just a good man -- I believe He's God, and I have to do what he says. I appreciate your replying.

My own view is that the simplest, clearest, most reasonable explanation for what happened 2,000 years ago in Israel is that Jesus is Divine, performed miracles and then conquered death. His teachings, taken as a whole, seem wonderfully coherent overall (although some things are very difficult -- what he said about divorce and about eternal damnation are difficult for me to believe). I notice you don't talk much about Jesus but a lot about the sins, stupidities and inconsistencies of people running the Church. For me, that doesn't prove enough (and you even left many of the worst parts out, which still wouldn't be enough for me). I see much more good coming from the Church that you don't mention, but more importantly, I think the overall teaching makes sense.

I also don't have trouble accepting miracles like the one at Fatima, or the uncorrupted bodies of so many saints, or the stigmata that appear on dozens and dozens of people each century. I wouldn't want to try to call all of that mistaken or the result of hoaxes.

Since Jesus is God, he wouldn't have gone through the trouble of getting Himself crucified so that He would be outrageously misquoted for thousands of years, so it follows that the Bible has things essentially right in the Gospels. And he wouldn't have left a church that got essential things wrong (and, independently of that, I don't think the essential teachings are wrong, as I said).

I'm actually amazed at some of the comments in this thread about the Gospel passages I quoted. A lot of the people who commented seem to be afraid of the clear, commonsense meaning of those passages. I don't think the meaning of "marriage" is that complicated. I don't think "purity" or "lust" or "fornication" are complicated concepts either. I think a lot of people who are posting here are just ignoring the clear meaning, because it's extremely unsettling. And I sympathize with that. Empathize with it too, because I feel it myself.

From what I know about BDSM, first- and second-hand, it's animated by lust (even when it's animated even more by love). I can't justify it. Thanks everyone, for your replies to my own postings. bye.


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/19/2005 5:14:53 PM   
dmarc


Posts: 38
Joined: 11/9/2004
Status: offline 		This is a very interesting, and to many people an important topic.

For me (and I speak only in regards to my view), it is important and in recent years has been made clear to me. I have spent almost 2 years in a Catholic community that was routed 24/7 to the beliefs of the church & the Catholic faith, although I discovered for me that my own faith and my beliefs and my feelings in life were nit strictly in line to the traditions of the church. But then lets hold that thought a min.

In history when has the church or its teaches been in line with its own teachings. It has been pointed out already in the board that many of the Doctrines of the church are man made in recent times.

But what relationship has this to do with faith and our interest in BDSM, Simple Its our interest in one another. I am sure for good in all in this what you desire to achieve with another is aimed to be beneficial to both. Deepening your growth as a person and for filling life.

The bond between each other can be in faith, in love and in truth and honestly... these elements are fundamental to life and clearly stated in Christianity. If you can bring joy and love to another within D/s then why is that dishonourable? Why is it so wrong? If God really finds that BDSM is such a sin, why did he/she allow it bring happiness? In my view we discover our inner lives as much as others discover life through science and biology.


(in reply to onceburned)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/21/2005 10:25:27 AM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: suberic101

How is BDSM in and of itself fornication? If one chooses to have sex outside of marriage- now that is fornication.


Two ppl having sex who are not married is what's called fornication. Adulty under the ten commandments Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultry is when one who is married has sex with one he/she is not married to.

fornication is just like getting drunk. It's a suggested criteria not to do. Adultry is the Do NOT.

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

(in reply to suberic101)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/21/2005 10:37:09 AM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		Manogamy was set in stone during the 10 commandments. Look how much trouble was caused before then. As the bible predicted the Hebrews and Palestines will fight untill the end of time all because one man couldn't keep his pants on.

I personaly view everything in the bible before Abraham as Hebrew Mythology and not acctual fact. However those stories display the Judio/Christian beliefs. In those stories God gave Adam one woman. Not two or three or four but one and only one. So monogamy has been presented in the beginging before christianity in the chronological progression of judisim.

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/21/2005 11:13:15 AM   
Lepidoptera


Posts: 161
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

Manogamy was set in stone during the 10 commandments. Look how much trouble was caused before then. As the bible predicted the Hebrews and Palestines will fight untill the end of time all because one man couldn't keep his pants on.

I personaly view everything in the bible before Abraham as Hebrew Mythology and not acctual fact. However those stories display the Judio/Christian beliefs. In those stories God gave Adam one woman. Not two or three or four but one and only one. So monogamy has been presented in the beginging before christianity in the chronological progression of judisim.


The commandment says " Thou shalt not commit adultry." All that means is that you can't have sex with someone if you aren't married to her. But you can have all the wives you want!

The Bible is riddled with examples of polygamy.


Oh, and actually God gave Adam more than one woman... just not at once. Eve was the final product.

< Message edited by Lepidoptera -- 5/21/2005 11:14:15 AM >

(in reply to FangsNfeet)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/21/2005 11:53:00 AM   
AlienMaster


Posts: 2
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline 		On this subject there is balance for the mind in this. "I have bought bread, and I have been given roses: How happy I am to hold both in my hands!"

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/21/2005 12:06:47 PM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		What a wonderful interpritaion/oppinoin you have. To bad it can never be fully proven nor convinced with the mass populace of the christian world.

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/22/2005 6:26:28 PM   
veryopen


Posts: 5
Joined: 5/21/2005
Status: offline 		Lady Astor, who was frivolously irreverent and quite amoral was once asked by a clergyman if she thought that God would forgive her.

Her reply: "Sure he will, that's his job."

(in reply to PrincessWordSex)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/23/2005 1:58:37 AM   
MsMacComb


Posts: 808
Joined: 3/30/2005
From: My Mothers womb.
Status: offline 		From what I can tell S/M stems from religion. Whipping, atonement, sin, guilt, punishment, blind obediance, following a higer power or Master/Mistress, denial, obsession, pretty much you name it and it can be attributed to both.

_____________________________

Not looking for anyone for anything, any time.

(in reply to veryopen)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/23/2005 2:34:37 AM   
ElektraUkM


Posts: 309
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Paul speaking out against women speaking in the church was merely an outcry against loud raucous women that went in to upset the proceedings. They would stand in the church and yell across the aisles asking their husbands what the teacher was talking about, disrupting the church. See, men would sit on one side of the church, women would sit on the other. Paul was telling the women of the church to wait until they got home to ask their questions, if any.


Wouldn't it have been simpler to allow the wives and husbands to sit together..? And put things in a simpler way..? And WHY was it just women who couldn't understand? And why did they feel the need to ask their husbands the answers..?

~ Elektra

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: BDSM lifestyle VS Christianity/Religion - 5/23/2005 3:12:32 AM   
suberic101


Posts: 84
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Paul speaking out against women speaking in the church was merely an outcry against loud raucous women that went in to upset the proceedings. They would stand in the church and yell across the aisles asking their husbands what the teacher was talking about, disrupting the church. See, men would sit on one side of the church, women would sit on the other. Paul was telling the women of the church to wait until they got home to ask their questions, if any.


Wouldn't it have been simpler to allow the wives and husbands to sit together..? And put things in a simpler way..? And WHY was it just women who couldn't understand? And why did they feel the need to ask their husbands the answers..?

~ Elektra



That whole question, in your last paragraph, was kind of a culture thing. They lived in a male-dominated society. Women weren't thought to be capable of comprehending such 'spiritual' thought, and were not given much heed. Read the Easter story for example. The women saw Jesus after his resurrection, and testified to this fact to the disciples. The disciples discredited them- because they thought the women were being fool hardy. Well, we know who was fool hardy. There are numerous examples one can site to make the case that women were considered to be 'lower' than men.

(in reply to ElektraUkM)
Profile   Post #: 80
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