RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub.

RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (Full Version)

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RavenMuse -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 7:05:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion Think about that for a bit before you react with only yourself in mind. Why? The issue here is about two people looking for compatability enough to start a relationship.... I don't need to take on the struggles of a global group in order to do that. I make it clear that lies are TOTALY unacceptable... if they feel they have to lie, then we are not compatable and they can move on to someone else! It is said often enough to the dims that expect subs to act in a particular way before they have even got to the point of submission... till that submission, till that relationship is entered into then neither side owes the other ANYTHING! It is not something I need to take onboard. I can find what I am looking for elsewhere without needing to. Now If I am finding a girl interesting and she discloses that she is TG/TS it doesn't change that I find her interesting... at that point I can choose to take on board the issues as part of building something with her.... before that I need not do so as the fast majority of what I am dealing with don't have that issue. Same as if I am finding a girl interesting and she discloses she has a bunch of kids... major issue, that I'd only find out later on down the road. I don't need to put in My profile that I'm fine with talking to girls who have kids as it only becomes an issue FOR ME, at the point where I start looking at building something with someone with that particular issue. Before that it is HER issue and part of what she faces in her search.

IrishMist -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 7:50:58 AM)
I am going to approach this from a different angle. While I do agree with all who said that trust is a major issue, one thing that no one has touched on is this. There are many who are born a certain gender and have never accepted themselves in that role; ie a male believes himself a female all his life. An operation does nothing more than turn his/her belief into a reality. Yet, when they meet someone, they actually never consider themselves to be anything other than what they have always been. I don't see this as lying to someone if they don't tell them. I see it as them being true to themselves. There are so many different angles to this question that the issue of only trust can not adequetly do it justice. Just something to think about.

MstrssPassion -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 8:07:25 AM)
I'm not sure I follow what you are saying? Correct me if I'm wrong (which is might be the case) Are you saying that if the person is dealing with GID & has elected to not go through transition that they are being true to ..... ?? I'm sorry but this is no different that the gay man who gets married, has a family & then comes out to the wife after 40 yrs of marriage... hey, I'm gay & I don't want to be in this marriage with you anymore. If a TS who has not done anything about transition isn't being honest with anyone, namely themselves. Sure, they may fool themselves into thinking, if I ignore this maybe it will go away... just like the gay man... if I just don't give into this I can be "normal" like everyone else. This isn't honesty or truth... it's denial

Wildfleurs -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 10:45:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stella40 This is a question for male Doms. You have found what you believe to be the ideal female submissive, you get on with her, and she is everything you could ever want. You develop a close, meaningful D/s relationship with her. Then one day you discover that she was a transsexual and much of her past was spent in male gender. How would you react? Would it make any difference to your relationship? I know you asked specifically for input from male doms, but I'm only responding because I asked my owner and he said that he would end whatever sort of relationship had developed because the person was a transsexual and also because of the deception. Personally I'd do the same. C~

MstrssPassion -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 11:09:58 AM)
I still fail to see how this can be viewed as deception... the OP never said that the person who was transsexual willfully deceived or allowed the person to assume anything. The OP writes that they were getting along famously & then this person discovers their trans status. The OP doesn't say that they had no intention of ever informing this person. The only thinbg implied is that they had not up to that point. The only question that needs to be asked in order to determine deceit would be, did the TS plan to tell this person about their history at some point & they just had not at this point? Just because it had not been discussed at this point in no way means that anyone has deceived anyone it simply had not been discussed. The only way the TS could then be considered to be a lier or deceitful is if they had no intention of ever revealing this or they had flat out lead this person to believe they were in fact born & lived their entire life as the gender they were identifying as presently.

RavenMuse -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 12:10:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion I still fail to see how this can be viewed as deception... the OP never said that the person who was transsexual willfully deceived or allowed the person to assume anything. quote: You develop a close, meaningful D/s relationship with her. If there was a close meaningful relationship AND the issue hadn't been made clear then there was deception.... OR you are talking about people who don't communicate! The only way that point could be reached without the matter being raised is if it was hidden.

LadyEllen -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 1:42:04 PM)
I have never read so much PC bullshit in all my life. The fact is, that any revelation, any hint whatever beforehand, that one might be TS, and all you see is dust. "Getting to know" and "complimentary personality" and "assorted other platitudes" dont come into it. And if one doesnt tell until later - and why should one have to give a friggin' life story? One is suddenly the great deceiver on a par with Lucifer. Speaking from experience. Oh yes, I look right and I am right - unless all these guys who contact me are gay or something (which is a stretch, as they'd be unusual gay men, finding a female look attractive), and unless the occasional lesbian woman who contacts me is short sighted to the extreme. Crikey - I'm the best looking thang they ever saw in their lives, until those two letters, T and S are mentioned. E

MstrssPassion -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 2:10:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RavenMuse quote: ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion I still fail to see how this can be viewed as deception... the OP never said that the person who was transsexual willfully deceived or allowed the person to assume anything. quote: You develop a close, meaningful D/s relationship with her. If there was a close meaningful relationship AND the issue hadn't been made clear then there was deception.... OR you are talking about people who don't communicate! The only way that point could be reached without the matter being raised is if it was hidden. Raven you know as well as I do that some people talk about the close meaningful relationships that they have with people they have never laid eyes on... I mean buy todays standards... the typical deep meaningful relationship means that you added their profile to your favorites on 3 separate websites, you have their AIM/AOL, MSN & Their Yahoo ID on your buddy list in the special catagory reserved just for them at the top of your buddy list & you've exchange nudie pics 3 times in the last week. [sm=rolleyes.gif] I believe that far too much is being assumed about the vague post in order to camouflage a sentiment of disgust

MissHarlet -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 2:34:10 PM)
Lies of omission are still lies and deal breakers for me.

Wildfleurs -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 2:46:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion I still fail to see how this can be viewed as deception... the OP never said that the person who was transsexual willfully deceived or allowed the person to assume anything. The OP writes that they were getting along famously & then this person discovers their trans status. The OP doesn't say that they had no intention of ever informing this person. The only thinbg implied is that they had not up to that point. The only question that needs to be asked in order to determine deceit would be, did the TS plan to tell this person about their history at some point & they just had not at this point? Just because it had not been discussed at this point in no way means that anyone has deceived anyone it simply had not been discussed. The only way the TS could then be considered to be a lier or deceitful is if they had no intention of ever revealing this or they had flat out lead this person to believe they were in fact born & lived their entire life as the gender they were identifying as presently. Okay I'll bite. The OP says, "You develop a close, meaningful D/s relationship with her." The OP didn't say casual dating or still getting to know each other. The OP said that there was a close and meaningful relationship. So to not tell someone in that sort of environment or point in the relationship that you've changed genders is to me decietful. I totally get that transgendered people personally feel that they were always a certain gender and born in the wrong body and that the surgery is simply an alignment of the inner with the outer. However, I think its niave if not downright silly to not realize that not everyone views gender issues that way, and for some heterosexual men being a heterosexual male dominant means that they want a woman and for them a womanwhousedtobeaman is not what they personally consider a woman. So, yes, to ignore the possibility that the person feels that way and instead decide that every single person should feel and believe what they believe and thus hide a formative part of ones development is to me, absolutely deceptive. C~

IrishMist -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 2:47:40 PM)
/sigh I have this girlfriend who lives in Texas. I have known her since...oh my...since my late husband was still alive, more than 12 years now. She was an old GF of his, and to this day, we are still friends. About two years ago, she came up here for a vacation and we started talking. It came out that she was actually born a he [:)] and had had her operation when she turned 18. I was so shocked and amazed because there was nothing about this young lady that was NOT in any way very feminine. ANnnnny wayyyyyy...we got to talking about this and I asked her how come she had not told me this long long ago and her answer actually surprised me a lot. She said that it had never occured to her. All her life, from the earliest she could remember, she had NEVER once thought of herself as a HE. Even before the operation. Physically making the change to female did not actually change HER. SHe was still a SHE. I never once thought that she was hiding this from me. It actually had just never occured to her because as far as she was concerned, it was not the body that made the person; it was what was inside. The operation had changed NOTHING. SHE was still a SHE. What I was trying to say is that, while I can understand where most are coming from when they say that the omission of such information could be seen as lying...perhaps, they should also look at it a different way though. Perhaps many just don't THINK of themselves as different ....

LadyEllen -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 2:53:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs Okay I'll bite. The OP says, "You develop a close, meaningful D/s relationship with her." The OP didn't say casual dating or still getting to know each other. The OP said that there was a close and meaningful relationship. So to not tell someone in that sort of environment or point in the relationship that you've changed genders is to me decietful. I totally get that transgendered people personally feel that they were always a certain gender and born in the wrong body and that the surgery is simply an alignment of the inner with the outer. However, I think its niave if not downright silly to not realize that not everyone views gender issues that way, and for some heterosexual men being a heterosexual male dominant means that they want a woman and for them a womanwhousedtobeaman is not what they personally consider a woman. So, yes, to ignore the possibility that the person feels that way and instead decide that every single person should feel and believe what they believe and thus hide a formative part of ones development is to me, absolutely deceptive. C~ The problem though, is that whenever one reveals the background, the other takes it as deception. If one reveals at the start, at the chatting up stage, then the guy feels deceived. If one reveals during initial dating, the guy feels deceived. If one reveals when its become a LTR, the guy feels deceived. This isnt theory. This is my experience. Well, the first part anyway as I'm far too bleedin' honest to get any further. What also isnt theory is that revelation often leads to extreme violence as a reaction. Maybe we should all wear neon flashing lights that show T and S alternately. E

Wildfleurs -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 2:57:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen The problem though, is that whenever one reveals the background, the other takes it as deception. If one reveals at the start, at the chatting up stage, then the guy feels deceived. If one reveals during initial dating, the guy feels deceived. If one reveals when its become a LTR, the guy feels deceived. This isnt theory. This is my experience. Well, the first part anyway as I'm far too bleedin' honest to get any further. What also isnt theory is that revelation often leads to extreme violence as a reaction. Maybe we should all wear neon flashing lights that show T and S alternately. E I can only say personally and for my owner that saying it upfront (first or second date) wouldn't be considered deciet at all. We have people in our local scene that are transgendered, very open about it, and every time we see them are having fun (i.e. socializing and scening with people) and its all good. Just like I know there are people that aren't attracted to me because I'm fat, the same holds true for any category (however violence, which I agree does probably happen at the point of revelation in some instances is absolutely not a good/approrpriate/condonable thing). C~

LadyEllen -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 3:10:39 PM)
Thats perhaps one of the paradoxes Wildfleurs. The better one passes as female, the more likely that the revelation will be seen as a deception until that point. The guy thought and believed one was female and then suddenly discovers - usually to his enormous embarassment, that one isnt. He then gets pissy for deceiving him, even if one told him with one's first words. If one doesnt pass so well, then any guy approaching is likely only approaching because he knows already, and he's hardly likely to be that pissed off when one tells him. Problem being though, that in order not to get harassed, beaten up and even killed in the street, one has to pass to a very high standard indeed. E

Wildfleurs -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 3:22:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Thats perhaps one of the paradoxes Wildfleurs. The better one passes as female, the more likely that the revelation will be seen as a deception until that point. The guy thought and believed one was female and then suddenly discovers - usually to his enormous embarassment, that one isnt. He then gets pissy for deceiving him, even if one told him with one's first words. If one doesnt pass so well, then any guy approaching is likely only approaching because he knows already, and he's hardly likely to be that pissed off when one tells him. Problem being though, that in order not to get harassed, beaten up and even killed in the street, one has to pass to a very high standard indeed. E See I don't think its a paradox, but again my own standard is that if the person is pretty open and forthcoming with it (first or second date) then thats sufficient. After a close and meaningful relationship has developed its absolutely decietful, regardless of what the thing is the person is divulging. C~

lovewithoutfear -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 4:22:20 PM)
"The only way the TS could then be considered to be a lier or deceitful is if they had no intention of ever revealing this or they had flat out lead this person to believe they were in fact born & lived their entire life as the gender they were identifying as presently. " I agree with this. It's hard enough for transpeople in so many ways. I can only imagine how difficult it must be to figure out when to reveal this information. It is at once a deeply personal thing and something basic to the way people view others. Reveal it too soon and scare someone off. Reveal it too late and they may be angry at what seemed like a deception. Ugh. I would not want to be in a TS person's dilemma! Regards JY

lovewithoutfear -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 4:24:00 PM)
"The only way that point could be reached without the matter being raised is if it was hidden. " Also a very good point. I guess it to some extent depends on a person's definition of close and meaningful.

MstrssPassion -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 5:00:45 PM)
I guess it is pointless to continue... but I have to say one final time.... if any of you have an aversion to being involved with a TS then why not simply make this a known fact about yourself? Why does it have to be they tell you & because they don't within a period of time you feel they should then they are deceitful liers. People have no issue with telling others that they have no desire to be involved in a same sex relationship or they prefer to only be in a same sex relationship.... people really don't have an issue with telling folk they do not wish to be involved in an interracial relationship.... why is it so difficult to be upfront with people & say... I prefer to not involve myself with a TS? This "reveal" should not be solely upon the shoulders of the TS. Everyone seems to be so concerned with their own dignity, why not offer some back. If you make it known right up front, the TS will most likely respect your wishes & back out or never approach you in the first place... so everyone can save face.

robertolapiedra -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/21/2007 11:00:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion I guess it is pointless to continue... but I have to say one final time.... if any of you have an aversion to being involved with a TS then why not simply make this a known fact about yourself? Why does it have to be they tell you & because they don't within a period of time you feel they should then they are deceitful liers. People have no issue with telling others that they have no desire to be involved in a same sex relationship or they prefer to only be in a same sex relationship.... people really don't have an issue with telling folk they do not wish to be involved in an interracial relationship.... why is it so difficult to be upfront with people & say... I prefer to not involve myself with a TS? This "reveal" should not be solely upon the shoulders of the TS. Everyone seems to be so concerned with their own dignity, why not offer some back. If you make it known right up front, the TS will most likely respect your wishes & back out or never approach you in the first place... so everyone can save face. Hello MstrssPassion. "Save face??". I said in my prior reply that TG (or TS) does not bother me as I know about what is 'particular' to TG. For me it is clear. Now, should I announce in my profile " no aversion to TG? TG welcomed? TG friendly?" TG are not a kink, nor a preference, nor a sexual orientation issue in my opinion. Now if the TG is ashamed of having been in the past, a man or a woman stuck in another body? I understand that. But, as the post implies, the TG 'is' today in the 'right' body and 'lies' from onset (by omission) about not being able to have children except by adoption (costly 'joint' venture). She is deceitful from the start (Baaaaad start!). She also lies about relations and family (still by omission) prior to sex change and that could set you up for 'surprises' (cat out of the bag thingie) in social settings? As the example in the post is an 'ideal submissive' that has made a grave mistake (like any other deceiving 'non TG' perfect slave) you expose yourself to grave consequences like being dismissed. TGs have the right to decieve? I don't buy it, 'if' I decide to go on (forgive the deceit) you still will ge a tanning of sorts and this, like any other non TG submissive. TGs do not have the right to lie, just because the have had corrective surgery and a bad break from life.. TG are no better no worse than any human. TGs have to be up front with their past, same as everybody, no exceptions allowed. Sometimes corrective surgery is needed in the honest department also. RL.

MstrssPassion -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/22/2007 3:18:07 AM)
all are still assuming that this person intended to deceive & based on the responses everyone believes just as Ellen so often says.... all transsexuals should wear a flashing neon sign with the letters T & S on it

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