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Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/23/2007 12:51:59 AM

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Greetings to All:

This is more of a philosophical question do the females of Earth want to be a slave as is written in the books of Gor? I do not mean those of us here on these boards posting as it is obvious the the majority of us want the feel of the steel and iron and whip on our bodies. But the ones who have no knowledge of this stuff at all.

I write short erotica stories using the bdsm lifestyle in them. While at the hospital last night one of the nurses asked if she could read one of my stories. She liked it, thought it was interesting. She had no prior knowledge of the bdsm lifestyle.

It is to that my question goes toward. I know in the book what it says but i would like to know what the Masters, kajirs, and Free think. I do hope I have not disrespected anyone with my question or the way i formed it.

My question was brought by a passage from the Nomads of Gor. pg 337 par 5 " ...she was now alive , and free in her emotions though her flesh might be subject to chains...I wonder if there were other girls of Earth in whom such a transformation might be wrought,....a world in which they must find and be themselves, for no other choice would be theirs....wearing the collar of a slave girl, But I dismissed such thoughts as foolish." It seems here Tarl Cabot still does not want to give up the seperation of girls vs slaves. I hope I have explained clearly what I am seeking.

peace be to all.

patina

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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/23/2007 5:34:54 AM

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greetings patina,

when fyre first heard of Gor she was a Domme

and oh how it hit her gut and her brain said, ohhhhhhhhh strong Men!!!
no politically correct BS.....no femist movement....

so for fyre it was a resounding yes

but as one can see not all women seem to thrive on the harsh beauty of what is Gorean

so fyre can not speak for any other but her own heart.

as to the books, Tarl got the hang of it ,it just took awhile,keep reading.... he had western civilization thinking to change just as we girls go through a transformation

well wishes

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to patina)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/23/2007 6:37:08 AM

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Tal,

I can't say about all women, but I can say that I've met many a woman who, although indignate at the very suggestion of submissiveness, goes weak in the knees taken and bound.

Best,

Tim

(in reply to fyreredsub)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/23/2007 6:40:19 AM

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Pretty much anytime you say "all" about humans you are going to be wrong. Hell, not all men have an XY chromosome...there are a few with XXY and some other odd combinations.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/23/2007 6:40:52 AM

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Hello patina,

The inherent problem with your question is that you can not ask any one group of people what is best for each and every individual.

Do all women want, or would all women thrive and flourish in Gorean slavery? Absolutely not. Many would say that the women who would not thrive in those bonds are less of women or hiding from themselves, but personally, I do not find that to be at all true.

There are too many variables...just to throw out a monkey wrench... how do you think a lesbian would fair in a culture where she would be subject to the whims and pleasures of men before women? (Just to add a bit more...in contrast, I can tell you that not only do I wither under the dominion of women, but I find that to some degree, I degenerate as person as well.. it absolutely contrary to my nature.)

I am sure you will get many responses your question.. just thought I would toss in my two cents.

< Message edited by puella -- 5/23/2007 6:55:29 AM >

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to patina)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/23/2007 7:55:20 AM

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I enjoy and appreciate strong men, and women as well. I find myself attracted to strong people in general and to prefer strong people to weak people in my life. Except in one area - sexually and romantically, there's zero attraction for me to a really alpha male. If he can't submit and needs to be dominant all the time, there is no chemistry. The spark just doesn't fire, even if he's a total hottie. Something in my brain completely turns off. I may want to be his buddy and really enjoy hanging out, and I always appreciate having a strong and reliable alpha covering my back if I'm doing something dangerous. But I just can't get interested in him any other way. The lack of attraction tends to go both ways. Alpha males tend to respond socially to me as another alpha male even when they're not fully aware they're doing it, and they are definitely not attracted to me except sometimes in friendship.

It's not even that I have an ego problem with switching in bed. I'd be a perfectly good sport about it and I'm sure it would even be fun. I'm open to daring adventures, and it would just be another adventure. But there's something really fundamental in my basic wiring and chemistry that drives me to dominance and mastery, and I don't have conscious control over it any more than I do over my sexual orientation. I am easily capable of what I refer to as situational submission, particularly in safety situations on the job. I consider it an exercise in self discipline and professional ethics. But it's professional, not personal. I really don't get a kick out of it either, and if the person directing me makes it personal rather than professional on any level, then homey don't play that game and they're going to get a serious comeuppance as soon as we're out of the immediate safety situation.

It's not even specifically dominance over others that I feel driven to, though I'll admit that it's what lights my fire in intimate situations. It's more the mastery of Self, and a fundamental wrongness at the idea that anyone else's wishes could interfere in any way with my personal path and how I walk it. I have a calling that for me borders on the sacred, and my life belongs to that calling before it belongs to anyone else. I go where I need to and I do what I feel that I have to. Anyone whose agenda caused obstacles on that path would have to be left behind, no matter how painful that might be. I would not be able to put another person's wishes ahead of my own need to direct and shape my life. If it ever came to a conflict, they would either have to sublimate their needs to mine or they would no longer be able to be a part of my life.

I think it's natural to assume that what we feel, everyone else must also feel. But that's simply not true. What is true in your most secret heart may not be the same as what is true in the next person's, and the next person's. I'm intellectually aware that submission and slavery is as powerful a calling for others as my path is for me, but emotionally it's difficult to grasp. I'm sure that's so the other way around also.

(in reply to patina)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/23/2007 8:19:00 AM

noyeh

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Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings fellow slaves,

Honestly in noyeh's humble opinion. NO not all Women wanted to be slaves on gor. I believe though that all Women wanted to be female on gor and in real. In the books if a Free woman of gor really looked at the life of a slave and saw how hard it would be then I am sure she would raise her nose up to being what that slave was. There was some aspects of slavery I am sure that appealed secretly to the Free Woman but I highly doubt a Free Woman would want to lower her standards if she was a high caste FW. If she did this could mean a possible life of hard slavery such as working in the fields if need be or working the kitchens.

Now for the lower caste? I doubt she would want to be a slave of a pheasant. Her life is already hard but would be harder still. She would probably be rationed to how much she was fed because her life would only be secondary to the pheasants family because they are probably poor and have a poor life and have to manage their meger earnings and food. However if becoming a slave would better her circumstances of living I am sure there was a few that would jump upon becoming a slave. Not all slaves had it bad because it was a life of chance. If you lucked out and got a good Master your life could be very sensual and glamorous or you could find yourself in some kind of pit slinging sleen poo. All depended on the type of owner the girl might get.

Think about it. If we all had a window and actually peeked through it what would we see? slaves sitting around doing nothing? No actually we would see different levels of slavery and different levels of slave duties. Ranging from what looks like a harem to field hands. slavery real slavery is not a pretty sight. Could any of us slaves here on the forum honestly say we would survive on a real gor? Probably not many of us. We might think we could. But honestly how many of you could handle a metal tipped slave whip?? I am sure that a lot of us would not like it very much. There are those that say they could. But I seriously doubt it. Well maybe for a while. But after awhile when the new wore off and it got old. I think a lot would change their attitudes or minds. Being a Free on Gor is much easier than being a slave. slavery is not about comforts And we have a lot of them in the real-world. Why does anyone not think slavery did not work for long in the real world? Sure it adds conviences for others. But does it add any for slaves? No. Otherwise it would have survived and everyone would have been happy.

< Message edited by noyeh -- 5/23/2007 8:20:27 AM >

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noyeh-JtS-fg

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/23/2007 8:20:22 AM

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Hello patina

Here is purely my point of view based on my life and my experiences. It in no way reflects the community at large. If someone happens to resemble my comments so be it, if not, oh well they have their own lives and experience to fall back on.

To get it out in the open right from the get go, I have NO BDSM experience. I have never been nor will I ever desire to be a Domme. It is not my kink. I have always strived in my life to be a woman, in totality. Neither ashamed of my womanhood or be made to feel less because of it. To me Norman allowed me to see that the many facets of womanhood are not one dimensional, it is filled with startling colours and a myriad of possibilities. Women can be many things and being told to be cast in only one role, with only one path is impossible for any human being. We are not all the same or equal. If any look to a garden lets say, the beauty is not derived from only one type of flower, but rather it is the combination and mixtures of many colours, textures, flowering times ect that take a plant and make it a work of art. While all may strive to be roses, if every flower was a rose, a rose would be mundane. Trying to make a rose into a daisy is futile, why not love the daisy for what it is, and the rose for what it is. That to me is a fundamental principle in the Gorean philosophy.

When Norman created the legal barriers of freedom and slavery he was contrasting facets of womanhood, the good and the evil. He was also using the free bitchy woman as an illustration of being pressed into a mold created by cultural norms, which as he often stated try to make a rose into a daisy, only frustrating the rose and stunting it, in essence creating an unnatural reality. While not discussed in the books, woman have another biological calling, that of motherhood. While Norman never addressed it, it is something that those of us who live in reality must. Can a woman deny herself this very natural biological urge and still remain content to live as a book depicted slave? Logic dictates (as does nature) no. See sexuality and the freedom gained from it is only one fragment of a total woman, other areas must be addressed if we are to remain true to the original fundamental element of the philosophy.

Norman indicated more then once, women are both free and slave. Some might gravitate more towards one side or the other, others will gravitate in parts of their lives towards one side or the other while leaning towards the other side in other aspects of her life. That is the beauty of diversity. In my own life, after stripping everything down I have found that I can very much be a slave to a man, totally and completely if only figuratively. That side of me does cry out and beg to understood and accepted, yet, the other part of me also sees myself as able to take on many aspects of freedom, and embrace them as my own. While some who see only lines, roles and stagnant possibilities deny this, others, like myself embrace this totality, this freedom of full and utterly complete expression of total womanhood. See lines, rules, protocol and all that other good stuff created by Norman in his series is just that, a creation of man. While it is wonderful we can place a tidy label on ourselves, labels are generally incomplete unless we broaden the label so much as to obscure the original meaning behind it. We here on Earth have, if we look at it.

In answer to your question, most if asked want “slavery” with the consensual attached to it, in essence saying I want many of those elements but I still want freedom of choice. That is not book depicted slavery. When asked most women at some point in their lives also want children, and to be fulfilled as a mother, that is not part of book depicted slavery either. What does this suggest? Hum perhaps we only yearn for elements, concepts that are part of this total woman package, in the absence of a label for this we pick one role over the other, twist it, and call it something it really isn’t. See for me, free woman means something entirely different then how most use it even in the Gorean community. I am a free woman, because I am free to be a total woman. I don’t have to be a rose to be happy, or the daisy, I am very content in being what ever it is I will ultimately become, even if it is just a violet.

Jahna

_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to patina)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/23/2007 8:30:36 AM

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Well, if ya go by the polls, the "dangerous" guy wins hands down. So at least, as a fantasy, I bet there's a fairly universal fantasy about the "taken and owned" thing, but there are influences that stop women when it comes to living it like: fear, social pressure, and definition (the guy you thought was dangerous turns out to be abusive)

As a fantasy, sure. Hell, there's a number of women I have run across that their real attraction to gor was this kind of fantasy (after all, it's one thing to have a fantasy about being raped, taken forcefully, or whatever versus the reality of these situations). In reality, women would like to feel they have some choice OR power OR at least input.

Are there really women waiting around, hoping they will be abducted off the street and forced into a life of being chattle? I really doubt it as anything but fantasy. And I have not personally run across a woman that was in this state myself.... I've run across a lot of females with varying degrees of submissiveness.

Edit: I remember reading somewhere that JN himself believed that all women had qualities of both FW and slave. And in all fairness, if you go by ancient slavery, many of those people could actually win their freedom, that slavery for them was more like indentured servitude.

< Message edited by Vanatru -- 5/23/2007 8:48:00 AM >

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/23/2007 8:33:26 AM

edana

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Hi patina,

Your question brought up something I have been thinking about as time marches on while I am in collar. Want vs. need. Do women really "want" to be at the whim of another, or, do they recognize that they "need" to be there.
Personally, I don't 'want' to be anyones slave. I rather like doing exactly what I want to do. I realize that some people may gasp, and say "ohh what a horrible thing for a slave to say!" But it's a truth that many women will recognize within themselves.

I have been perterbed of late reading the boards and seeing all the "If you were a real Gorean Master..." and "If you were a real Gorean slave"

In my opinion, in order for M/s to be 'real' for anyone it has to start with the need. The need to be controlled, and the need to control, Once that need is there, then you need a health dose of actual mastering by the person who needs to be in control, which in turn leads to real submission.

The transverse, is a person who wants to be a slave, or wants to be a Master,but has no real 'need'. It turns into a play act, and the M/s dynamic rarely lasts.

Just my outtake...

_____________________________

In service,

edana

"Discipline turns talent into ability"

(in reply to patina)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/23/2007 8:35:13 AM

imthatacheyouhav

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Hmmm...having been an Earthling all my life i'd have to say i doubt all "earth woman"...*God that cracks me up* probably don't want to be slaves...and i'm sure some do....

_____________________________

*if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything*
**collared July 22 2007 by LordKen**

(in reply to Vanatru)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/23/2007 12:28:58 PM

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I strongly agree with edana. Her points underscore how and why I and my slave ended up in each other's lives.

Tim

(in reply to edana)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/23/2007 2:23:17 PM

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Good afternoon edana,

You knowwwwwwww.....you just answered more questions i have with one simple statement. Thank you.

Hope you are enjoying your day,

~smilezz~

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�*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,-:* �

(in reply to edana)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/23/2007 7:57:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jahnaca

, I am very content in being what ever it is I will ultimately become, even if it is just a violet.

Jahna

Greetings Jahnaca,

pasha absolutely loved your post...it was the most beautiful description she has read about Free Women and being woman in general ~

edited for spelling

< Message edited by pashafewj -- 5/23/2007 8:06:21 PM >

_____________________________

far-sæla,
pasha

“How does one become a butterfly?" she asked. "You must want to fly so much that you are willing to give up being a caterpillar.”

(in reply to Jahnaca)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/23/2007 8:05:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: edana

Want vs. need. Do women really "want" to be at the whim of another, or, do they recognize that they "need" to be there.
Personally, I don't 'want' to be anyones slave. I rather like doing exactly what I want to do. I realize that some people may gasp, and say "ohh what a horrible thing for a slave to say!" But it's a truth that many women will recognize within themselves.

Greetings edana,

This girl would like to present herself as a woman who wants to be slave, who freely choses to be at the whim of another because it is a burning desire within.

pasha believes her true needs are life supporting in nature and all else is wants and desires. she also feels if she serves a Master because of her "need" to serve, she is ultimately serving herself ~

_____________________________

far-sæla,
pasha

“How does one become a butterfly?" she asked. "You must want to fly so much that you are willing to give up being a caterpillar.”

(in reply to edana)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/24/2007 12:49:29 AM

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Hi pasha,

It is good to know yourself so well :). The reality of living at and the for the whim of another person 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year..under their thumb and roof without there ever being a break( or ever doing exactly what -you- want to do) is for some of us...ummmm what is the word I'm looking for ..."hard".. even if being "controlled" so tightly is what we need. Don't confuse the need to be controlled with a need to serve they are *not* the same, some people have an incredibly deep need to be controlled, owned... and little to no desire to serve. Some people have deep burning need to serve but little desire to be actively controlled in the process.

By being owned, I am ultimately serving myself. Doing what feels *right as rain* for me. Owned is right as rain, I need that. I could take a pass on being at his whim 24/7/365..all the time. It is why I remind myself so often "Think from your knees, girl". I know, revoke my slave membership, I'm a bad, bad seed. I absolutely understand when edana says "I need this but I don't want it ."

Have a wonderful day and nice Memorial Day weekend.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pashafewj

quote:

ORIGINAL: edana

Want vs. need. Do women really "want" to be at the whim of another, or, do they recognize that they "need" to be there.
Personally, I don't 'want' to be anyones slave. I rather like doing exactly what I want to do. I realize that some people may gasp, and say "ohh what a horrible thing for a slave to say!" But it's a truth that many women will recognize within themselves.

Greetings edana,

This girl would like to present herself as a woman who wants to be slave, who freely choses to be at the whim of another because it is a burning desire within.

pasha believes her true needs are life supporting in nature and all else is wants and desires. she also feels if she serves a Master because of her "need" to serve, she is ultimately serving herself ~

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to pashafewj)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/24/2007 5:09:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: imthatacheyouhav

Hmmm...having been an Earthling all my life i'd have to say i doubt all "earth woman"...*God that cracks me up* probably don't want to be slaves...and i'm sure some do....

hehe cracking right up with you.....it's like watching a car wreck...you just can't take your eyes off it.

_____________________________

D~

Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

(in reply to imthatacheyouhav)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/24/2007 5:14:19 AM

imthatacheyouhav

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quote:

ORIGINAL: earthycouple

quote:

ORIGINAL: imthatacheyouhav

Hmmm...having been an Earthling all my life i'd have to say i doubt all "earth woman"...*God that cracks me up* probably don't want to be slaves...and i'm sure some do....

hehe cracking right up with you.....it's like watching a car wreck...you just can't take your eyes off it.

See i knew i liked you...

_____________________________

*if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything*
**collared July 22 2007 by LordKen**

(in reply to earthycouple)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/24/2007 5:53:30 AM

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Greetings..~smiles~

edana..as usual..does think you have hit the nail on the head with this path of thought, and just have to say that truely appreciates your level headed, down to earth, straight forward posts without all the wishy washy. If haven't said it before..you are a inspiration and fountain of knowledge for those in search of understanding.

With that said: On the need of being a slave. Would this still not be able to be translated as a need to be a owned slave versus a want due to the fact that this need for control and absolute just doesn't or isn't found anywhere else? Meaning like if it were..if you could get the same need met by being anything other than a owned slave..wouldn't most be doing that instead?

It is even more fine tuned than that does think because also for self recognizes that this need for control, and what comes about from that..can't or isn't truely possible unless it is by a Man. A woman or Mistress does not or can not create that same fulfillment of that need. Under the hand of a Man..anything can happen or strived for and accomplished or accepted..but it could not ever happen under a woman for me unless a Man is at the helm of it all.

Hope that makes sense and maybe you could help expound on that some.

Well Wishes
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to edana)

RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/24/2007 7:02:26 AM

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Greetings patina,

I apologise in advance for the short reply I will give. My time right now online is limited, to how I am feelng, but this topic compelled me to give at least a small portion of my opinion.

I feel all women in their heart of hearts are all slaves to men, in one fashion or another, for the simple fact that our desires, Free and slave, is to be pleasing and a comforting asset to our respected Gorean men.
Please take a look at my signiture qoute and really give it a ponder. I feel it says it all.

serve and be well,
Mistress Maahsatti

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to patina)

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