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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 10:10:41 AM   
Stephann


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From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

quote:

ORIGINAL: patina
This is more of a philosophical question do the females of Earth want to be a slave as is written in the books of Gor? 
 
It is to that my question goes toward.  I know in the book what it says but i would like to know what the Masters, kajirs, and Free think.  I do hope I have not disrespected anyone with my question or the way i formed it.
 


Short answer, 'no.' I have not even gotten through 2 pages of any of the books of Gor, I got a migraine from trying to read, so I stopped.

I am everyone's equal, on these boards and off; when I have a partner, yes, I do defer many things to him and request that he take as much as control as we agree on, etc; yet, even then, we are still equals, we are parnters, we are lovers, we are Master/slave, yet, that does NOT make me an inadimate object. I desire to be the slave that I have the opportunity to become and to grow as such. I speak in 1st person, I have 'property' (for lack of a better word), I maintain my life and my capasity to think freely and without barriers.

I have spoken with female (vanilla) friends who have read the books of Gor and they look at in a 'romantic' {carefree} light, yet, I know that if any of them tried it in r/t they would panic and things would get ugly.


Note to OP, I too right erotica, bdsm, M/s mostly, I would love to do a story exchange if you would be so inclined, please email me if you are interested.


I might be coming into this a bit late in the game, but I'll take a stab at this.

We are not all equal.  However, it's not a question of gender, as Rapture suggests.  As we have reached a technological level that didn't exist even 100 - 150 years ago, an eight year old girl might still kill twenty huge brutish men with bulging muscles using a gun.  The same girl could certainly not have done so with a sword, knife, or hammer.  Yet, while there are certainly women with sufficiant force of character and strength of will to use such a weapon, the vast majority of men (and women) do not have such a will.  Most men, when faced with a mugger with a knife, would rather hand over their wallet than risk a physical confrontation. 

So, we're drawing generalizations.  It's my opinion that most people, male or female, can be content as submissives.  Western society is heavily influenced by the service industry.  Someone else cooks our food, makes our clothes, fixes our automobile, fixes our electricity, sells us a television, installs our cable, fixes our plumbing, builds our homes, etc etc etc; all activities that 200 years ago would have been either non-existant, or inconceivable for someone not in our family to perform these actions.  Rather than making us dominant, we become dependent on others who 'know more' than we do, and we trust their judgement with everything from what brand of food is safest, to where to go on vacation, to what sort of gift our wives or husbands might like better. 

Sorry for the tangent.  Very few people are actually 'equal.'  We're not designed to be equals.  Some people will have greater strength of will, others strength of back, others strength of heart, etc etc.  The statement 'equal', rather is better expressed that we all have equal importance in the eyes of society and law.  We all have equal opportunities to find fulfillment, where we may.  We all have equal responsibilities to care for and provide for ourselves and our families.  This should never be confused with everyone having equal ability, or an expectation of equality in authority in a relationship.  Few people genuinely desire equality of authority.  Most people just  don't take time to discuss it.

Stephan


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Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 10:31:46 AM   
Rapture


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quote:


So yes, the general idea within Gor is all woman have these needs she may or may not acknowledge, she has these needs she may not even know about, in many women these needs will probably be hidden and dormant until a Man or Men release them and she reactions naturally.  It may or may not happen in a woman's lifetime, but i believe that is what is referred to with the concept of all women are slave.  It doesn't mean all women will understand, know, or acknowledge be baser needs within.  As said above, it takes a Man to feed such, and if no Man comes about, or Men, she may very well spend her life believing she is not slave. 


angel,

An excellent point.

As I have stated before just because someone has not encountered something or experienced something or something has not manifested itself as yet or ever, does not make that thing false or untrue. Merely, some are well more per se than others, or have done or experienced more and as such know what is and what is not more or less. These contentions though are routinly dismissed and really not responded to by those who have yet to go beyond what society would want us to believe or better yet want us to follow. Then again these dismissals are left without a basis to support them, which is typical, and the basis to support is left to establish the same.

Rapture

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 10:33:36 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapture
You have no basis in which supports your conclusion.
Take away government and 911 and/or the safety of the computer screen, you wouldnt be so bold, and you would be serving. <-- basis
Take away third parties that would otherwise protect or provide a plateform for your freedom, you would be serving. <-basis
New Orleans, Hurricane Katrina. I of course could relate specific events of course... but we all know what happened. <- basis
Which the trhee above contentions have yet to be EVER disproved (by the way). However, they have been ignored, and spoke around but never not once disproved.


I can disprove all of them in one fell swoop ... You have absolutely no conditional power over any of the above.

(in reply to Rapture)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 11:05:56 AM   
Rapture


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		caitlyn,

I am glad you mentioned this.

In my exemplars for my basis as stated above, those persons had but one choice, one condition to fulful, and as such the converse of what you intended is true. As such, not that I can bring down a government, et al., but surely I do know how to work within the confines of those 'rules' (which many do not) to gain the same net result that is depicted within my stated basis. Nature tends to do the rest in both regards.

So, your statement is actually incorrect as shown above, as nature is nature no matter what form of government or in the like kind would have you follow. Nature will always win; you see that even here, and without your consent or your conditions being considered, nature will win.

Rapture
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapture
You have no basis in which supports your conclusion.
Take away government and 911 and/or the safety of the computer screen, you wouldnt be so bold, and you would be serving. <-- basis
Take away third parties that would otherwise protect or provide a plateform for your freedom, you would be serving. <-basis
New Orleans, Hurricane Katrina. I of course could relate specific events of course... but we all know what happened. <- basis
Which the trhee above contentions have yet to be EVER disproved (by the way). However, they have been ignored, and spoke around but never not once disproved.


I can disprove all of them in one fell swoop ... You have absolutely no conditional power over any of the above.


< Message edited by Rapture -- 5/27/2007 11:11:17 AM >

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 11:10:38 AM   
DiurnalVampire


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Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I am just at a loss as to why on earth Rapture's response was even geared at me. Could someone explain that logic? You didnt agree with OR disagree with anything *I* said.  You just posted nonsequitor information to make yourself heard... about what exactly?

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to MySweetSubmssive)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 12:14:19 PM   
dawntreader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

Could someone explain that logic?


Greetings DiurnalVampire,
 
i don't think anyone is able to explain Rapture's logic but himself~

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 12:24:06 PM   
tangy


Posts: 124
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline 		greetings dawn,

to go off the OP question for just a min. i read in another thread where you said you use 2 names this dawn name as your free name then when you choose to be slave you use the pasha name...whats the logic behind that? so you get to choose from post to post if your free or not?

well wishes,
tangy

(in reply to dawntreader)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 12:35:03 PM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings tangy,
 
to avoid hijacking this thread, i explained myself on the support thread. i would direct you back to that explanation and if you still have a question, feel free to private message Loki (FukinTroll) and ask him about why he wishes for me to have 2 identities. As i have commited to training with him, i do not make a habit of second guessing any of his tasks for me~
 
As to the timing of your post in reply to mine about Rapture...if you thought i was being disrespectful to or about him, please note that i was not - truly, only a Master can explain themselves...don't you agree?

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to tangy)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 12:40:35 PM   
tangy


Posts: 124
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline 		greetings dawn

was just asking the logic, had nothing to do with you being disrespectful or not. not saying im some expert on being gorean but i do know that if your Master or "trainer" has you using 2 different names and acting one way then another, is it gorean? maybe yous dont even claim to be gor, i dont know, was just a question, thanks..

anyways good luck,

tangy

(in reply to dawntreader)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 12:42:28 PM   
justplainjava


Posts: 173
Joined: 2/22/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings
if it please gril would like to enterject: when making such a post like what is taught in most commuication and debate classes you avoid such as all or never, for that implies there can be no exception to the rules
do some woman feel like in the books of Gore, the answer is a possilbe yes, but to be honest this one can only speak for herself, she is at her best when she is kajira to serve to be with that is what causes this female blood to burn hot,
take care and be safe
java

(in reply to dawntreader)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 12:54:34 PM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Except that I would see these things as the result of nature.
 
Why do people desire governments? Why do they participate in terror attacks? Why do they grant freedoms ... or if that doesn't have substance to you ... how did those with freedoms now, get them in the first place?
 
They are all cause and effect ... undoubtedly caused by what influence? 

(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 1:38:41 PM   
Viridana


Posts: 754
Status: offline 		The human race consists of over 6 billion people, thereof over 3 billion women. Making blunt statements that categorizes every individual of that over 3 billion person group is in my opinion unwise.

As with many things in nature I think dominance and submission follows the Bell curve. There are probably "über-submissives" out there as well as "über-doms". But I think most of us fall somewhere there in between. I think most of us have both dominant tendencies as well as submissive ones. Some sway more to one side than other. We all have capabilities to lead and we all have capabilities to follow.  And we choose according to the situation at hand what of our capabilities we will use.

We can always find somebody that is more dominant than us or more submissive. And in general I don't think it has anything to do with gender. It has more to do with personal strenght, strenght of caracter. Those who are strong caracters can more easily gain followers of both genders if he/she wishes to do so.



(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 1:59:09 PM   
Kuldan


Posts: 52
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		Tal, Rapture.

I am quite interested in that hypothesis of yours, in regards to the human females natural disposition to be slaves. Could you do me the favor of stating it clearly, along with the scientific evidence that backs it up, not the fictional or anecdotal and thus irrelevant examples you've posted so far ?

Well wishes,

Kuldan


(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 2:00:35 PM   
Rapture


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Except that I would see these things as the result of nature.


We all are a product of nature, and as you can sit in denial of nature, "you" must adhere to it, if you like it or not. Yet, it's not the one's who sit in denial of nature or what is natural but those who count on it, and therefore use it for an end to their liking gets prize. Your result per se.

quote:


Why do people desire governments?


Most people use government to hide behind, and hence their respective liking of it, well until the same turns on them. Absent government what do you have? Nature, yet nature has always been there, yet the excuse is gone.

quote:
Why do they participate in terror attacks?


Because they can. Security is myth, even in the most tolatarian (sp) society.

quote:


 Why do they grant freedoms ... or if that doesn't have substance to you ... how did those with freedoms now, get them in the first place?


Government really doesnt grant all that much if you really want to take a hard look at it. Government tells you what to do how to do it and if you dont it is going to _attempt_ to impose itself on you. These are based on a minority of people telling you and I how things should be.  I the best example say is the interpetation of the 1st Amendment. Court after Court after Court (government) has said the 1st amendment is qualifed privilige and is not absolute among many other "rights". However, if you read it, it sounds absolute, again it isnt per government.

So again government imposes "rights" and possible "remedies" based upon not actual rights but to accomodate certain "facts", or should I say fact patterns based upon circumstance. One law is superior or supercedes the other etc.  If you really read case law you will see this to be true. There is no such thing even as equality in the law but the law does make accomodation even if the law says "equal". Thus to base your contentions on government is erroneous at best and not very good to do so.

quote:


They are all cause and effect ... undoubtedly caused by what influence? 


They? Define "They". To whom are you referring?

Rapture

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 2:30:48 PM   
Rapture


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		I will start you off here:
http://health.yahoo.com/experts/sexualhealing/1850/the-truth-about-submission-fantasies



"From: Dr. Laura Berman

Research shows that people who fantasize tend to have more satisfying sex lives. They think about sex more often, they experience a better sexual response and they are more experimental in bed.

Unfortunately, many people experience guilt about their fantasies.

They feel conflicted about the desires that surface or, worse, that feel arousing.

This is especially true in the case of submission fantasies in women. Some women worry that there is something wrong with them, that they are anti-feminist or that they are not in control of their sexual desires. Others have understandably difficult flashbacks to prior sexual abuse or assault (which 1 in 3 women will experience). However, research bears out that more than half of women have fantasies of being overpowered or taken against their will. Pelletier and Herold (1988) found that 51% of women reported fantasies of forced sex. Knafo and Jaffe (1984) found that the most frequent fantasy women experienced during intercourse was "I imagine that I am being overpowered or forced to surrender." Strassberg and Locker (1998) found that more than half of women reported engaging in a "force" fantasy."
Wouldnt they just love to have those fantasies as realities? smiles.

Then again, I'm not a fan of stats or studies because you can have a study that says the sky is pink rather than blue....


Rapture


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuldan

Tal, Rapture.

I am quite interested in that hypothesis of yours, in regards to the human females natural disposition to be slaves. Could you do me the favor of stating it clearly, along with the scientific evidence that backs it up, not the fictional or anecdotal and thus irrelevant examples you've posted so far ?

Well wishes,

Kuldan




< Message edited by Rapture -- 5/27/2007 2:41:01 PM >

(in reply to Kuldan)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 2:35:07 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Even if those numbers are correct, and...
even if every woman in the world wanted to realize all her sexual fantasies (which is HARDLY the case)...
that's still only 51%.

Not 100%.

QED, no?  This is one of those subjects that's impossible to take seriously, because if anyone REALLY believes that all women want to be slaves, there's no way to have a discussion with someone like that.  You can present a counterexample--"So-and-so is a woman and doesn't want to be a slave"--and the only response you can possibly get is something like "Well, So-and-so is just confused and doesn't know what she really wants; I know better."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapture

I will start you off here:
http://health.yahoo.com/experts/sexualhealing/1850/the-truth-about-submission-fantasies

"This is especially true in the case of submission fantasies in women. Some women worry that there is something wrong with them, that they are anti-feminist or that they are not in control of their sexual desires. Others have understandably difficult flashbacks to prior sexual abuse or assault (which 1 in 3 women will experience). However, research bears out that more than half of women have fantasies of being overpowered or taken against their will. Pelletier and Herold (1988) found that 51% of women reported fantasies of forced sex. Knafo and Jaffe (1984) found that the most frequent fantasy women experienced during intercourse was "I imagine that I am being overpowered or forced to surrender." Strassberg and Locker (1998) found that more than half of women reported engaging in a "force" fantasy."

Wouldnt they just love to have those fantasies as realities? smiles.

(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 2:41:33 PM   
Kuldan


Posts: 52
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		Where does it state that they would love to have those fantasies as realities ?

What you quoted, states exactly what was quoted - that 51 % of women have reported fantasies involving forced sex. From what do you draw the conclusion that they would like those fantasies transferred to reality 1:1 ?

And I'd strike the "because the fantasies are present, it must mean they wish it carried out, or else they would not be present" approach. That one isn't valid.

(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 2:45:47 PM   
Kuldan


Posts: 52
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		Lordandmaster - that is why I asked for the scientific evidence of his hypothesis. Anecdotal evidence counts for nothing, for either side.

If one wishes to propose a general rule that applies to the majority of a population - excluded certain exemptions from the norm - then you must come up with proof. Proof that can be generalized to that entire population - either by means of genetic / biological explanation, or by an experiment that makes plausible a generalization of such scope.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 2:46:14 PM   
Rapture


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		Of course it wouldnt say 100%.
No study on anything will say 100% of anything. Yet, then again, 3 billion women were not surveyed, and certainly it is highly unlikely even if they did have such feelings you would actually get an honest nor forthright response. However, if put into an adverse situation or in the likekind, well, that truly is the test now aint it?

Yet, with the 51% you could project numbers....  which again I really am no fan of.

Just like I have yet to experience any female to mouth off to me as they do here online but in person. Surely, of these same people who do and/or have they are surely not beating down my door to test their own theories even though I would certainly and have afforded them no excuse to do so.
Though I am curious of the good Dr's responses to my inquiries (if I get one that is).

Rapture

< Message edited by Rapture -- 5/27/2007 2:51:51 PM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 5/27/2007 2:50:41 PM   
Kuldan


Posts: 52
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		I'd already be happy with repeateable studies that are scientific and open to falsification, that are significant with a fault margin of 5 %, and show results that support your hypothesis. That is scientific evidence that will hold firm under current standards.

Edit:

"Just like I have yet to experience any female to mouth off to me as they do here online but in person." (Rapture)

Primary conclusion: They wouldn't dare
Alternative conclusion: They have no interest to travel possibly around the globe just to prove an internet person wrong that they talk to on a Gorean internet board.

My perception is, the alternative conclusion holds at least as much credibility as the primary conclusion. Suggesting that only the primary holds merit is nothing but selective ignorance of facts. In short, this style of argumentation wins you no grounds. It only makes you look silly.



< Message edited by Kuldan -- 5/27/2007 3:04:06 PM >

(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 100
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