quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

And this should be a non issue. Hugo Chavez Frias rules Venezuela. We buy their oil. Is he charging too much or something ?

quote:

Well you are not there either...so what is your point?

quote:

Did you feel this way when the right wing dictators kept the poor from voting?

quote:

Bush has assumed dictatorial powers but I do not see you ranting on about that...

quote:

what I do see you doing is fear mongering about what you think he might do.

quote:

Why do you hate a populist government?

quote:

Do you feel that ordinary people aren't smart enough to know what is good for them?

quote:

Why do you hate freedom and free elections

quote:

you are an American, why would you deny the Venezuelan people a freely elected and reelected president."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

>>> WARNING: I AM IN FULL RANT MODE <<<

 

quote:

Well you are not there either...so what is your point?

What’s my point? What’s my point?!!!!! The fact that I wasn’t there is precisely my point!!!!
You were not and I was.  So perhaps I might have a little better understanding of the situation?


Who the hell am I to judge those people and make nonsensical pronouncements about how they could have banded together?
I think you have me mixed up with another poster here.

I didn’t have to experience the fear they experienced. I didn’t have to weigh my family’s safety against the desire to vote. So I’m not going to puff myself up and act all brave and high and mighty with crap like, "they could have banded together."
The fascist did not seem to be trembling in their collective boots when they staged their little coup.

quote:

Did you feel this way when the right wing dictators kept the poor from voting?

YES! That is the difference between you and me. I am not an ideologue.
Yes you are.  Read your post it is pretty obvious.


I do not allow ideology to blind me to the evil some are doing. A dictator is a dictator. Who gives a shit what rhetoric he’s spouting to justify his dictatorship? Oh that’s right... you do!
Could you list for us the evil he has done?  I mean besides calling him a left wing dictator?

quote:

Bush has assumed dictatorial powers but I do not see you ranting on about that...

Of course you haven’t, because your ideological filter doesn’t allow you to see it.
The ideological filter you claim I have only reads your posts and comments on them in their entirety without the "creative editing" that you choose  to do.

You have already put me in the enemy camp (every ideology needs an enemy whether they be the Jews, the infidels, "right wing thugs,"or whatever). Maybe this will put your mind at ease:
You are the only one who can put yourself any place...you do so by the words you post.

President Bush is brain dead nincompoop who has allowed himself to be used as a figure head for the advancement of a right wing agenda that has led us into a illegal war, trampled over people’s civil rights, exploded the deficit, and has greatly harmed America’s standing in the world. Is that good enough for you?! As for Mister Nincompoop being a dictator I’ll just say this: I am more confident that he will be gone when his term is up than I am that Saint Hugo will be.
It is nice to finally see how you feel about the current dictator of amerika.




Which reminds me – termyn8or asked how dictators stay in power for decades if they are so bad? The answer is simple. They do it the old fashioned way: use of force.
Well I am sure you have referred to Castro as a dictator and he does not stay in power by force.  Everyone in that country has a gun and he walks through the cane fields with tons of guys with sharp machetes.  So it would seem that your simple answer is just that, a simple answer.

quote:

what I do see you doing is fear mongering about what you think he might do.

Arena’t you afraid about what Bush might do?
Bush & co. have already shown what they are going to do.  On the other hand all we have is your fear to tell us what Chavez will do.  I have asked you repeatedly what has he done that is offensive to you beside your constant rant about dictator.  You only reply that a dictator is a dictator....tell me how the people of Venezuela suffer?

quote:

Why do you hate a populist government?

I don’t. I hate dictators. I just don’t let ideology prevent me from recognizing a dictator when I see one (i.e. a man who can rule by decree).
So you are saying that anyone who rules by decree is ipso facto a bad person and a bad leader and bad for the people he rules?
In the entire course of human history is there not one case of a benevolent dictator?
Bush is the only right wing dictator that I have seen you spend any ink on and that amounts to less than a dozen lines of type while you have hundreds of posts.  So when you start calling people ideologues why is it that your hatred of dictators seems to be limited to those of the left.  In the whole world count them up how many on the right how many on the left....and you have not attacked any of the right....idiologue????

quote:

Do you feel that ordinary people aren't smart enough to know what is good for them?

Oh, this is rich! Are you fucking kidding me?! You advocate an ideology who’s very existence is premised on the belief that the ordinary people (exactly what constitutes an ordinary person?) are incapable of knowing what’s good for them (most ideologies are).
They elected him...is there some part of that that escapes you.  They returned him to power when the thugs of the right tried a coup. With that kind of power do you think they would have any trouble removing him if they became disenchanted with him?




If you truly believe that ordinary people are capable of knowing what is good for them, then why do you want to saddle them with an economic system that seeks to restrain them?
Perhaps because they voted for it.  I have asked you repeatedly to tell me how much better off they were under the previous gang of thugs but you always edit that out of your replies.


If you believe that ordinary people are capable of deciding what is in their own best interests then why are you not an advocate of the free market?
You seem to throw the terms capitalism and free market around like they were the same.  I have said more than a couple of hundred times I am all in favor of free enterprise.  I am also in for of government monopoly of certain sectors of the economy like police and fire protection, public utilities and things like that.  Venezuela before Chavez had neither free markets or free enterprise but they did have capitalism and a true dictator who was not freely elected.

quote:

Why do you hate freedom and free elections

I don’t. And you damn well know it. This is just rhetorical bullshit on you part.
Your post do not support your rhetoric.  Here we have a man freely elected and freely reelected and also returned to power after being ousted by a right wing dictatorial coup instituted by the U.S.

quote:

you are an American, why would you deny the Venezuelan people a freely elected and reelected president."

I don’t deny the Venezuelan people a freely elected government or president. I just feel sorry for them that they thought they were getting a president and got a dictator instead (oh, did I tell you? the man can rule by decree – that makes him a dictator). Why do you excuse his actions?
I do not live in Venezuela.  What the people freely choose to do is their business.

I’m still deciding if I want to go over everything else point by point.
You never respond to my post point by point... as I do yours....you edit out what you cannot refute and pull statements out of context in the hope that everyone who reads these boards will not think to look back to the original.

Knowing that it will be an exercise in futility (the ideology is never wrong), do I really want to waste my time on it?
I completely agree with you it is an exercise in futility to argue against the truth and superior logic.  So I do agree it is a waste of your time, but you are an ink junquie so what can I say.

Standing by for the obfuscations, deflections, denials, gross extrapolations, etc.
That would be found in the black ink on this post.

Peace to you and yours (ya jerk)
Name calling usually occurs when the respondent runs out of facts and logic.
TYFSASAKM
thompson


Marc2b

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Gone for the next two days. But don’t worry, I’m not letting you off the hook that easy. In the meantime, this "man with a paper asshole fighting a forest fire," would like to up classiness of the insults
I had thought you had a better grasp of the english language than to take that as an insult.  Insult was not intended, my reference was simply that you are coming to a discussion with rhetoric and no facts.  If you felt insult I do apologize for that was not my intention.

with a little Shakespeare (King Lear if memory serves):

"Thou art a boil, a plague sore, an embossed carbuncle in my corrupted blood!"
This is beneath you.
Peace to you and yours
(I’d wish you prosperity, but you’re a socialist [:)]),
Unless and until you can define a word it would do you well not to use it.  It serves only to show your ignorance.
Marc2b

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Oh lighten up you crusty batch of nature!

(thanks again to Will Shakespeare)

Still don't know when I'm going to get back to you.  Just in case your getting an wrong impressions (which you do a lot), I'm not hiding from you.  I have a chronic medical condition and when it acts up - well let's just say I'd rather be sleeping.

Peace and (sigh, very well,) prosperity to you and yours.
Marc2b

quote:


So you are saying that anyone who rules by decree is ipso facto a bad person and a bad leader and bad for the people he rules?
In the entire course of human history is there not one case of a benevolent dictator?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

First off, I appreciate the kind words regarding my medical condition. While not life threatening, it does waylay me now and then. Actually it’s the treatment that waylays me. All I want to do sleep, sleep, sleep, and then sleep some more. But I’m awake again and can feel my brain starting (begrudgingly) to function once more. Anyway, I do appreciate the kind words and want you to know that, despite appearances, I don’t harbor you any ill will... even if you do irk the shit out of me sometimes.

Now then...

quote:


So you are saying that anyone who rules by decree is ipso facto a bad person and a bad leader and bad for the people he rules?
In the entire course of human history is there not one case of a benevolent dictator?

There it is. You’re not against dictators, so long as they are your kind of dictators.
Well I can see the sleep has not helped your thought processes.  You seem more interested in arguing than you are in discussing.  If you were to do any serious research into what Chavez or Castro replaced you might get a better understanding of what I am attempting to discuss.  Do you suppose that any president of the U.S. was or is any less a dictator.  A brief survey of U.S. history might disabuse you of that notion. 
Would I trade a more onerous dictator for a less oppressive one?  I cannot imagine anyone not doing so.

This is the fundamental flaw in the human psyche that has brought us so much pain and misery throughout our history – the search for a benign parental figure who will provide us with all our needs and protect us from the boogey man.
Again this is a straw man you wish to pose which is not my position at all and I would appreciate it if you would stop misstating my position so you may hold it up as a fatuous argument.  Just read what I post and respond to it and do not make assumptions that are clearly not warranted.


The Bogey man takes on various guises of course, in your case the boogey man is a "right wing thug," or the "Uber rich." For others it may be homosexuals, blacks, Jews, communists, Michael Moore... in other words, anything that we perceive as threatening.
Common' ....get a grip...this has nothing to do with what we are talking about.  If you would but read the history of  Venezuela or Cuba you would clearly see that the "masses" are materially better off under Chavez and Castro than at any time in their history.  I fail to comprehend why you are against freedom and democracy...which these folks have in greater abundance than ever before.

Concerning perceptions – you asked why I don’t attack any of those on the right. There are two very simple reasons for this. First, how many "Pinochet was a really great guy" threads have you seen on these message boards? I can’t respond to something that is not there.
No you cannot but by the same token when someone replaces one of those fascists thugs with something a bit more benign you can only find fault....I will ask you again as I have dozens of times in this and other threads, why are you against the people enjoying a bit of peace and freedom?

Secondly, I have on various other threads made clear my position on such topics as the death penalty (I’m against it), abortion (I’m pro-choice), and homosexual rights (I favor legalizing gay marriage). Hardly the views of a right winger.
These positions have nothing to do with right wing left wing but everything to do with fairness, please do not attempt to obfuscate the question with red blue politics.


But all of this goes by the wayside in your mind and you focus instead upon the criticisms of your world view (the ideological filter).
You continually seek to use rhetoric "ideological filter" you make up words and definitions to make it seem like you are actually  discussing something.  If you would go and look up the facts then we can discuss.


You then leap to the false conclusion that if I criticize the Left, then I must be a right winger.
Only in your mind do you think I view you as a right winger.  I ask over and over again why you are against someone who brings freedom and democracy to his people in a quantity never before experienced.  Implicit in your castigation of him is an approval of what he replaced, your rhetorical denial of same not withstanding.  The man was elected and re elected unlike our own president.  Who was appointed and then in a clear fraud retained in office.  This is not just my opinion but that of many human rights groups around the world.  To deny knowledge of such is fatuous.

I say again, because I criticize one thing, it does not mean that I automatically extol the virtues of another. A mis-perception all too common in politics – and in thinking.

I do find it interesting that you use the word attack. Why do you perceive my calling Chavez a dictator (which is the proper word for someone who can rule by decree), or any criticism of the Left, an attack.
I call it an attack because that is what it is.


I believe the answer is the same reason you use terms like "right wing thugs" and "uber rich." You’ve divided the world into good guys and bad guys and refuse to tolerate any notion that your world view may be wrong.
This sounds very like you do not believe that there is good and evil.

Humanity has been engaging in the dance for a very long time and the results have always been the same
Your knowledge of the history of the human race seems to be a little lacking with this statement.  It simply is not true.

(wasn’t it Einstein who said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results).
Simplistic in the extreme.  Through out history we have seen perseverance in the face of failure often leads to success.  So when you quote someone please try to quote it in its entirety and in the sense in which it was delivered.
 

Leave the dance floor. Climb up to the balcony and look down. Take a good long hard look. You’ll be surprised at what you see.
At my age little surprises me.

As for Chavez, there is plenty to criticize. Just go to Google, type "hugo chavez"+"human rights violations" and hit enter. You’ll find plenty – if you’re willing to listen and not blithely dismiss any criticisms of "Saint Hugo" as the work of "right wing thugs" and "fascists."
You are the one who keeps calling him Saint Hugo not I.  Would it not be more academically honest to weigh his failings against his successes?
When I did as you suggested with google I could find no credible source faulting Chavez with human rights violations but I did find many from the U.S, state department and the right wing thugs (felons in flight to avoid prosecution) filing suit against him in the U.S.  People who are wanted for murder of police officers and judges that the U.S. refuses to extradite in contravention of international treaties.  So much for the rule of law in the U.S,
Now it is possible that I missed one, I just looked at the first one hundred.  So if you can find a credible source I would be interested in seeing it.

The same goes for Castro. I cannot honestly believe that you believe he doesn’t use force to stay in power.
Could you name for us which countries do not use force to stay in power.

When was the last time Cuba had a free election? What do you think would happen to anyone in Cuba who demanded a free election?
Since every man and woman in Cuba is armed it would seem to me that any time they choose to remove Castro they could.

No doubt at this point you prepared to bring up Batista again but that is entirely beside the point (as is comparing the Soviet Union to Czarist Russia). I am, however, beginning to realize that you don’t understand what I mean when I say such things are beside the point. I do not mean that the crimes of Batista or the Russian Czars should be dismissed out of hand but rather, that they are not an excuse for the current situation – two wrongs do not make a right. Ideological excuses are just that, excuses.
This just fails to pass intellectual or logical muster.  The people in Russia, Cuba and Venezuela are better off today than at anytime in their history and all you can do is carp about "he is a dictator" talk about an idiological filter. 

Power corrupts and the concentration of so much power in the hands of a single individual is not a good thing. Rights get trampled on. People get hurt. Do not be fooled by the fact that people voted for him. Even assuming that the election was fair (and the U.N saying it was does not exactly fill me with confidence),
Please tell me the name of the certifying organization that would fill you with confidence.


the Venezuelans would not be the first people to willingly hand over their power and freedoms to a father figure hoping he will smite their (perceived) enemies and solve all their problems. People voted for Hitler, after all. If you want to put your faith in "Papa Chavez" and believe that he will right all wrongs and will remake Venezuela into someone’s idea of utopia (in this case socialist) then by all means do so –
There you go again putting words in my mouth that I have not said. It is the people of Venezuela who have reposed their faith in Chavez not me.  They live there I do not.  What they choose is their business.  If they choose to have a hereditary monarchy that is their business.  They have chosen to elect and return to office, after an aborted coup that can be traced to the front door of the White house, and then reelect the man to be their president.  He has a mandate that exceeds any U.S. president yet you continue to castigate him.  All of your sanctimonious pretensions to the contrary you fail to make a case against the man...rhetoric is not fact.


but be prepared to be disappointed. I, on the other hand, will continue to cast a skeptical and wary eye upon the man
If it were but a skeptical and wary eye that you post it would be different but it is not it is a full out assault on the man in the face of the facts.  I have asked you repeatedly what you would replace either he or Castro with?  Would that not in fact make you a dictator since you seem to be saying you, who has never been to Cuba or Venezuela, supersed the will of the overwhelming majority in those countries.

– and I will continue to call a spade a spade: the man can rule by decree. He is a dictator.
He is a leader who seeks to better the lot of the majority of his constituants....and for this you castigate him.

Thanks for the patience,
peace and prosperity to you and yours,
Marc2b

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

And this should be a non issue. Hugo Chavez Frias rules Venezuela. We buy their oil. Is he charging too much or something ?

quote:

Well I can see the sleep has not helped your thought processes. You seem more interested in arguing than you are in discussing. If you were to do any serious research into what Chavez or Castro replaced you might get a better understanding of what I am attempting to discuss. Do you suppose that any president of the U.S. was or is any less a dictator. A brief survey of U.S. history might disabuse you of that notion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I rest my case.