Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (Full Version)

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mastercreeker -> Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/27/2007 9:23:53 PM)

Sorry in advance, if this upsets anybody's holiday, but I gotta vent. Was watching the Annual Memorial Day concert on PBS tonight. During the Armed Forces Medley, the Marine Corps hymn, who should I see but good ol' Jack Murtha. In the interest of full disclosure, I gotta admit that I disagree with his stand on timetables, etc. That's not the problem....in point of fact, as looney as I find his stand, I support the right to hold his position on issues (indeed, if that's what he told his constituents while campaigning, he's honor-bound to say that stuff). The problem is that he has repeatedly gone on record saying that our troops are the equivelant of terrorists. Not insinuated, mind you......said plain and clear, with only a token apology, when news people stirred a hue and cry over his comments. Am I wrong to think he was more than a little hypocritical being at an event intended as a tribute to our service personnel and their families, when he holds a toxic opinion of those very people? My sub insists he can't possibly "really believe" those statements, that it was merely political expediency to spout them. Keep in mind, I'm not questioning his patriotism, merely wondering if he should have had "a previous engagement" or something and been elsewhere. Also wondering if his days in the Marines are forever tainted by the bile he's been spewing lately? Admitting wrong, or apologizing half-heartedly just doesn't seem enough. Wondering if Lt. Calley of My-Lai fame would've been as welcome as the honorable Mr. Murtha? He too, shamed his country, gave the enemy a propaganda victory, and later apologized. Guess it helps to have no conscience.
Will bow out now and take My lumps.



Lordandmaster -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/27/2007 9:26:38 PM)

Let me guess--you voted for Bush-Cheney, right?



mastercreeker -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/27/2007 9:48:26 PM)

Yeah, I did. Not that I'm a great fan of either, just thought it was the lesser of two evils. Probably more conservative leaning, though My Dad (republican) and My Mom (democrat) always taught Me to vote the best option as I see it. Truth be told, am not crazy about most of the options available, at least above local levels. Have yet to vote a straight ticket....another lesson from the folks (they always joked about cancelling each other's vote out- but at least they voted). Yearning for the day viable....hell,real.....candidates come along.



farglebargle -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/27/2007 10:21:40 PM)

The lesser of 2 evils, is still evil.

NICE going with your promotion of Evil.

quote:


he problem is that he has repeatedly gone on record saying that our troops are the equivelant of terrorists. Not insinuated, mind you......said plain and clear


Are you merely repeating some propaganda, or do you have direct quotes to support your assertion?

And FWIW, what do *YOU* consider a squad of soldiers who PLAN and COMMIT gang-rape and murder of a 14 year old girl, like Abeer Qasim Hamza al-Janabi?

And since their Sergeant didn't shoot those animals dead when he learned of the plan, but instead JOINED THEM, I wonder if anyone in service deserves any respect, considering they permit animals like that to serve WITH THEM.

People who wear a nations flag have a duty to not dishonor that nation. I wonder if our military, is worthy of any honor, if they hide, and promote this kind or barbarism???

Or do *YOU* believe it's RIGHT for American Soldiers to gang-rape and murder children? And if you don't, then why would you neglect to consider this before you blindly support an organization?

They want respect? Let them put these animals to death for their crimes. Until them? No.




Termyn8or -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/27/2007 11:25:39 PM)

That is a good point fargster, what ever happened ? Maybe they got demoted from an E4 to an E2 and the sarge got promoted.

Funny, I never ever heard of any Nazis doing shit like that, the Bolsheviks on the other hand............

Perhaps the wrong side won.

T

Warning, repeated topics about politics is going to cause me to bring out my heavy artillery. You will lose faith in not only your country, but your fellow Man, and that is not good. I would like to bring about a positive change from here, in this sociological space, not from the bottom.

I know how 'they' are, we should all by now. I am talking bringing in documents gleaned through the freedom of information act. By their own words, they have betrayed us countless times. The proof is there.

Those Men on the battlefield are Men goddammit, except for the stray animals that wandered in. This rape and all this shit is a capital offense IMO. And the Men with honor should not be forced to stand by those animals' side.

And no matter what, there is still a fact, which does not detract from this, most who join the military do so to better their own life. Some need it psychologically, others have a very bleak future otherwise. Does that make their life worth less ? Less than the Westpoint grads who can fly a plane and are very rarely in danger ?

This whole fucking thing makes me sick. I was told that military service was mandatory in Russia (by Russians). I suspect that people got smart, and absolutley nobody enlisted voluntarily. Watch what happens to the US in the next few years. Of course Russia was under communist rule at the time, like we are now.

And if you don't think we are under communist rule, ummmmmmm, pull your head out of the sand. We are.

T



HopeLost -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/28/2007 12:06:22 AM)

i hate to say it but, America will never run out of people who will voluntarily enlist. hell they are getting shot at in the neighborhood. might as well go get shot at and paid in Iraq.



DomKen -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/28/2007 8:07:42 AM)

John Murtha is a Vietnam vet and certainly has ewvery right to attend a Memorial day concert. Also I defy anyone to present a an actual recording of Murtha calling all US forces terrorists.



LightHeartedMaam -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/28/2007 8:24:39 AM)

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"



pahunkboy -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/28/2007 9:48:56 AM)

well- aa comittie was probaly formed which then formed some subcommmitties.

will get back to you when the last drop of oil is extracted.



Level -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/28/2007 9:53:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mastercreeker

Wondering if Lt. Calley of My-Lai fame would've been as welcome as the honorable Mr. Murtha? He too, shamed his country, gave the enemy a propaganda victory, and later apologized. Guess it helps to have no conscience.


Comparing him to a murderer like Calley, is off base.



Level -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/28/2007 10:45:57 AM)

General comment:
 
I would hope that those upset with Murtha would have been at least as angry at what was done to former Senator Max Cleland.



domiguy -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/28/2007 11:28:31 AM)

Kind of interested to see the quote where he at the minimum alluded to our troops as being terrorists....I couldn't find anything.



Level -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/28/2007 11:31:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Kind of interested to see the quote where he at the minimum alluded to our troops as being terrorists....I couldn't find anything.


I couldn't either, Tupac, errr, DG. [:D]



Real0ne -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/28/2007 11:50:04 AM)

fast reply


and what if the troops were illuded to as terrorists?  Are we not practicing the fine art of imperialism, or is imperialism doublethought into being saviors somehow now a days?

i have to laugh everyone says its wrong that we went in but at the same time want to think we are some how the saviors of iraq!



DomKen -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/28/2007 1:16:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Kind of interested to see the quote where he at the minimum alluded to our troops as being terrorists....I couldn't find anything.

From what I've been able to find its because he never said it. Looks like the Rove/Cheney/Limbaugh smear machine is going after him over him calling for a troop withdrawal.



Level -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/28/2007 1:27:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

fast reply


and what if the troops were illuded to as terrorists?  Are we not practicing the fine art of imperialism, or is imperialism doublethought into being saviors somehow now a days?

i have to laugh everyone says its wrong that we went in but at the same time want to think we are some how the saviors of iraq!



If Murtha did not call them terrorists, it kinda pisses on the OP's point.
 
Only time will tell if we're "practicing imperialism"; I doubt that's the goal, and if it is, I doubt we'll achieve it there.
 
As for "saving" the Iraqis.... we can only give them a chance. The only ones that can truly save them, is themselves.



Sinergy -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/28/2007 3:25:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Funny, I never ever heard of any Nazis doing shit like that, the Bolsheviks on the other hand............




http://www.theverylongview.com/WATH/essays/sexrapesurvival.htm

http://www.theverylongview.com/WATH/essays/memory.htm

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1768132/posts

http://www.jhcwc.mb.ca/morrissette2004.pdf

http://www.hrw.org/women/docs/rapeinwar.htm

Let me know if you need more.

Rape and sexual predation of the "other team" is normative in war.

I am not saying it is right, just saying it happens and I cannot think of any armies off the top of my head
who did not do it.  I dont support what those soldiers who raped that Iraqi girl did. 

The one I blame, however, is the one who sent them there.

Sinergy




selfbnd411 -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/28/2007 4:31:32 PM)

Murtha is known as being one of the most hawkish and pro-military members of Congress:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Murtha

Murtha is a moderate Democrat with a relatively populist economic outlook, and is generally much more socially conservative than most other House Democrats. He is pro life, consistently receiving a 0% rating from NARAL and 70% rating from NRLC[1]; however, he supports embryonic stem-cell research. Unlike other Democrats, he generally opposes gun control, earning an A from the National Rifle Association.[8] Murtha was also one of the few Democrats in Congress to vote against the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002.

However, he is strongly pro-labor, and opposes both NAFTA and CAFTA. Like other Democrats, he opposes Bush's tax plan and Social Security privatization, and he also opposes the Federal Marriage Amendment. In 2004, He was one of only two congressmen to vote for a measure proposing reinstating the draft.[9] He is also considered more hawkish than other Democrats currently holding office.

In 2001, Murtha was a co-author (with Congressman Duke Cunningham, R-CA) of the Flag Desecration Amendment, which passed the House of Representatives, but not the Senate.

In late 2005, he led the effort of House Democrats to offer a motion to endorse language in a military spending bill, written by Senator John McCain, a Republican from Arizona and a fellow Vietnam veteran, that would forbid abusive treatment of terror suspects.



Termyn8or -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/28/2007 7:41:23 PM)

Ok Sinergy, they were as bad as anyone else, but noone has proven that they were any worse than anyone else.

If you want links, mention Sherman in Savanna, you'll have chain links around you at the bottom of the river.

From what I recall some of Hitler's generals were perverted, but he used them for their ability to make military gains. Later he tried to slowly get rid of them I heard, but never finished the job.

Rape was the death penalty. And if I am ever the ruoler of a country and one of my soldiers rapes a captive I will kill him personally. Consider it his claim to fame and I will empty my clip. All but one, into his knees and ankles and lower abdomen, possibly elbows, depends on how big the clip is. Then I will have some beer and cheese, and after a time, then shoot him in the head.

Fucking shit, this planet has gone so wrong. You conquer a country to become their leaders, if you are a leader you get to lead more. Don't world leaders understand this ? And what about the shit that happened in Iraq ? I bet the perps didn't even lose their fucking college money. AND IT WAS IN THE NEWS.

If the Nazis were caught raping, they would be killed, the US gives them a pension.

Stop the planet so I can get off here.

T



Sinergy -> RE: Political Hypocrisy 101-Memorial Day edition (5/28/2007 8:05:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Ok Sinergy, they were as bad as anyone else, but noone has proven that they were any worse than anyone else.



nor·ma·tive  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif[/image]  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image][image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif[/image]  /ˈnɔr[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image]mə[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image]tɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[nawr-muh-tiv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective



1.
of or pertaining to a norm, esp. an assumed norm regarded as the standard of correctness in behavior, speech, writing, etc.



2.
tending or attempting to establish such a norm, esp. by the prescription of rules: normative grammar.



3.
reflecting the assumption of such a norm or favoring its establishment: a normative attitude.  
I did not make a value judgement on anybody.  I simply pointed out that rape is mind-bogglingly common during wartime.  You can make the case that a soldier will be shot dead if they do rape somebody, but this will not stop it from happening.  In the same sense that having the death penalty on crimes does not make it so nobody commits those crimes.

Sinergy



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