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RE: Sexist? - 5/29/2005 7:14:32 AM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lepidoptera
Then there are the cultural norms- traditionally, men were the bread winners and women took care of housework. Perhaps cultural traditions supercede roles in the D/s lifestyle.


You hit the nail right on the head. Engaging in a D/s or M/s dynamic or enjoying WIITWD is in no way, shape or form a evolutionary step. It is simply a way to manifest a relationship but does very little for gender dynamics.

I have seen what Em suggests about Male dominant/female submissive patterns. They are very common. But I'm very glad to see they are not exclusive. I have a good friend of mine who is a female sub who earns way more money then her dominant ever could imagine. The great thing is that they live in a partnership and he is not insecure about this one bit. Being Dom didn't make him this evolved. Many years of introspection and self-awareness did.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lepidoptera
And let's not forget that there is STILL a gender wage gap. Women do not earn as much money as men. Perhaps it's acceptable to get gifts from a sub who earns more money than you, but not if they are less well off than you, and male subs just make more money than female subs!


My boy actually earns less money then me. Then again, he is 4 years younger then me and still making his way through the ranks. He gives me little gifts all the time. They aren't huge in value and I would never want him to do that because I know he has his own set of financial obligations. The most beautiful gift my boy can give me his smile. And I say this sincerely.

That said, I've never understood the demanding of the tribute. I have my suspicions that it has something to do with taking advantage of desperate men. No woman who truly loved a man would require a tribute from him. Equal contribution, sure. Love and devotion, sure. A trinket on a regular basis? Come on. Money can't buy love.

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Sexist? - 5/29/2005 2:14:46 PM   
MzBerlin


Posts: 378
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		Wow! I think everyone has made good points. I think that the desire to "take care of" females (submissive or not) is ingrained in us socially, and that somehow it's still prevalent in the D/s and BDSM cultures.
Perhaps the Dommes who do demand/expect tribute want to be 'taken care of' in the same way that the female submissives do. It seems that the men are still expected to 'provide' in a monetary sense.
I've always been curious about the tribute thing. I DO see it as a valid fetish and think that in certain aspects it is an act of submission. But that's another topic.
Keep the comments coming!!
B

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Sexist? - 5/29/2005 9:41:32 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

Lordandmaster already summed up (for me) why male doms treat female subs 'gently' (going in for the perceived opportunity). Perhaps female doms don't feel the need to do that with male subs because, after all, they're two-a-penny (according to what i've read here).


Because of this statement...is why I said what I did. Also, in my opinion which is only my personal opinion. I don't consider anyone a dom unless I consider them a good dom.

Too many people label themselves yet have no clue. However in person I don't know any fem doms at all. Just fem tops.
I don't know if I'm being clear or not. It has been a long weekend. We've been on death watch with one of our cats. So if I'm not please ask me to clarify. I'm sure after a little sleep I'll make more sense.

(in reply to ElektraUkM)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Sexist? - 5/30/2005 4:51:03 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

quote:

Lordandmaster already summed up (for me) why male doms treat female subs 'gently' (going in for the perceived opportunity). Perhaps female doms don't feel the need to do that with male subs because, after all, they're two-a-penny (according to what i've read here).


Because of this statement...is why I said what I did. Also, in my opinion which is only my personal opinion. I don't consider anyone a dom unless I consider them a good dom.

Too many people label themselves yet have no clue. However in person I don't know any fem doms at all. Just fem tops.
I don't know if I'm being clear or not. It has been a long weekend. We've been on death watch with one of our cats. So if I'm not please ask me to clarify. I'm sure after a little sleep I'll make more sense.



You are being clear. But at the same time I'm not sure I understand the distinctions you make. To me, a Dom/me is a top in a D/s relationship (or wanting to be). What makes a good Dom/me is a very subjective thing. I think we can agree on a handful of traits of what makes a good Dom/me but there is a lot to be left up to interpretation.

In any case, I think we can both safely agree that dominants need to be caring and nurturing of their submissives.

As for your kitty, you have my sincere sympathy. I know how distressful that can be and I'm sorry you have to go through that.

- LA

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Sexist? - 5/30/2005 6:55:12 AM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

Do YOU think that male and female submissives are treated differently or viewed differently within the community? Do you think this may have something to do with how society views gender role?

Yes and yes. I have to agree with what appears to be the consensus that it's predominantly because of society instilled conditioning. The coddle factor certainly comes into play. Lam touched on a valid point as well, since there appear to be so many male subs, they may have simply put themselves into the disposable class, since they are so easily replaced due to the sheer numbers of them available, the need to "be nice" to them is diminished. I personally hold no preconceived differences to submissives based on sexual bias, but that is no doubt very difficult for some, mostly male dominants I would guess (just an observation on my part, not necessarily a fact), to get past. When it comes to advice or referencing some"ones" particular situation, in the perfect world I guess their sex should be taken out of the equation..but I guess that's just another hurdle to get past.

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(in reply to MzBerlin)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Sexist? - 5/30/2005 8:24:21 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
In any case, I think we can both safely agree that dominants need to be caring and nurturing of their submissives.- LA

Hmmm, well I think a dominant needs to care for the submissive insofar as making sure they can be useful or at least functional in the real world.

As far as beyond that and nurturing- that depends on the specific dominant and I don't think there's any expectations built-in.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Sexist? - 5/30/2005 8:29:55 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

But at the same time I'm not sure I understand the distinctions you make. To me, a Dom/me is a top in a D/s relationship (or wanting to be).


See, in my mind a dom and a top are two totally different animals. A dom is someone who wants more than play. They want a deeper connection. A top is sokmeone who just wants to play and say see you later. The person playing with them is lucky if they are a "good" top and even get aftercare before they disappear.

This is going on my opinion not of online people because clearly you cannot judge someone you've never met. But on real time people I've met and am friends with.
Watched over the year's.
Where a dom could also be considered a top in a D/s relationship, they also do much, much more than just top.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Sexist? - 5/30/2005 11:53:37 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
My boy actually earns less money then me. Then again, he is 4 years younger then me and still making his way through the ranks. He gives me little gifts all the time.

You go girl! If he's adorable, and generous it matters less what money he makes, because no matter what he makes, he's shown a willingness to share all that he is and has with you... It's not about money.
quote:

That said, I've never understood the demanding of the tribute. I have my suspicions that it has something to do with taking advantage of desperate men.
- LA

Not many women already in love with the man ask for tribute I don't think... I mean if she needs to at that point, she needs to learn why she loves a cheapskate, lol.
I think tributes are not necessarily bad because they can show intent sometimes, and end jerking around by online "predatory types."
What happens sometimes: I explicitly state in my profile that I'm not interested in married men, men outside of the United States, or men with girlfriends; so when I get an email saying how wonderful I am, and they want to serve/be my slave in any manner I choose (which to me means can you top me for free and not tell my wife/girlfriend?), I respond with my paypal account is... I have yet to get any service from those devoted Mo Fos, LOL. M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 5/30/2005 12:38:28 PM >

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(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Sexist? - 5/30/2005 3:30:13 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
In any case, I think we can both safely agree that dominants need to be caring and nurturing of their submissives.- LA

Hmmm, well I think a dominant needs to care for the submissive insofar as making sure they can be useful or at least functional in the real world.

As far as beyond that and nurturing- that depends on the specific dominant and I don't think there's any expectations built-in.


True. I guess it's a question of style. But at the very least, we can agree on "respecting and looking out for the well being of their submissive"?

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Sexist? - 5/30/2005 3:35:14 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

But at the same time I'm not sure I understand the distinctions you make. To me, a Dom/me is a top in a D/s relationship (or wanting to be).

See, in my mind a dom and a top are two totally different animals. A dom is someone who wants more than play. They want a deeper connection. A top is sokmeone who just wants to play and say see you later. The person playing with them is lucky if they are a "good" top and even get aftercare before they disappear.


Then I guess I might fit in both the Domme and the Top category. Because with some people it's just play and with others it's a deeper connection. Just a my mother is a mother to me, she is not everyone's mother, but she is "a mother", but she is more then just "a mother".

I don't fit any label all the time. What I do know for sure is that I have a dominant personality and more often then not, I like to run the show and be on top. And I do respect the people who are close to me and I look out for their well being. So I guess, in the eyes of some, I have been a good Domme.

- LA



_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Sexist? - 5/30/2005 3:40:43 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
My boy actually earns less money then me. Then again, he is 4 years younger then me and still making his way through the ranks. He gives me little gifts all the time.

You go girl! If he's adorable, and generous it matters less what money he makes, because no matter what he makes, he's shown a willingness to share all that he is and has with you... It's not about money.

Yeah. He's 28 and just climbing his way up the ladder the good ol fashioned way by working hard. I know he has the talent and the ambition to go far. He already further along then most in his graduating class.

And not to sound corny, but his sweet kisses are worth millions!
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
quote:

That said, I've never understood the demanding of the tribute. I have my suspicions that it has something to do with taking advantage of desperate men.
- LA

Not many women already in love with the man ask for tribute I don't think... I mean if she needs to at that point, she needs to learn why she loves a cheapskate, lol.

True! Which is why I make sure I make my own money. Never do I want to be in a position where I depend on someone (and I'm not talking about sharing the cost of living).
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I think tributes are not necessarily bad because they can show intent sometimes, and end jerking around by online "predatory types."
What happens sometimes: I explicitly state in my profile that I'm not interested in married men, men outside of the United States, or men with girlfriends; so when I get an email saying how wonderful I am, and they want to serve/be my slave in any manner I choose (which to me means can you top me for free and not tell my wife/girlfriend?), I respond with my paypal account is... I have yet to get any service from those devoted Mo Fos, LOL. M

Well you are calling their bluff. I've done that before. It's part of our wickedness ;)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Sexist? - 5/30/2005 5:15:19 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I don't fit any label all the time.


Just as I don't fit the submissive behavior a lot of the time. Even the mods here have told me I can handle my arguments better than most so, why help me out? I just plain don't need help.
Even people I've met here on the board's in person say they see me as dominant. To me that pleases me. I'm only submissive to my dom. He is the only one who See's that side of me. That is the way it should be. I sure should not be the world's submissive. That would only cheapen the relationship I have with him.

We are all unique and that is what makes us special.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Sexist? - 5/30/2005 7:04:00 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		For me it has nothing to do with who sees me as what. If people say they see me as submissive, great, if they see me as dominant, great, if they see me as vanilla, fine.

Because what they generally see is what they are looking for, what they generalize and what they stereotype. Dominance is generally stereotyped as strong while submission is stereotyped as weak, that's simply the truth of it.

They likely won't see who I *am* until they really get to know me. Because very few people have only stereotypically dominant traits or only stereotypically submissive traits.

If the entire world looked at me and said "marvelous slave" it wouldn't change one thing between the Owner and I.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Sexist? - 6/6/2005 3:20:46 PM   
Tristan


Posts: 330
Joined: 5/31/2004
Status: offline 		In addition to the desire to protect submissive women, I think there can also be a desire to treat submissive men with contempt. I've seen several talk shows with men discussing physical abuse by their wives. The result has always been laughter and very little simpathy. I see no reason why the bdsm community would be any different than society in general.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Sexist? - 6/6/2005 4:10:56 PM   
Raphael


Posts: 263
Joined: 5/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

See, in my mind a dom and a top are two totally different animals. A dom is someone who wants more than play. They want a deeper connection. A top is sokmeone who just wants to play and say see you later. The person playing with them is lucky if they are a "good" top and even get aftercare before they disappear.


I think they're two different things, but not necessarily two different people - that is, 'top' and 'bottom' are roles in sadomasochism, a top is a sadist, a bottom a Masochist. D/s is a different dynamic entirely. Most Dominants are probably also tops, and most submissives are probably also bottoms, but it's not always so - some D/s people are quite uninterested in sadomasochism, and many sadomasochists are not D/s oriented.

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Sexist? - 6/6/2005 10:05:03 PM   
SteelBondager


Posts: 86
Joined: 5/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

See, in my mind a dom and a top are two totally different animals. A dom is someone who wants more than play. They want a deeper connection. A top is sokmeone who just wants to play and say see you later. The person playing with them is lucky if they are a "good" top and even get aftercare before they disappear.


I think they're two different things, but not necessarily two different people - that is, 'top' and 'bottom' are roles in sadomasochism, a top is a sadist, a bottom a Masochist. D/s is a different dynamic entirely. Most Dominants are probably also tops, and most submissives are probably also bottoms, but it's not always so - some D/s people are quite uninterested in sadomasochism, and many sadomasochists are not D/s oriented.


I'm both a top and a dominant. I top my slave (where I'm called a "dominant" or "master"), but I also top people I'm not in a D/s relationship with. It would be inaccurate to call me a "dominant" in these situations.

Not to confuse anyone, but I'll also occasionally bottom when I'm learning a new technique or I meet someone who's really skilled at something and I want "my turn". It's part of learning and has nothing to do with my orientation.

< Message edited by SteelBondager -- 6/6/2005 10:06:07 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Sexist? - 6/6/2005 10:22:51 PM   
SteelBondager


Posts: 86
Joined: 5/29/2005
Status: offline 		(I just realized my last post had nothing to do with the topic.)

I don't know that it's as sexist as it's conditioning. You might love purple people (I know I do), but if most purple people continually spit on you after saying hello, you are probably going to prepare yourself to be spit on every time you meet a purple person.

None of us are perfectly open-minded and prejudice-free. I think the point is that we do our best to try. It's better than beating ourselves up about it and never trying to change our behavior.

(in reply to SteelBondager)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Sexist? - 6/7/2005 5:44:35 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raphael
that is, 'top' and 'bottom' are roles in sadomasochism, a top is a sadist, a bottom a Masochist.

Just to say- that's not always true. Some tops aren't sadists, some bottoms aren't masochists, some tops are masochists some bottoms are sadists.

This is part of why I always say "If you can imagine it, it exists"

(in reply to Raphael)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Sexist? - 6/7/2005 11:16:46 AM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBerlin
Do YOU think that male and female submissives are treated differently or viewed differently within the community?


Yes. I see it all the time both online and in meatspace.

quote:


Do you think this may have something to do with how society views gender role?


Yes and I'd say the 'discussion' around this is pretty obvious so I'll leave it to others

(in reply to MzBerlin)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Sexist? - 6/7/2005 2:57:57 PM   
asissyforher


Posts: 228
Joined: 5/20/2005
From: iowa now..maybe move soon.
Status: offline 		i feel yes, ladies are differently treated than men...not just here, in forums, but even in chats.
i went to 'a' place on irc once, as a female name as a sissy and was treated much more nicer by dommes and, men than as a male name.

go figure.

thank you
asissy

(in reply to MzBerlin)
Profile   Post #: 40
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