RE: when does a boy become a girl? (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/7/2007 4:37:30 PM)

Youre absolutely right NeedToUseYou (wish you had an easier to type ID!)

Whilst I wouldnt like to think it would affect things - I know damned well that I couldnt live with someone below a certain level of education. I know damned well I couldnt live with someone who didnt conform to my idea of what good manners, morality and so on is. I know damned well I couldnt live with someone who was anything less than pleasant and good natured. I know damned well that I couldnt live with someone that I didnt find physically attractive. And all of that is a very narrow parameter indeed.

And youre right too in that I would have to fit someone else's overall parameter - and thats really where things become difficult for me, because aside from a tiny minority, most want either a male or a female, not someone who is neither or both (even bisexuals seem that way), as a pre-requisite to "finding someone attractive".

Now, here's a confession to really boil over the pot of bullshit. I'm TS - but I dont find many other TS people attractive in general, nor even acceptable in their adopted sex. There are a few whom I've noticed, but to be clear, its because they are indistinguishable from the natural sex that I've found them attractive. I tend to think that this is a very small minority indeed, but I'm convinced that subject to the other criteria, it would not bother me at all what their past might have been, should I be of interest to them. Appearance, yet again, is the prime factor at work even in me, who ought to be preaching against it perhaps.

E



Sinergy -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/7/2007 5:04:59 PM)

 
I posted about something I read the other day in, I believe, Discover, which might have some relevance to this thread.

The topic was basically about the genetic or in utero predisposition towards homosexuality.  There is a high percentage change that a male with an older male brother will end up homosexual.  Every additional brother doubles that percentage chance. 

In order to discount nature, his study included children born of the same mother but raised in different households.  Apparently, this percentage chance does not vary whether they are raised together.

There was one gene marker which seems to be common to homosexual men, but it is also found in some non-homosexual men.

The scientist posited the idea that having this genetic marker, and being born to a mother whose immune system has already primed itself to deal with (secrete various hormones in defense) a male fetus and it's glandular secretions, could trigger this genetic marker to flip over to being homosexual and/or cause gender identity issues from birth onwards.  In other words, the brain codes itself during it's formation in utero as gender A or gender B, without bothering to look between it's legs to see what parts it was born with.

Secondly, in cases where a baby is born a partial or full hermaphrodite, neo-natal surgeons generally look between it's legs and determine which surgery to use to determine what universe the child is raised in.  I imagine this might be a problem because of the brain wiring may not coincide with the private parts the doctors decide to give the child.

I personally see the term "gender confusion" as being rather arrogant and condescending towards people who fall outside the generic.  People of whatever sexuality in my experience do not seem to have much confusion about their sexuality. 

It is everybody else who seems confused.

Sinergy



petdave -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/7/2007 5:13:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Lucy is now over 18 and has had breast augmentation already and is line for SRS in the near future too.
(snip)
(no pun intended)
Still though, Lucy had problems with relationships. Despite being to all effects a girl, guys shied away once they knew her past. The impression I got from this, and from my own experiences, is that no matter how one looks, moves, speaks and behaves, no matter what one does and no matter how accepted one is socially or how well one passes as female, one will always be “a bloke in a dress” when it comes to relationships, and rejected on that ground alone, regardless of any other factor. One could be the ideal partner in every way, yet one’s past will always outweigh everything else. And that applies to not only male partners, but also to female and to straight, gay or bi partners.

So the question is, can a boy ever really become a girl in the world of long-term adult sexual relationships?


Well, i would say that if someone has transitioned, and could date and enjoy sexual encounters without undue difficulty IF her "situation" were NOT disclosed, then she has become a woman.

While i don't consider myself to be especially narrow-minded in terms of gender and sexuality, i have to vote with the majority on this one and say that in terms of a sexual relationship, a penis is really a deal-breaker when it comes to accepting someone as a woman. It means that a change in gender identiy isn't a matter of "one's past", but one's present.

i understand that there's a lot more to gender identity and perception than just hardware, but... a disparity between the two can be a lot for a partner to overcome, just as it can be a very stressful thing for the individual.




Level -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/7/2007 5:19:10 PM)

Excellent, thought-provoking thread, Lady E.
 
My answer is no, adding that in no way, shape, or form should that be taken as a slam against those who think otherwise. It's simply my opinion.



Real0ne -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/7/2007 5:37:47 PM)

i did not read all the prev posts, but in a word when the brain is in that headspace, looks are only on the surface.



Vendaval -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/7/2007 7:05:57 PM)

IMO, the answer is yes, with a great deal of effort and understanding on the part
of the TS/TG/Intersex person and their loved ones and partners.



quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

So the question is, can a boy ever really become a girl in the world of long-term adult sexual relationships?

(NB - by which I mean relationship, not a one night stand for a bet or whatever!).



selfbnd411 -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/7/2007 7:20:45 PM)

quote:


So the question is, can a boy ever really become a girl in the world of long-term adult sexual relationships?

(NB - by which I mean relationship, not a one night stand for a bet or whatever!).


In a LTR, I think a boy>girl or girl>boy would have to tell their partner that they've had changes done.   I think it would be a legitimate dealbreaker to conceal that.  An xy boy or an xx girl wouldn't have to do that, so in that regard it will never be completely the same.  That doesn't mean that the boy>girl or girl>boy can't have a normal relationship, but it's not absolutely the same.



VeryMercurial -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/7/2007 7:32:10 PM)

LadyEllen, I have to say that to me, never.
If you are a boy, you can become a boy that changes into a girl.
I could never forget you were born a boy.
As long as you are happy, and find a partner that accepts you, in your world
you do become a girl.



velvetears -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/7/2007 8:39:17 PM)

When my daughter was 16 she had a group of friends she hung out with.  One of them, a guy, was really a biological female who lived as a male, very successfully too as none of her friends knew. This individual revealed the details and i can rememer my daughter coming to me and talking to me about it.  i remember telling her - as she was asking a lot of questions that "she" wasn't gay, wasn't "messed up", but that indeed male born in the wrong body.  Everyone in her group accepted him and he even went out with one of her friends.  i think younger people, this generation coming up, is a lot more accepting of diffferences then those of my generation.. just my thoughts on it. 



HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/7/2007 9:04:06 PM)

Let me pose this question; why does a genetic female get breast implants? Could it be because she has a certain image of herself and she is adjusting her body to fit that image?

Now in the case of a transgendered person is it such a stretch to imagine that transition is really just adjusting the body to fit the self-image? In her own mind that person didn't become a girl, she always was.



LadyEllen -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/8/2007 4:17:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

Let me pose this question; why does a genetic female get breast implants? Could it be because she has a certain image of herself and she is adjusting her body to fit that image?

Now in the case of a transgendered person is it such a stretch to imagine that transition is really just adjusting the body to fit the self-image? In her own mind that person didn't become a girl, she always was.


This pretty much sums it up, but only from the personal perspective of the one making the changes.

The real question is, can he become she and be accepted as she by say, a heterosexual male or a lesbian woman or a bisexual of either flavour in terms of a long term relationship?

Appearance seems to be everything in this - though even flawless appearance (I'm reminded of that game show where the beautiful young lady was revealed at the end as having been born male) is no indicator of success, if once the past history be revealed. The young lady who moments before "raised interest" in males across the country, suddenly doesnt any longer. The funniest reactions generally include such gems as "am I gay?" - of course not, the interest was due to the appearance which was a female one.

Being in transition is exactly what it says - its a phase on the road to the final goal. Every sensible TS person seems to express though, that even from a personal point of view, that phase never truly ends. And for others it seems apparent that they hold very much the same view. One asks then, whether a boy can ever become a girl, even in her own mind, let alone in the minds of others, and whether from that it is worth attempting as the most potentially destructive life change one can undertake? Yet every TS person will say yes.

Its a strange situation though. For me, I find myself dragging around what I would compare to a conjoined twin, but a shrivelled and dying one. Or better perhaps to having a second soul within me, which lingers like a shadow and occasionally revives enough to bring me crashing down in the sort of darkness I lived before. I wonder if I can ever excise that twin or exorcise that soul? After all, it had the upper hand for over 30 years, and yet is not me but a construct for social acceptance, and not a good one at that.

E



farmbound1 -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/8/2007 6:51:01 AM)

I'm enjoying reading this discussion. It is exhiliarating to see such good discourse on sexual identity vs. the gender of the body.  Isn't it great that the spectrum of the gender continuum from ultra-masculine all the way to ultra-feminine and everything in between exists so that we, who have a wide variety of sexual interests and attractions, can find another person whose mind and body appeals to us?  I have been both shunned as a man with no penis and loved as a man with a pussy.  The rejection hurts, but who am I to determine what another person wants?  I have my own preferences, too.  Because of my intersex condition I have been very interested in transsexuality as well and have dated both MTF and FTM and enjoyed sexual relations with both as well.  I have read the theories and studies on brain structure differences and I believe that male and female brains are different and that a transsexual person has a brain structure that aligns with their identity.  It's hard for people whose identity has always aligned with their body to understand what it is like to not have that.  I lived like that for the first 14 years of my life and so I can understand the feelings of having people treat you as female when you are really male inside.  It's a frustrating situation.  I'm ending this message with a link to one of the best books I have ever seen on the subject:  Just Add Hormones by Matt Kailey.  http://www.amazon.com/Just-Add-Hormones-Transsexual-Experience/dp/0807079588



philosophy -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/8/2007 7:44:00 AM)

"This pretty much sums it up, but only from the personal perspective of the one making the changes."

...but ultimately, who elses opinion matters? 




LadyEllen -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/8/2007 7:58:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"This pretty much sums it up, but only from the personal perspective of the one making the changes."

...but ultimately, who elses opinion matters? 




Everyone's. One cannot live as female if no one accepts one as female.

In terms of this thread, potential partners' opinions matter. One cannot form a relationship as a female if one is not accepted as female.

Whatever any of us think we are in our own heads, it is in our interactions with others that we are measured.

E



philosophy -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/8/2007 8:01:29 AM)

"Whatever any of us think we are in our own heads, it is in our interactions with others that we are measured."

...i have to disagree.......in fact, i think that when other people's opinion become more important to our self image than our own feelings then we have made an error. To thine own self be true.......not, to other peoples opinion be true.



LadyEllen -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/8/2007 8:07:13 AM)

Thing is though Philosophy, I can walk this earth with the total conviction that I am in fact a large black guy.

Others will disagree, and see that I am neither large, nor black, nor a guy.

So, am I correct in my delusion, or is the opinion of everyone else as to what I am incorrect?

More importantly, I am not going to be treated like a large black guy because I dont look like one. Furthermore, my attempts to act like a large black guy will be just plain ridiculous. More than likely, I will be beaten half to death for my self opinion.

The only way to be treated like or be able to act like a large black guy, is to be seen as one (or be one).

E



philosophy -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/8/2007 8:13:18 AM)

"The only way to be treated like or be able to act like a large black guy, is to be seen as one (or be one)."

<my italics>

......it is my belief that in all essential respects you are a woman LE, not because of any medical things you've been through, but because in your utter heart and soul that's who you feel you are. There are people that respond to the surface of things, as opposed to fundamental truths, but if we let those opinions guide our self image we do ourselves a grave diservice.



LadyEllen -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/8/2007 8:29:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"The only way to be treated like or be able to act like a large black guy, is to be seen as one (or be one)."

<my italics>

......it is my belief that in all essential respects you are a woman LE, not because of any medical things you've been through, but because in your utter heart and soul that's who you feel you are. There are people that respond to the surface of things, as opposed to fundamental truths, but if we let those opinions guide our self image we do ourselves a grave diservice.


Thanks

But this isnt about self acceptance - this is about whether others accept, which is something which whilst I have no control over it aside from the impression I make (exactly the same as anyone else), is irrelevant to my own conviction, and yet remains absolutely, utterly vital to the whole situation in that my ability to live as female and be myself is very much determined by others' acceptance of that status.

E



philosophy -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/8/2007 8:41:15 AM)

......arguably all of us have an aspect to our character that is not accepted by society at large. Society may even force us to hide that aspect in order to survive within it. However, if we allow that perception to influence our self-image then we are, in essence, giving up control over a part of our psyche. This is, in my opinion, unhealthy.
Be who you are, rail against the idiots, be a trailblazer......history is replete with individuals who swam against the tide......Emily Pankhurst is, perhaps, a good example. i see this issue as being far wider than whether or not one is a boy or girl........this is about fundamental issues of identity, and the only person with a right to determine that is oneself.



LadyEllen -> RE: when does a boy become a girl? (6/8/2007 8:51:30 AM)

Youre right Philosophy, but this isnt like whether one is an enthusiast for model trains or even a psychotic child killer or worse still a Star Trek fan (now that'll bring 'em running), or any other self identification that one might choose to display or conceal.

What sex someone is, is such a fundamental fundamental - its the very first thing we notice about anyone, and perhaps when passing in the street the only thing we notice about someone. Its not possible to get away from that, without putting the eyes out of everyone in the world first. And should we interact with someone, then our respective sexes as we each have identified in the other will strongly affect that interaction in all but the perfect world - even if we dont feel it does. It was only when I crossed the great divide that I found out the realities of how women are dealt with by men, and saw how women deal amongst each other in contrast.

E



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