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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 4:34:24 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Okay: killing can be taken as actively ending a life. It can mean crushing a few plant cells, stamping on an ant (something I try to avoid at all times), or indeed, ending the life of an embryo. I objected to your use of that verb because to me, it smacked of english countryside hunting, where they send their hounds out for the kill, but with your clarification, I accept your term.


This is killing kitten...

Starting the birthing process and allowing the legs and torso of the baby through the birth canal without producing the head. Once in that position, collapsing the skull and suctioning out all fluids and brain matter, then discarding the legs and torso.


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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 4:38:48 PM   
queencaliph


Posts: 131
Joined: 6/4/2007
Status: offline 		I'm still kind of new here and would like to say that this has been the most insightful thread I have read since I joined.  I appreciate everyone on both sides for the intelligent discussion.  Who would have thought that scam artists could promote such an interesting dialogue?

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 4:40:57 PM   
texancutie


Posts: 322
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline 		They will never state who they are.  It is under the terms and conditions part of their little website.  What a scam....though it appears some gullible people have sent them over 4000 dollars so far.

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 4:41:03 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Sort of how things go around here. Most of us could pretty readily agree that they're scams, but it's about abortion.. a touchy subject. Debates are bound to come about when touchy subjects are pushed one way or the other, such as in, "Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up."

Anyhow, welcome to the board.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 4:48:20 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari

Alright then let me ask you this (and I have no percentages for weighting, just that from all I have ever heard, meth is near impossible to kick)

Which is the Greater Wrong

1. convince someone to give up future reproductive options
2. conceive & birth an addicted infant / abort with some frequency


Good post.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 4:54:42 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I only wish you put your bright mind to literature, aesthetics and ethics.


I certainly hope this wasn't sarcasm, as I'd gladly run you into the ground over the insult.

This is to say, if you meant this as one might say to a woman, "I only wish you apply your obvious talents to the kitchen, now back to cooking my meal!", it would be rather insulting. Literature, aestetics, and ethics are paramount, in the intellectual world, the kitchen- preparing delicious yet relatively inconsquental things. I'm hoping you were unaware of your insult.

Should this have been meant in earnest, no; literature and aesthetics are inconsquential, and ethics are only a matter so far as they concern the practical functionings of life.


Then we obviously move in different realms. As for sarcasm... I don't believe it's something any of us ought to indulge in at this point. Somebody might get hurt.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 4:55:21 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Edit: Deleted.

Misunderstood the context of the post to which this was replying. This response was in error.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 6/19/2007 5:30:02 PM >

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 4:58:21 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplySubmissive

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You mean that men and women have a choice not to procreate before making love, but that if they find themselves pregnant after knowing each other biblically, she should have no choice but to bear the child.


yes, that's exactly what I mean.
It's not magic, you don't just "find" yourself pregnant.


Hmmmm... some women find themselves pregnant following a rape. Some women get pregnant because contraception failed. Some women who are happily pregnant find the pregnancy endangers their life... the list goes on.

So how are you going to go about it? Force women to give birth? Good luck.


Rape, incest, and life-threatening pregnacies make up at most 7% of abortions; that leaves 93%, from millions of abortions, that were done for convience.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 4:59:56 PM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline 		Hardly... you are just so very clever sometimes, as to make no sense

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 5:00:56 PM   
kitriana


Posts: 62
Joined: 5/29/2005
Status: offline 		that's the biggest crock of bullshit i've heard today. if you are "ready" to have sex, then you are "ready" to evaluate the fact that someone could get pregnant, and you are "ready" to abort, or get 2 or 3 jobs and earn the money to step up as a parent.

$50,000 my ass.. that's what loans are for if it comes down to it.

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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 5:01:35 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Then we obviously move in different realms. As for sarcasm... I don't believe it's something any of us ought to indulge in at this point. Somebody might get hurt.


Then you would say that you value fiction and art as primary tributaries of an intellectual condition? This seems to be your statement.. one I find odd. Could you explain why you would see this as such?

And, I'm glad it was meant in earnest. Petty sarcasm is a rather obnixious end for debates to come to. It did strike me as rather odd for one to consider art to be such a high calling in these days. How did this relate? (Or, rather, what did you mean by the orginial comment?)

While one might address perceived insults, it's far from taking offense to it. You can make your point- it's not going to irritate anything.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 5:03:42 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sublimelysensual
I guess my problem is, I don't think crackheads are fit to reproduce, and while I can see your point about it not being voluntary, to me, they chose to take the drug, so they put themselves in that position

I don't think that, in their current "crackhead" state they are either.  Just don't agree with the whole "enticing them to go get snipped/tied thing."
quote:

-smiles- I've enjoyed the discourse..agree to disagree and all that...-a

Indeed.....thanks much......luci

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 5:06:03 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplySubmissive

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplySubmissive

I addressed both of these. The woman should take responsability for birth control, always. As in, pills, shots, IUD, whatever.



SimplySubmissive has the universal solution to unwanted pregnancies! Put all women of child-bearing age on contraception!

From what age? From the onset of menstruation? Till when? After the menopause, just in case?

What about those that can't tolerate IUDs, the Pill or NuvaRing, or implants and injections? Do you suggest these women simply don't have sexual intercourse, since we can't rely on men?

Good god, and you are a woman!

Unwanted, unplanned pregnancies are traumatic. As are abortions. I just think it's best to avoid them both.
Obviously, you have the only valid opinion, so I will end my contributions to this thread.



Your contributions were appreciated.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to SimplySubmissive)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 5:09:09 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		FatDomDaddy, last year, I found out I was pregnant because my contraception failed. After years of being extremely careful about unwanted pregnancy, and taking all the measures necessary to prevent it, I was, thankfully, given the opportunity to take what is commonly known as the RU486 ('the abortion pill'). A French creation.

So early in pregnancy, there are no limbs. There is no brain. The embryo was that: a cluster of cells...  

Now... it made me terribly unhappy I had to self-abort. But I had no choice.

As for the reasons why, they are terribly personal: but I DO NOT see why abortion should be taboo. And I have no problem saying it was necessary for us to do what we did. Because, you see, there was two of us making that decision.

As a matter of fact, I claim out loud my right to have an abortion again if needs be... as well as for all the other women on this god-forsaken planet!

PS: I hasten to add that my father is an obstetrician and (the shame of it!) a gynaecologist, and that, as a result, I was rather spoilt in terms of sex education and contraception. But... medical science ain't ever perfect.



< Message edited by kittinSol -- 6/19/2007 5:22:55 PM >

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 5:11:00 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		One of the qualities of being bright is being able to connect things and derive things which others may not be able to see. One of the liablities of such a condition is the inability to express self to others unable to perceive such conditions.

The point's made, though I'd ask you allow me an indulgence in this whine; I find myself unable to even mention many of my points, for their arguments are incomprehensible to the target audience. I often find myself making false, petty arguments to the ends of beguiling such an audience to see a point that is true for reasons that they are otherwise unable to recognize. At times, I would take this so far as to cause one to resonate speech as little more than nodes for those who may later come to understand such points. I often believe such to be the foundation of religion- descimination of information through beguiled lesser minds for the sake of those that may come to know the cues or recognize the unusual wisdom in an otherwise mundane source. But, now, I'm ranting, to ironic synthony.

(in reply to kiyari)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 5:11:01 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Okay: killing can be taken as actively ending a life. It can mean crushing a few plant cells, stamping on an ant (something I try to avoid at all times), or indeed, ending the life of an embryo. I objected to your use of that verb because to me, it smacked of english countryside hunting, where they send their hounds out for the kill, but with your clarification, I accept your term.


This is killing kitten...

Starting the birthing process and allowing the legs and torso of the baby through the birth canal without producing the head. Once in that position, collapsing the skull and suctioning out all fluids and brain matter, then discarding the legs and torso.




I thought killing was an easily cowed Republican-controlled Congress ceding power to a morally delinquent cretin so he could invade a sovereign nation without just cause.

You say potato...

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 5:12:11 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari

Alright then let me ask you this (and I have no percentages for weighting, just that from all I have ever heard, meth is near impossible to kick)

Which is the Greater Wrong

1. convince someone to give up future reproductive options
2. conceive & birth an addicted infant / abort with some frequency


Good post.


How so? She asked which of two things is a greater wrong: for one to not abort or for one to not abort? Same two options.

No, one option is to abort OR give birth to a crack baby, OR get the parent sterilized.

"Future reproductive options" is a neat way of looking at it. "Future family options" is a neat way of looking at killing your parents and children, too. They are "options", after all.

Still, if her point had been correctly stated, I'd offer this:

Which is the greater of two evils?
-To allow a family of small children to slowly starve to death, suffering malnutrition and various diseases in a miserable existence?
-To not give up future population options?*

*Gentle way of saying: "killing the kids".

Easy to just kill things that give you problems, isn't it?

Not for me, maybe for you or others.




_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 5:15:07 PM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Rape, incest, and life-threatening pregnacies make up at most 7% of abortions;
that leaves 93%, from millions of abortions, that were done for convience.


Lies... Damned lies... and STATISTICS

How many who have abortions, fill out the "why I am doing this" forms?

Just wondering

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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 5:16:53 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Ack! I didn't realize your posts were with regards to the sterlization bit. My apologies; I took this out of context.

kiyari- Your post was a good one. I thought you were making it out about something else; I misunderstood your context. My apologies.

(Edit: To elaborate, I thought kyari's post used "giving up future reproductive rights" as "illegalizing abortion". It actually meant, as I now believe, "to have one fixed so prevent future conception"? I read this without looking back for context, so I took it incorrectly.)

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 6/19/2007 5:22:18 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 5:19:58 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Rape, incest, and life-threatening pregnacies make up at most 7% of abortions;
that leaves 93%, from millions of abortions, that were done for convience.


How many who have abortions, fill out the "why I am doing this" forms?



That was my question. 

Where exactly do the anti-abortion crowd get their information?

Sinergy

p.s.  Although, if 7% of abortions are done for medical necessity, etc., how does that correlate with the 100% of all abortions should be outlawed? 

p.p.s.  Are those 7% not covered under the technical definition of murder as bandied about by the anti-abortionists?

p.p.p.s. We have questions.

p.p.p.p.s.  We want answers.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to kiyari)
Profile   Post #: 180
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