quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

"old guard" was gay men drinking and fucking in bars, pissing on each other in back rooms and what killed it was contests, titles and the modern trappings of "leather".

Best writup about it is found in a book written by a leatherman in the late 1960s and published in early 1970s called The Leatherman's Handbook. The modern sanitized version of "old guard" makes it seem like something noble and all about formal rituals and all sorts of other modern trappings.

One thing it very much lacks is the silly fantasy of Gor and only someone desperate to try and generate status out of thin air and wrap themselves in some mythical history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
"old guard" was gay men drinking and fucking in bars, pissing on each other in back rooms and what killed it was contests, titles and the modern trappings of "leather".

Best writup about it is found in a book written by a leatherman in the late 1960s and published in early 1970s called The Leatherman's Handbook. The modern sanitized version of "old guard" makes it seem like something noble and all about formal rituals and all sorts of other modern trappings.

One thing it very much lacks is the silly fantasy of Gor and only someone desperate to try and generate status out of thin air and wrap themselves in some mythical history.

Yes, Michael, there was plenty of pissing, fucking, fisting, poppers and back alley posturing.  Some of my mentors in leather lived during those times, and the stories were buried with them.  But they also did talk about the subculture of men for which leather meant more than just a new raunchy way to get off.  Was the entire leather community like that? Of course not.  The "Mr. Bensons" were a fantasy.  But your "dismissal" of what I consider to be an important part of my (and your) history is not an accurate portrait either.

Title contests are a whole other topic, and while I personally believe they have outlived their usefulness--the community has proved itself to be quite adept at charitable fundraising and education, two of the key purposes titleholders served for many years, I would argue that the internet is far greater the culprit for the decline of the "glory days."  I don't believe Larry Townsend put the blame of the decline of the leather community on the shoulders of the sash bashes.

Today any troll with a credit card can buy themselves a whip, call themselves a Master, and "cybertop" slaves on the web. (I have not, and still do not, understand the whole "cyberplay" thing.)  I can't stand seeing tourists in the dungeons, and I don't like how "visible" the leatherworld is.   I've been in the leather community for just over 20 years--a drop in the bucket compared to many of my friends--and I was astonished at how the BDSM community changed once internet, cell phones and chat rooms came into view.

Someone claiming to be the real "Old Guard" today--unless they are in their 70's...is obviously not. They are instead embracing the tenets of Old Guard, just as those who follow1950's households but are not of that era, but are following what that time represented.   Gor is fantasy.  The world which gave us the Old Guard did exist in the physical flesh, and wherher you agree with what it stood for or not, it is leather history. So give it the respect it deserves. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy
Yes, Michael, there was plenty of pissing, fucking, fisting, poppers and back alley posturing.  Some of my mentors in leather lived during those times, and the stories were buried with them.  But they also did talk about the subculture of men for which leather meant more than just a new raunchy way to get off.  Was the entire leather community like that? Of course not.  The "Mr. Bensons" were a fantasy.  But your "dismissal" of what I consider to be an important part of my (and your) history is not an accurate portrait either.

Title contests are a whole other topic, and while I personally believe they have outlived their usefulness--the community has proved itself to be quite adept at charitable fundraising and education, two of the key purposes titleholders served for many years, I would argue that the internet is far greater the culprit for the decline of the "glory days."  I don't believe Larry Townsend put the blame of the decline of the leather community on the shoulders of the sash bashes.

Today any troll with a credit card can buy themselves a whip, call themselves a Master, and "cybertop" slaves on the web. (I have not, and still do not, understand the whole "cyberplay" thing.)  I can't stand seeing tourists in the dungeons, and I don't like how "visible" the leatherworld is.   I've been in the leather community for just over 20 years--a drop in the bucket compared to many of my friends--and I was astonished at how the BDSM community changed once internet, cell phones and chat rooms came into view.

Someone claiming to be the real "Old Guard" today--unless they are in their 70's...is obviously not. They are instead embracing the tenets of Old Guard, just as those who follow1950's households but are not of that era, but are following what that time represented.   Gor is fantasy.  The world which gave us the Old Guard did exist in the physical flesh, and wherher you agree with what it stood for or not, it is leather history. So give it the respect it deserves. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

"old guard" was gay men drinking and fucking in bars, pissing on each other in back rooms and what killed it was contests, titles and the modern trappings of "leather".

Best writup about it is found in a book written by a leatherman in the late 1960s and published in early 1970s called The Leatherman's Handbook. The modern sanitized version of "old guard" makes it seem like something noble and all about formal rituals and all sorts of other modern trappings.

Yes, Michael, there was plenty of pissing, fucking, fisting, poppers and back alley posturing.  Some of my mentors in leather lived during those times, and the stories were buried with them.  But they also did talk about the subculture of men for which leather meant more than just a new raunchy way to get off.  Was the entire leather community like that? Of course not.  The "Mr. Bensons" were a fantasy.  But your "dismissal" of what I consider to be an important part of my (and your) history is not an accurate portrait either.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I suppose we're on opposite sides of this, frederich.  It's precisely due to the promotion of education that such title runs have a greater place in our community than ever before.  Without them, and the events they are associated with, what's left?  The very same folks who populate the net who attempt to fool the new and the young.

You do realize that our generation is pretty much over.  Shoot, if I weren't such a fool from a computer technology standpoint, I probably wouldn't even belong to it, Myself.  Have you ever sat back and thought to yourself how confusing it all must be?  If there was no visible leather community, how would folks know where to find the good information?  Those tourists that you speak of, I give them more credit than people who just create accounts on sites like this or just surf the web.  In a sense, we were tourists once, too.

You have to have some compromise in Michael's case.  Not all of his experiences with leather folks have been positive, so I can't blame him for his perspective.  He's not quite so cynical in real life.  Not in all cases.

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ORIGINAL: LanceHughes