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The "gift" of submission - 6/6/2005 1:44:27 AM

pathfinder58

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It appears to me that many 'newbie' subs think that being a submissive suggests that they have something "special" to offer: their submission to a dominant. I think NOT!
Submission, like dominance is about who a person is. As such, a submissive has nothing more special to offer than a dominant. If a submissive and dominant find happiness, great. But neither submission or dominance is a "gift". It is simply a statement of a personality trait, nothing more or less. Unless you're a wannabe, wish I could but can't,
won't, or "I'm totally confused what I'm doing here". If anyone cannot be honest with themselves, they most certainly will not be honest with anyone else.
I consider myself to be a sensual and patient dominant. Willing to commit the time, intellect, knowledge, and direction necessary to further the relationship, assuming there is something central to bring the two individuals closer together. OTOH, I refused to be topped from the bottom, or tolerate any other attempt to undermine what I am: dominant. I appreciate strong submissives. Women who are self-sufficient, leaders, and independent who are also submissive. I rarely have experienced any problems either training them, or accepting them as submissives. Primarily because I respect their individuality to express part of their personality on the one hand, and their overwhelming desire to satisfy their needs on the other.
It also seems to me that subs automatically declare the need for honesty. Great, lets start with your needs. Be honest about them. No need to be pretentious. Simply state what you wish, and let the rest respond accordingly.
Of course if this were simply an issue of sub integrity the whole issue could be put to rest quickly. Unfortunately it isn't. There are too many wannabe doms out there as well.
Who lie, decieve, manipulate, and will do whatever they think is necessary to attain their goal. Whatever that may be. And while submission may not be a gift, it is definitely NOT
an invitation to abuse!
Has anyone heard of the concept of RESPECT? If so, why is it so lacking when so-called doms and submissives make contact?

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RE: The "gift" of submission - 6/6/2005 2:34:15 AM

Focus50

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From: Newcastle, Australia
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Nice rant and I generally agree....

I do, however, disagree with your opening sentence in that I think submissives certainly have something "special" to offer the dominant me but, no, it's not a gift. No matter how attractive a vanilla woman may be, if she's not submissive, I'm not interested - so being submissive is to have something special to attract my attention.

But of course it's not a gift as it comes with strings attached - she submits with a fair and reasonable expectation of getting something equally unique and desirable in return - domination. But if through inexperience, naivity, dumb luck, plain stupidity or whatever, she submits to one of those phony doms you speak of, then her submission becomes a gift as he doesn't have the eqivalent Dom "gift" in return or exchange.....

Respect is another matter....
The biggest downside of the net is that the unscrupulous can be virtually anyone they want in almost total anonymity and without even leaving home so the potential for lies and abuse increases exponentially. Just add a bit of research to an unscrupulous demeanour and you have a "dom" ready to create havoc with the unsuspecting and especially inexperienced subs online. And all Doms pay when those subs then become resentful and suspicious of anyone who identifies as Dominant as a consequence....

People are the same everywhere.... In any given group, there'll always be some selfish arsehole who spoils things for everyone else. And the reason seems to be nothing more than because they can....

Focus50.

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RE: The "gift" of submission - 6/6/2005 4:32:38 AM

FuriousAngel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pathfinder58

It appears to me that many 'newbie' subs think that being a submissive suggests that they have something "special" to offer: their submission to a dominant. I think NOT!
?

I don't engage in the common tug of wars that I see unfold in the D/s community regarding such things as submission/gift, sub vs. slave, etc. so I won't get into that here. However, I did want to point out that you are referring to newbies. If I may be so bold, there is a huge amount of information, view points, perceptions, etc. that a new submissive is exposed to upon discovering this world, particularly when it's done online with so many different approaches.

It is confusing, and overwhelming to say the least. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that despite your strong feelings about it, that it might be worth taking such statements with a grain of salt and exercising a little compassion as newbies stumble around this lifestyle trying on the various theories until they find what works for them. I'd also like to add that newbies learn from others in the lifestyle. They don't just wake up and proclaim their submission is a gift.

It's information that has clearly been passed down to them by others in the community. Many in the lifestyle do believe it's a gift; and I see several profiles by Dominants who themselves, proclaim submission is a gift. Whether or not you subscribe to this idea is is your choice, however, I don't feel that newbies (or anyone) should be made to feel inferior or that they are somehow a wanna be because they don't believe the same as another.

My words are not meant as an attack or to demean your views. I have been wandering this lifestyle for five years and still consider myself rather new on the grander scheme of things. Having struggled immensely with trying to find my place and sort through the insane amount of information out there, I can't help but feel a need to say a few words on behalf of the newbies; particularly when the information you see is what is being passed on by others in the lifestyle.

You could very well be passing up a beautiful woman, or writing her off, simply because of a few words she states in her profile. For what it's worth, I too once subscribed to the theory, until I watched several others discuss it at length. As I watched such debates, and grew, I began to change my mindset. I feel 'newbie submissives' might be more receptive to your views and what you have to say if the message was delivered differently. You catch more flies with honey. *s*

< Message edited by FuriousAngel -- 6/6/2005 4:38:37 AM >

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RE: The "gift" of submission - 6/6/2005 5:21:48 AM

allyC

Posts: 778
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pathfinder58

It appears to me that many 'newbie' subs think that being a submissive suggests that they have something "special" to offer: their submission to a dominant. I think NOT!
Submission, like dominance is about who a person is. As such, a submissive has nothing more special to offer than a dominant. If a submissive and dominant find happiness, great. But neither submission or dominance is a "gift". It is simply a statement of a personality trait, nothing more or less.

There are many people (including myself) who don't necessarily believe that submissive is a blanket personality trait. In many cases, the slave or sub in the relationship might be as dominant as the day is long personality-wise but to that one person alone, they are submissive - they have surrendered.

In this case, it is something unique. It isn't like they are submissive all the time and in turn that is how they behave with their parfner but rather they are NOT submissive all the time and to that person alone they have offered themselves - vulnerably, humbly, and completely.

This is special. It is unique because no one else receives that part of them except that one person. It might not be a gift, but it can be something profoundly personal and extraordinary.

There are subs and slaves out there who have submissive personalities but there are many who do not. I think it is a common misconception that all subs and slaves are submissive people because many that I know (including myself) are not. That part only blossoms and flourishes when there is someone there who (as a result of who he/she is) inspires it.

Well wishes :)

Cav's girl
ally

_____________________________

Once I said to my owner (in a cheeky way after he had done something evil)...

"You know... Master almost rhymes with Bastard."

to which he replied, "Yup, and slave rhymes with cunt."

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RE: The "gift" of submission - 6/6/2005 6:08:00 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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Thanks Ally! Ditto.

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RE: The "gift" of submission - 6/6/2005 7:34:31 AM

Domin81

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Gift?....Nope. More like yin & yang, one is nothing without the other.

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RE: The "gift" of submission - 6/6/2005 8:45:03 AM

MstrssPassion

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A gift is something that is given with nothing expected in return & not ask to be returned. Submission is not a gift & I agree dominance is not a gift either.

What we do is 'exchange power' if one is not giving as much as they receiving they will burn out, get bored & move on. That goes for the dominant as well as the submissive.

Just a quite take on the topic.
MstrssPassion

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RE: The "gift" of submission - 6/6/2005 8:49:23 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

What we do is 'exchange power' if one is not giving as much as they receiving they will burn out, get bored & move on. That goes for the dominant as well as the submissive.

Just a quite take on the topic.
MstrssPassion

I don't exchange power personally, I transfer authority.

But I agree, if everyone in the relationship is not working to make it fulfilling for everyone, then it's pointless.

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RE: The "gift" of submission - 6/6/2005 9:53:46 AM

Lepidoptera

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Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

What we do is 'exchange power' if one is not giving as much as they receiving they will burn out, get bored & move on. That goes for the dominant as well as the submissive.

Just a quite take on the topic.
MstrssPassion

I don't exchange power personally, I transfer authority.

But I agree, if everyone in the relationship is not working to make it fulfilling for everyone, then it's pointless.

"Exchange" implies that the sub would also receive power (dictionary.com "Exchange: To give in return for something received; trade"). I GIVE power (or have it taken away- however you want to look at it.) I do not receive any power. Therefore, you could look at something you give as a gift. Personally, I consider it more of a surrender. And I only surrender for a good reason. For instance, if the other person's troops far outnumber mine, and a battle would result terrible casualties on both sides. If I don't respect the other person's fortitude, I might meet the other side's attack.

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RE: The "gift" of submission - 6/7/2005 3:00:27 PM

asissyforher

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Joined: 5/20/2005
From: iowa now..maybe move soon.
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quote:

People are the same everywhere.... In any given group, there'll always be some selfish arsehole who spoils things for everyone else. And the reason seems to be nothing more than because they can....

Focus50.

here here! i agree!

asissy

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RE: The "gift" of submission - 6/7/2005 3:51:49 PM

LadyAngelika

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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

A gift is something that is given with nothing expected in return & not ask to be returned. Submission is not a gift & I agree dominance is not a gift either.

I will agree with allyC and Em in that submission, especially when given only to one, is special. Like love. If my boy loved everyone (to the degree that he loves me), it wouldn't be so special that he loved me. Just like if he served everyone to the same degree that he served me, I wouldn't feel so privileged.

Now I want to tell you first off that I'm not sure if submission is a gift or not. If it is, so is dominance. Now, let's talk about the word gift for a moment, shall we? I'm going to use a definition of the word gift taken from Merriam Webster simply as something to consider, because gift has more then one connotations...

Main Entry: 1gift
Pronunciation: 'gift
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse, something given, talent; akin to Old English giefan to give
1 : a notable capacity, talent, or endowment
2 : something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation
3 : the act, right, or power of giving

Alright, so in general, there is the notion of talent (in point 1). So some have a gift when it comes to submission, of course! But not all, that's for sure ;)

Now more seriously, there are the notions of selfless giving (in point 2) where I would debate that there is nothing "selfless" about submission. In this sense, it makes it sound like submission is charity work. Unsexy huh? I think this is probably what the OP was protesting about.

And then there is the notion of the act, right and power of giving (in point 3) which brings me back to my original point. One who submits chooses who they submit to. And that is what makes it a gift to the one they have chosen to submit to.

So I would only say that submission is a gift if we were defining gift as the act, right or power of giving.

- LA

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