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RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 11:42:29 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
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To me it's common sense. I still haven't learned anything that is transferrable. For example, I can be trained that a dominant likes cream and one sugar cube in his coffee. He trained me this way. Is this universal and transferrable? I say no, because different people have different likes/dislikes. I don't understand the value of a training relationship. I think training only works within a specific relationship dynamic. I still hold the thought that one person can't train me for another, unless the other tells him what he wants. And to me that's a dom too lazy to train me himself, no thanks.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

Post #: 81

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 11:46:51 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
Lame metephor, I know, it's too early and I've been without coffee for 10 days. Grrrrr

Stephan

not at all i love metaphores...espeicially ones with chocolate in them!

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 82

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 12:22:54 PM

happypervert

Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline

quote:

I suppose if things are going to be productive... Instead of everyone agreeing there is a whack of idiot/asshole trainers....

Maybe instead... we can express qualities of a trainer that is worth his weight in gold... instead of his weight in trash.

What I really liked about thetammyjo's first post in this thread is that she did exactly that -- she described an approach where a submissive learns about his/her own nature that can help lead to more productive encounters down the road. Unfortunately, I think that approach is unusual -- seems to me the typical approach of trainers is just at the most superficial level of teaching a submissive to jump through some hoops and then leave with the misguided impression they have learned something useful, and that is the sort of trainer that gives trainers a bad name.

_____________________________

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." . . . Mark Twain

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 83

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 3:27:35 PM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I see absolutely nothing wrong with playing casually, playing with lot of people, and even finding a mentor or trainer to help you explore. It's all more experience and hopefully those experiences will help you then make better choices in the future.

Plus I find experience to be sexy.

We can all agree there's nothing wrong with it if you want casual play. Let's just be upfront about what's happening.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 84

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 3:37:11 PM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

To me it's common sense. I still haven't learned anything that is transferrable. For example, I can be trained that a dominant likes cream and one sugar cube in his coffee. He trained me this way. Is this universal and transferrable? I say no, because different people have different likes/dislikes. I don't understand the value of a training relationship. I think training only works within a specific relationship dynamic. I still hold the thought that one person can't train me for another, unless the other tells him what he wants. And to me that's a dom too lazy to train me himself, no thanks.

In the thread I referred you to, there were skills like cooking, learning new languages, research, etc. If my owner prefers eating French cuisine so I take some classes in it (or happen to find someone within the scene that's very knowledgable about cooking french cuisine and I learn under them) then that skill is transferrable to knowing general cooking skills.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a dominant requiring their submissive to know, for instance, how to make pate because the dominant likes the taste of it, but the dominant themself doesn't know how to make a pate and has the submissive go and take a class on doing various pate's. I don't ascribe to the dominant as a teacher and coach style of d/s where all learning comes from him.

And god forbid the submissive knows how to make a pate and french cuisine and the next dominant likes having chinese food instead? At least you know how to make a pate and know a little bit more about cooking. I'm not seeing the downside.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 85

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 4:20:48 PM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I am equally interested in what subs feel are tranferrable skills that work with every dominant. I'm talking about specific skills that trainers provide them that are universal.

Why does the training have to be about a specific skill? i mean it could be, but it doesn't have to be. Why can't training be thought of in a much broader aspect. A dominant in the lifestyle, who has years of experience, can offer a newbie sub lots of experiences. If the submissive seeks out a trainer she must have some ideas of what she wants to learn. Maybe she wants to learn how to increase her pain tolerance with a specific toy that trainer is adept at using? Just one example thought of - there are many more. Myabe the newbie just wants a generalized training/teaching for a generalized idea about how things make her feel, both physically and emotionally. i don't think a trainee has to walk away with any specific skill set learned, although she certainly may if she wants to and if she finds the right trainer for it.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 86

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 6:46:59 PM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I see absolutely nothing wrong with playing casually, playing with lot of people, and even finding a mentor or trainer to help you explore. It's all more experience and hopefully those experiences will help you then make better choices in the future.

Plus I find experience to be sexy.

We can all agree there's nothing wrong with it if you want casual play. Let's just be upfront about what's happening.

Maybe I'm too old (I'm only 37 folks) but when I first joined the meatlife BDSM community no one I knew of was looking for the ONE RELATIONSHIP. It was expected that you would learn from many people regardless if you were top or bottom, dom or sub. Asking someone to teach you flogging or to flog you at a party wasn't seen as any sort of relationship beyond that time you spent together.

It is entirely possible that I only hung out with folks who wanted to learn as much as they could and get as much experience as they could.

I see so much discussion of finding THE ONE on this webcommunity that it makes my head spin. Of course I read a lot of posts too from folks who are lonely and sad and questioning their own desires because THE ONE hasn't come along yet. Sometimes it makes me want to shake people and say "Get out and play".

I don't hang out in the vanilla world that much in terms of discussion matters of a similar nature but those folks I do talk to don't seem as hung up on the idea of finding THE ONE. Maybe it's just the company I keep and if so thank the Divine I keep it cause this mantra would drive me nuts.

I know, I know: short drive.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 87

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 6:49:43 PM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I am equally interested in what subs feel are tranferrable skills that work with every dominant. I'm talking about specific skills that trainers provide them that are universal.

Why does the training have to be about a specific skill? i mean it could be, but it doesn't have to be. Why can't training be thought of in a much broader aspect. A dominant in the lifestyle, who has years of experience, can offer a newbie sub lots of experiences. If the submissive seeks out a trainer she must have some ideas of what she wants to learn. Maybe she wants to learn how to increase her pain tolerance with a specific toy that trainer is adept at using? Just one example thought of - there are many more. Myabe the newbie just wants a generalized training/teaching for a generalized idea about how things make her feel, both physically and emotionally. i don't think a trainee has to walk away with any specific skill set learned, although she certainly may if she wants to and if she finds the right trainer for it.

That's what people who have come to me and been accepted by me for training are looking for: a safe general introduction so they can learn more about themselves.

I've also had people approach me about specific things, like white line knife play or to discuss a Ds situation. But I don't see that as training because it's either very specific or more mentorlike in that I'm a sounding/questioning board.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 88

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 7:36:45 PM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I don't hang out in the vanilla world that much in terms of discussion matters of a similar nature but those folks I do talk to don't seem as hung up on the idea of finding THE ONE. Maybe it's just the company I keep and if so thank the Divine I keep it cause this mantra would drive me nuts.
I know, I know: short drive.

Honestly, I can understand that although it does not necessarily have to be THE ONE. It can be many things that people want to experience on a level that precludes casual players....or whatever you want to call them. Like I keep saying, whatever people find comfort in is fine with me.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 89

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 8:07:35 PM

justheather

Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

To me it's common sense. I still haven't learned anything that is transferrable. For example, I can be trained that a dominant likes cream and one sugar cube in his coffee.

Is this really what it's all about for you, Katy? Because that isnt the impression Ive gotten from out interactions on and off line.

I let the submissive part of myself fall asleep for a long, long time...and it was someone who might refer to himself as a trainer (although I doubt he would use that term) who helped me to take off that tourniquet and awaken the part of me I had denied the emotional equivilent of food and oxygen for a long time. It had absolutely nothing to do with cream and sugar in his coffee and Michael may be surprised (disappointed?) to learn it had nothing to do with him getting any sex, either.

But if it had had to do with those things...what difference would it make to anyone aside from the two of us...the two people who met and explored and benefitted from our interaction?

I guess Im just one of those really really extremely rare non-stupid (who knew that was a rare thing?) submissive women who happened to meet the ever-elusive ..01 percent non-asshole dom who was willing to share some really amazing and life-changing experiences with me.

Did we have a formal "training" relationship where I said "Please train me" and he said "Ok"? No. But we interacted in what was a clearly circumscribed relationship for what was mainly my benefit -- not that he didnt feel some sense of satisfaction as well. So, to read that this "isnt productive" "cant be done for any purpose other than wanking" etc etc, well, that comes as a little bit of an insult. Kind of like the nay-sayers might feel if I were to insist that the only reason they didnt think it was possible to have a legitimate, deep and poignant series of interactions with someone outside of a D/s partnership was because they werent capable of or open enough to (or whatever) interacting on the same sort of deep and spiritual level as I. And that would be quite an assumption (and an inappropriate one, at that) for me to make, would it not?

< Message edited by justheather -- 6/25/2007 8:33:32 PM >

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 90

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 8:27:06 PM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

Now that sounds like a very good deep friendship. You discussed and learned from each other in nonsexual, nonplay ways that stayed platonic and that is fantastic. How could I or anyone else dispute the nobility of such a relationship? If only all such trainer/sub relationships were this way.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to justheather)

Post #: 91

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 8:27:29 PM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

first off, i haven't read the whole thread but i am gonna throw my two cents in here...and try and make it short and sweet
as someone on the bottom end of the spectrum, i find that the most helpful trainers to me, are other submissives...because when i want a training situation, i can go, learn the service whatever it may be and continue looking for "the one" or "the someones" in my case for this reason...they are submissive...they don't appeal to me for a long term relationship...i don't know about everyone else but, this is what works for me...and i saw some mention learning about your pain tolerance...there are plenty out there just looking for casual play and the relationship exists for the 10 minutes to 2 hours that the scene happens...nothing more...i don't have to know their motivations or aspirations or whatever 'ion you can think of...i have to know that they are gonna respect my limits and that i will be unharmed..hurt but not harmed...

(in reply to justheather)

Post #: 92

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 8:39:01 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Noah,

Thank you very much; you are a pleasure to read.

Knight's Kyra

You're welcome, Kyra.

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 93

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 8:41:48 PM

amiciaN

Posts: 228
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I don't hang out in the vanilla world that much in terms of discussion matters of a similar nature but those folks I do talk to don't seem as hung up on the idea of finding THE ONE. Maybe it's just the company I keep and if so thank the Divine I keep it cause this mantra would drive me nuts.

I know, I know: short drive.

I'd have to back up to only be nuts.

_____________________________

NChaka's amicia

I have never been lifted so high as when I kneel at His feet.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 94

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 8:47:54 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

To me it's common sense. I still haven't learned anything that is transferrable. For example, I can be trained that a dominant likes cream and one sugar cube in his coffee.

Is this really what it's all about for you, Katy? Because that isnt the impression Ive gotten from out interactions on and off line.

I let the submissive part of myself fall asleep for a long, long time...and it was someone who might refer to himself as a trainer (although I doubt he would use that term) who helped me to take off that tourniquet and awaken the part of me I had denied the emotional equivilent of food and oxygen for a long time. It had absolutely nothing to do with cream and sugar in his coffee and Michael may be surprised (disappointed?) to learn it had nothing to do with him getting any sex, either.

But if it had had to do with those things...what difference would it make to anyone aside from the two of us...the two people who met and explored and benefitted from our interaction?

I guess Im just one of those really really extremely rare non-stupid (who knew that was a rare thing?) submissive women who happened to meet the ever-elusive ..01 percent non-asshole dom who was willing to share some really amazing and life-changing experiences with me.

Did we have a formal "training" relationship where I said "Please train me" and he said "Ok"? No. But we interacted in what was a clearly circumscribed relationship for what was mainly my benefit -- not that he didnt feel some sense of satisfaction as well. So, to read that this "isnt productive" "cant be done for any purpose other than wanking" etc etc, well, that comes as a little bit of an insult. Kind of like the nay-sayers might feel if I were to insist that the only reason they didnt think it was possible to have a legitimate, deep and poignant series of interactions with someone outside of a D/s partnership was because they werent capable of or open enough to (or whatever) interacting on the same sort of deep and spiritual level as I. And that would be quite an assumption (and an inappropriate one, at that) for me to make, would it not?

I think you are a very nice looking woman....And you seem thoughtful and intelligent as well....I know you have your point of view on your relationship as to what transpired between you and your trainer....I'm sorry but I'm not quite buying it. I wasn't there and of course you were and you have every right to say that I am wrong....I just wonder what exactly was your friends motivation for helping you?

I am a typical guy, I have studied them and I have hung around guys all of my life.....I think many women who view men as being their friends are fucking wrong...It is rare to have a relationship with a women that is solidly based on friendship.....Many a sick demented man has befriended a woman in the hopes that one day when she lets down her guard or is distraught or maybe a bit too intoxicated....I will be waiting and be her knight in shining armor!!! And plunder her castle and ass.

I am sorry and it is not meant to pick on you....But I honestly believe there is something possibly more here than you might be capable of seeing.....That sounds much more shitty than intended but I believe it to be 100% accurate.

_____________________________

(in reply to justheather)

Post #: 95

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 8:51:52 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

I realize there are some who will say they had a "trainer" who didn't end up playing with them or TRYING TO, but I'm willing to bet Michael's 99.9% is pretty close. Hey, semantics as I said, if you have fun with what you do, more power to you. Training, advising, casual, suddenly decided the trainer was the one for you, or whatever.

I don't get this prudery which seems to keep cropping up in these conversations about training.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "play"--the term doesn't resonate very strongly with me. Still, I presume that having sadomasochistic interactions, sexual and otherwise, will tend to fall under that heading for you. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You seem (again, correct me please if I'm wrong) to be implying pretty strongly that training which involves such "play" is most likely to be unethical--or something.

I just don't get it. If you go to someone for training in boxing and he boxes with you, has he crossed some ethical boundary?

If he is supposed to be training you to negotiate and he involves negotiation in the training, is this wrong? If your cooking teacher joins you in the kitchen to create and consume delectable treats, is he an asshole too?

Can you, Steel--or anyone--explain what sort of hyper-conservative, puritanical, pleasure=sin point of view from which it is "wrong" for two consenting adults to engage in what you call play just in case it happens to be a training or mentoring relationship? Or is it okay for the trainee and only wrong for the trainer?

And once again, please, if I have mischaracterized things please explain so that I can understand.

Thanks.

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 96

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 8:55:01 PM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

You need to upgrade the quality of your friends. my mom had a saying, lay down with dogs, you come up with fleas. If you surround yourself with that quality of men than that is going to be your persepctive on them, you need better friends.

i have had probably more male than female friends and never was taken advantage of or "plundered" when i was vulnerable. All the men i allow in my life have been men of integrity and honor, i wouldn't ALLOW it any other way.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 97

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 9:02:55 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Noah,

quote:

Can you, Steel--or anyone--explain what sort of hyper-conservative, puritanical, pleasure=sin point of view from which it is "wrong" for two consenting adults to engage in what you call play just in case it happens to be a training or mentoring relationship

Once again Noah, you are twisting this whole thing around to suit your stance. I am all for casual play. It is the equivalent of saying that young women need to have casual sex or one night stands with you before they seek out a real relationship and that without it they are going to have trouble finding a real boyfriend.

But clearly you are going to cling to your opinion regardless and have yet to offer anything up of substance so I am really getting bored with this.

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 6/25/2007 9:07:44 PM >

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 98

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 9:03:07 PM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

For me, going to a trainer wasn't about gaining a skill. It was about losing some mental blocks that were getting in the way of my being able to serve completely and without reservation.

Because i had no emotional ties to the trainer i went to, i wasn't concerned about "looking bad" to him. i wasn't worried about doing something that would lesson his opinion of me, because i didn't care what his opinion of me was, like i did with my Dom/husband. This made it possible for me to feel less inhibited about doing things that i had held back from doing with my Dom/husband. i was 26, at the time, and had been a sub to my husband for 5 years, including 2 years before being married.

Oh, i did everything that He wanted but, i wasn't feeling really sure about some of it because of old messages in my head that were saying things like, "that's bad", "he won't love me or respect me, if i do that", etc. Going to a trainer helped me to reprogram my brain so that i could be much less "uptight" about what i was expected/required to do for my Dom and, that was a very huge step in allowing myself to be completely "free" in my submissiveness and that is something that has helped me to be a better submissive (in my mind, at least) and it is something that has carried over (transferred) with me from one relationship to the next.

There were other things that would have been beneficial for me, not to learn, but to improve on, that i think a trainer would have been able to help me with. It just so happens that my Dom/husband was only interested in me getting my head right and getting over my inhibitions and nothing more, so that's what i went to the trainer for and that is what i got.

____________
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

"..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
-- F. Nietzsche

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied
I am equally interested in what subs feel are tranferrable skills that work with every dominant. I'm talking about specific skills that trainers provide them that are universal.

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 99

RE: Trainers for submissives - 6/25/2007 9:20:03 PM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

Misrepresentation of what the trainer is after does bother me and the only way that can be determined is by the outcome. Since you quoted my (and Michael’s) 99.9% perceived statistic of trainers TRYING for more, I’ll also admit it could be wrong. I am sure there could be a greater percentage who NEVER TRY FOR MORE, but you have to admit the statistics seem to favor my view.

If we want to say in the middle of training that a change of mind has taken place, a realization that the trainer is who she wants or many other terms, fine, but you and I both know what has happened.

For the record, what has been described by many as trainers teaching qualities such as negotiation, loyalty or whatever is perfectly fine with me. I called that friendship above.

Again, I note your relationship as described above seems the perfect mentor/sub one to me. Also, as I said many times, if a sub wants casual play to learn how it feels to be flogged or any other facet, that is fine too. She asked for exactly that aspect. Casual play or whatever you want to call it.

If it can be said to be casual play, it does not make it less admirable. I’ve done that lots as have others here without guilt in any way.

< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 6/25/2007 9:24:25 PM >

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 100

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