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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 8/31/2005 5:44:12 PM   
Malkinius


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Greetings Celtic...

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCeltic
Iron Bear
In both cases my wife was not in my collar nor a slave but the thing that gets me is that both of them did something extremely unforgivable while I was with a termenally parent (both have passed on from cancer ). The first was having an affair with a friend of mine while I was in another state and the second divorced me while I was in yet again another state taking care of my father. Needless to say these two events compounded by the fact that all of my blood family is now gone mad me atart to think that I was wrong or more to the point broken some how. I am just now getting to the point where I am able to meditate and connect with the god and goddess but I still have a long way to go. After reading what you said in the rply to my question I realize now that I was not the one who screwed up and for that I thank you.
Blessings on your home and family
Celtic Master


You did not fail as a Master. You may or may not have failed as a husband or a man, but as you were not a Master to them you did not fail as a Master. Master and man are not the same things. Master and husband certainly are not.

Be well....

Malkinius

(in reply to MasterCeltic)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 8/31/2005 5:53:23 PM   
edana


Posts: 594
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quote:

You did not fail as a Master. You may or may not have failed as a husband or a man, but as you were not a Master to them you did not fail as a Master. Master and man are not the same things. Master and husband certainly are not.


greetings Master


just a question, is not a man ubar within the circle of his sword, regardless of whether it's a slave, or wife/FC whithin that circle? should it not encompass all?

We cannot control the desires of others, but every action has an equal and opposite reaction. one choice leads to many others... and many of those choices, are not our own to make.

such is life...

(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/1/2005 3:53:22 AM   
Kurnock


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Failure in the context of Gor in the Mastery of a slave is in general placed upon the Owner... If he can not Master a slave he would sell her off or depending on how big a pain she kill her. In this context he has not failed, it was the slave that failed. If he keeps the slave and continues to try and continues to fail, He has failed. He is to weak to part with the slave, it is she that has Mastered him in this context as it is he that desieres and not she that desires him. As with all things, there are expections to this but I believe it gives a fair overview.

I wish you well,
Kurnock

(in reply to cellogrrlMK)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/1/2005 5:40:28 AM   
Malkinius


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greetings edana....

quote:

ORIGINAL: edana
just a question, is not a man ubar within the circle of his sword, regardless of whether it's a slave, or wife/FC whithin that circle? should it not encompass all?

We cannot control the desires of others, but every action has an equal and opposite reaction. one choice leads to many others... and many of those choices, are not our own to make.

such is life...


I did not say that he might not have failed in some fashion. There was not enough information there to judge. However, Master is specific to owning a slave, nothing more. Yes, in the Gorean context, to a slave all men are Masters, but to the Free only those who own slaves are Masters.

Yes, he wife would have been within his "Circle of Steel" but that still did not make him her "Master".

be well...

Malkinius

(in reply to edana)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/1/2005 8:58:51 AM   
nella


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i would say that to take up the mantle of a Gorean man, to live a lifestyle like that, one need to do ones best, if one do ones best one have not failed, even if somthing go wrong, meerly been unlucky, but if one dont do ones best, one have filed, even if one is Master or slave.

(in reply to Malkinius)
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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/1/2005 12:40:33 PM   
MasterCeltic


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True I was not Master and yes I feel as I did fail in some way as a husband. I personally believe that is what I get for trying to lead a "normal life". I was not happy in both marrages and I now realize it was because I was lieing to myself about who and what I was. Never again will I make that mistake.
Blessings to YOU and Your Home
Celtic Master

(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/1/2005 1:44:06 PM   
edana


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quote:

Yes, in the Gorean context, to a slave all men are Masters, but to the Free only those who own slaves are Masters.


oh, i honestly didn't know this. My Master taught me that it was not the slave that made the master, it was the 'man' "A man who's natual inclination is to posess another human as property."

In other words, a man does not have to own a slave to be a master, he is a master and therefore he *might/could/would/does* own a slave.
maybe i misunderstood him in this.

In service,

edana

(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/1/2005 2:21:57 PM   
Leonidas


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Yeah, you misunderstood me in that. Have you ever, in a year, heard me refer to myself as "a Master"? Have you ever heard me say "he's a Master"? No, you haven't, becuase I don't refer to myself or other men that way. I might say "he's stacie's master" or "I'm your master", but not I'm a master.

When used to speak of the relationship between owner and owned, master is synonymous with "male owner". It's a role. When used by a Gorean slave toward men not her owner, "master" is still a role, though no longer synonymous with "male owner", but rather, "a male of the owning class". A free man, in other words. The slave addresses him as "master" as an acknowledgement that she is not in his class, but rather, in a class subservient to his.

The thing that you are correct about is that whether a man owns a slave doesn't determine whether he belongs to the "owning class". Only his peers can determine that.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/1/2005 2:23:23 PM >


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Leonidas

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/1/2005 3:59:22 PM   
IronBear


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Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL:

greetings edana....

quote:

ORIGINAL: edana
just a question, is not a man ubar within the circle of his sword, regardless of whether it's a slave, or wife/FC whithin that circle? should it not encompass all?

We cannot control the desires of others, but every action has an equal and opposite reaction. one choice leads to many others... and many of those choices, are not our own to make.

such is life...


I did not say that he might not have failed in some fashion. There was not enough information there to judge. However, Master is specific to owning a slave, nothing more. Yes, in the Gorean context, to a slave all men are Masters, but to the Free only those who own slaves are Masters.

Yes, he wife would have been within his "Circle of Steel" but that still did not make him her "Master".

be well...

Malkinius



Tal Malkinius,

There is one point I would disagree with you. “Master is specific to owning a slave, nothing more.” I have found nothing in my reading of the books to support this. In fact I would pose that if a Free Man has a house with or without slaves, where two or more Goreans abide, He is indeed a Master. Were I to extrapolate this into a community he may be referred to as the Community Administrator or under specific circumstances Ubar or the equivalent. Ok, so this isn’t a BDSM aspect but rather a point of interest. I haven’t read all my books recently and I am missing several books as well so I may well be not completely correct. I would be interested to hear your response to this.

Iron Bear
Master of the House Iron Bear



_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/1/2005 6:47:08 PM   
Sea


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A gorean man is a Master to any slave he may meet. This is not conditional on whether he happens to own a slave himself.

Peers are people I share a lifestyle with, they don't pay my taxes, put food on the table or worry about the mortgage and they certainly don't decide my status. I decide what I am, who I associate with and what beliefs I will adhere to, that is my right as a man. It is their choice as my peers to agree or disagree and for me to decide if their opinion is worth listening to.

Hey Leonidas, did you used to go by the name Magna? No sweat, just trying to sort through and figure out who is who. Never understood the name changing game, but people do it, *shrugs*.

Sea/Chuck



(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/1/2005 7:21:51 PM   
Malkinius


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Joined: 1/9/2004
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Tal IronBear....
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
There is one point I would disagree with you. “Master is specific to owning a slave, nothing more.” I have found nothing in my reading of the books to support this. In fact I would pose that if a Free Man has a house with or without slaves, where two or more Goreans abide, He is indeed a Master. Were I to extrapolate this into a community he may be referred to as the Community Administrator or under specific circumstances Ubar or the equivalent. Ok, so this isn’t a BDSM aspect but rather a point of interest. I haven’t read all my books recently and I am missing several books as well so I may well be not completely correct. I would be interested to hear your response to this.

Iron Bear
Master of the House Iron Bear


In all the books, I don't recall any cases, tho it has also been quite a while since I have read a few of them as well...there is no case where someone is called Master XYZ by another man. They are referred to as so and so's Master, or Master of slave zyx. Thus, unless Master was used to indicate the Master of a craft or trade, which it may have been. I do not have the books memorized such that I can be sure on that point. It was used only by a slave to indicate that any man was in the relation of a Master to her being a slave or to indicate the ownership of a slave. Therefor I said what I did that Master should only be used by men to indicate ownership (or the mastry of a craft, but that is not an issue here).

Be well.....

Malkinius

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/1/2005 7:27:54 PM   
smilezz


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Joined: 6/18/2004
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quote:

A gorean man is a Master to any slave he may meet.

How come? being the curious person that i am about almost everything...would you(or anyone else) please help me to understand this?
Do you consider this just within the gorean community? I happen to be an owned slave, but Thorns is the only Man who is Master to me. I am surely not well versed in most of the gorean tradition and rolls, so any information is helpfull.

Thank you for your time...

~smilezz~

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

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(in reply to Sea)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/1/2005 8:38:21 PM   
Malkinius


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greetings smilezz....

quote:

ORIGINAL: smilezz
quote:

A gorean man is a Master to any slave he may meet.

How come? being the curious person that i am about almost everything...would you(or anyone else) please help me to understand this?
Do you consider this just within the gorean community? I happen to be an owned slave, but Thorns is the only Man who is Master to me. I am surely not well versed in most of the gorean tradition and rolls, so any information is helpfull.

Thank you for your time...

~smilezz~


In the Gorean context all men have the status of Master to a slave. This is not true in the BDSM context. In practice, I would not expect a slave who was not serving Goreans to behaive this way. I would expect respectful behavior from her towards anyone or I would not consider her a slave....just a subbie brat with a fancy title. Now...I think that of most BDSM slaves anyway....until proven otherwise....but that is a whole other topic.

Think of it this way. If you are ever in a Gorean setting, use the formalities we use, just as we should use your formalities when we are in your BDSM settings. Its the old "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" thing. If your Master's ego can't handle handle you calling anyone else but him Master in any context....well...you know he will never be Gorean. <grins>

be well....

Malkinius

(in reply to smilezz)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/1/2005 9:05:01 PM   
smilezz


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Good Evening Malkinius..

Thank you for the information you supplied. I believe that has shed alot more light into my question. While i do associate in r/l with a few Gorean individuals, i just accept their way of living but have never really asked specifics about exactly 'how' it is they live and what certain protocols mean.
Again, Thank you very much for your insight....it helped.

~smilezz~

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

�*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,-:* �

(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/2/2005 3:38:32 AM   
Leonidas


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quote:

A gorean man is a Master to any slave he may meet. This is not conditional on whether he happens to own a slave himself.


If you lived on a fictional world where the presumption is that, unless you are a slave yourself, you are in the "class of owners" that would be true. You and I don't happen to live on that world, and so that isn't the presumption. You may only be included in that "class of owners" and recognized as such by girls that you don't own by being included in that class by your peers. You wouldn't be a "Master" to my slave upon meeting her until I, or someone that she knows me to accept as a peer, said so. This is a practical necessity, given that not all men where we live are like us. Not even the ones who say that they are.

quote:

Peers are people I share a lifestyle with, they don't pay my taxes, put food on the table or worry about the mortgage and they certainly don't decide my status. I decide what I am, who I associate with and what beliefs I will adhere to, that is my right as a man. It is their choice as my peers to agree or disagree and for me to decide if their opinion is worth listening to.


You certainly may be a Gorean man without my permission. That wasn't the question at hand. The question here is whether you would or should be referred to as "Master" and treated as such by a girl that you don't own. Should you be seen by her to be in the "owning class" of Gorean free men. As a practical matter, inclusion in a class is always conditioned on being accepted by your peers.

Online, it's polite (and not very risky) to give people the benefit of the doubt. You show up in a Gorean chatroom and all the girls will "yes, Master" you. Outside a chatroom, it's a little different. If you noticed in the grocery store that my girl wears a steel collar, approached her, and told her that you were Gorean, she would not immediately kneel and refer to you as "Master". She has no idea whether you are Gorean or not, just because you say so. Her master doesn't know you, and has not decided if you are a peer of his, and she may not judge that. The only people qualified to judge that are your peers (other Gorean free men). It would be presumptious, not to mention risky, for her to judge.



< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/2/2005 4:19:45 AM >


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Leonidas

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/2/2005 4:06:47 AM   
Leonidas


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quote:

If you are ever in a Gorean setting, use the formalities we use, just as we should use your formalities when we are in your BDSM settings. Its the old "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" thing. If your Master's ego can't handle handle you calling anyone else but him Master in any context....well...you know he will never be Gorean.


Opinions vary on this, I guess. My living room is certainly a Gorean setting, but I don't require those who aren't Gorean to behave as if they are there. To my way of thinking, the fact that smilezz engages in D/s with someone has no bearing at all on whether I see her as a slave. Slavery as many D/s folks understand it looks a lot more like our notion of free companionship.

Alex and his girl have been to my home. I visited him and his girl when I was in Rochester. I would have taken exception to his girls not comporting themselves as slaves in my presence. They're Gorean. SirWaveRider and his girl from this site have been to my home too. They're not Gorean, though they would like to understand how I live (the reason they were in my home to begin with). The fact that I don't care whether his girl refers to me as "Master" has everything to do with how I see her. It isn't all that important to me how she sees me.

I don't think it has a whole lot to do with Thorn's ego. He just doesn't see life from our perspective. If he did, he would probably have no trouble with his girl referring to men he considered fellow Goreans as "Master".

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/2/2005 4:14:10 AM   
Leonidas


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quote:

In fact I would pose that if a Free Man has a house with or without slaves, where two or more Goreans abide, He is indeed a Master. Were I to extrapolate this into a community he may be referred to as the Community Administrator or under specific circumstances Ubar or the equivalent.


Within his home he is a sovereign . What you are referring to is our understanding of Home Stone. It has everything to do with freedom, but nothing to do with slavery (except perhaps that slaves have no Home Stone). Being the sovereign within your domain, however large or small that may be, makes you a free man to the Gorean way of thinking. I has little to do with being a "Master", which I explained above only relates to whether you own a slave, and whether slaves perceive you to be in the "class of owners".



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Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/2/2005 4:22:05 AM   
Kurnock


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I will have to disagree with Malkinius. There are several of the books in which a Free Man does address another Free Man as Master, and a Free Woman as Mistress. In these cases the Man is a hired sword or other wise in the employee of said person. Gorean Men are very secure in their Freedom and who they are. To address another Man as "Master" is nothing more than a sign of respect from one Freeman to a Freeman in who's charge he is in. Assassins has several examples of this.

I wish you well,

Kurnock.

(in reply to smilezz)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/2/2005 4:40:03 AM   
Leonidas


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Joined: 2/16/2004
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quote:

There are several of the books in which a Free Man does address another Free Man as Master, and a Free Woman as Mistress. In these cases the Man is a hired sword or other wise in the employee of said person. Gorean Men are very secure in their Freedom and who they are. To address another Man as "Master" is nothing more than a sign of respect from one Freeman to a Freeman in who's charge he is in.


Yes, it does happen in the books. I have never known it to happen in the years that I have been living this way outside the books. There aren't enough of us for it to come up, I suspect. Most of the occurances of it that I remember in the books were people in service oriented jobs referring to their customers. The bar keep and the slaver in Outlaw are examples. If the guy who works on my boat were Gorean, he might refer to me as "Master", at least while in my employ, but that would be showing deference to a customer more than anything else. It's another way of saying "I am at your service" (at least while you're paying me).

In the more civil time of my Grandfather, you would have been referred to as "Sir" by the guy at the gas station or the man who shined your shoes. It's very similar.

Just as a side-note, I tend to refer to every man I meet as "Sir". As in "thank you, Sir" and "good morning, Sir". I tend to value civility and respect more than most, I think.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/2/2005 4:48:47 AM >


_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Kurnock)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/2/2005 6:06:05 AM   
smilezz


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Joined: 6/18/2004
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Good morning Leonidas,
Thank you for all your information too!
quote:

If you lived on a fictional world where the presumption is that, unless you are a slave yourself, you are in the "class of owners" that would be true. You and I don't happen to live on that world, and so that isn't the presumption. You may only be included in that "class of owners" and recognized as such by girls that you don't own by being included in that class by your peers. You wouldn't be a "Master" to my slave upon meeting her until I, or someone that she knows me to accept as a peer, said so. This is a practical necessity, given that not all men where we live are like us. Not even the ones who say that they are.

quote:

Opinions vary on this, I guess. My living room is certainly a Gorean setting, but I don't require those who aren't Gorean to behave as if they are there. To my way of thinking, the fact that smilezz engages in D/s with someone has no bearing at all on whether I see her as a slave. Slavery as many D/s folks understand it looks a lot more like our notion of free companionship.

I put these both together because of how i answered.

After reading last night, i called a Friend who happens to be Gorean and asked him a few questions too. Along the lines of another slave calling another Man Master....He too said pretty much the same thing you have just said. I stated that Thorns is the only Man i call Master...I will also say that there are a few that are online in the past that i have addressed as Master(insert nic at the time). Whithin our community, i would not address another Man as Master....but as Sir. Is the view of calling another Master within the Gorean community something that just differs from each household? You have a slave..but until she knows that you accept another as a peer..is that Man just called Sir? or by His name?
When i happen to be in my Friends home with His slave....i interract with them on a very casual basis. I call Him Sir....i call her maria..i am very curtious as to how they live....i follow a few of their procedures...but it's because i find sitting on the floor great! not because he insists on it.

I guess i should stop typing because i am beginning to ramble a bit. I have way to much in my head and questions....more coffee and i will be good to go. *chucklez*

Have a good day Leonidas, Thank you again.

~smilezz~



_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

�*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,-:* �

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 40
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