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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/2/2005 7:21:57 AM   
Sea


Posts: 2
Joined: 8/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

If you lived on a fictional world where the presumption is that, unless you are a slave yourself, you are in the "class of owners" that would be true. You and I don't happen to live on that world, and so that isn't the presumption. You may only be included in that "class of owners" and recognized as such by girls that you don't own by being included in that class by your peers. You wouldn't be a "Master" to my slave upon meeting her until I, or someone that she knows me to accept as a peer, said so. This is a practical necessity, given that not all men where we live are like us. Not even the ones who say that they are.


Let me clarify. Point being, if a girl met a gorean man the correct response would be master, not Bob, Bill or Dave, or even Sir, depending on the man. I didn't think I needed to go futher with that one line, that it would be common knowledge a girl would be intelligent enough to know how to react in public. I stated a gorean man, not the local schumck who works behind the cash register. Who determines a man is gorean? Your property or you?

Maybe where you live strange men announce they are gorean all the time to your girl while shopping, who knows. CA is a strange and wonderful place. You say it is not for your girl to judge who is or who isnt, but by not addressing a man as master who has clearly stated he is, by her making the choice to address him as Bob, or even Sir, there is judgement there on her part.

I will take this scenerio, as silly as it is getting, one step further. A man approaches her while she is pinching mellons, notices her collar and says he is a gorean Master. Not too likely, but lets play this out. What does she do? She does what you have instructed her to, I hope. Does she address him as master? Sir?..or hey idiot? Or does she use her own judgement to determine the course of action?

How harmful is a word? By addressing him as master, is this putting her in harms way? I am not knocking BDSM but this is an issue for many who follow that line. I agree with Malk, some men can't handle their slaves calling another master, you hear it all the time from BDSM.

I don't expect my girl to kneel in the grocery store, that is a bit too much role play for my taste. I do however expect her to say yes master to a man who approaches and states clearly he is gorean. I don't see the harm if we are talking realities and not a play scene. On the same token if the man says to call him sir as he doesn't follow our beliefs and it is bothersome to him to be addressed as master by anyone but his own slave, of course she obeys his wishes. He has then stated clearly he is not gorean, so it then becomes a question of obedience to his desires.

Sea

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/2/2005 7:46:37 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Who determines a man is gorean? Your property or you?


Where she is concerned, I do. I thought I said that already.

quote:

Maybe where you live strange men announce they are gorean all the time to your girl while shopping, who knows. CA is a strange and wonderful place. You say it is not for your girl to judge who is or who isnt, but by not addressing a man as master who has clearly stated he is, by her making the choice to address him as Bob, or even Sir, there is judgement there on her part.


The only judgement that she is making is that he is a stranger, and not someone known to her master. Beyond that, it's not hers to judge. She hasn't made a choice to address him in any way. She comports herself toward him as she has been instructed to comport herself toward strangers by her master.

quote:

A man approaches her while she is pinching mellons, notices her collar and says he is a gorean Master. Not too likely, but lets play this out. What does she do? She does what you have instructed her to, I hope. Does she address him as master? Sir?..or hey idiot? Or does she use her own judgement to determine the course of action?


She says "pleased to meet you" and, if he is interested, lets him know how he can get in touch with me, if he is so inclined. She doesn't defer to him as if he were a Gorean man, because she doesn't know, and until I know, he isn't, as far as she is concerned. That isn't her judgement, that's my instruction to her.

quote:

How harmful is a word? By addressing him as master, is this putting her in harms way? I am not knocking BDSM but this is an issue for many who follow that line. I agree with Malk, some men can't handle their slaves calling another master, you hear it all the time from BDSM.


A word isn't harmful at all. However, by refering to him as "Master", just because he says so, she has in fact made a judgement (that being that she's chosen to take his word for it). Once she has made that judgement, where then does she draw the line? Is it at "alright, slave girl, here's my shopping list, finish my shopping for me", or is it at "I think I'd like you to blow me, follow me to my car now"?, or somewhere in between?

As far as my slave goes (and this is true for just about every Gorean man that I know who isn't just a chatroom commando) men fall into two categories. There are men that I know, and men that I don't. She accepts my judgement about men that I know, and behaves toward them accordingly. Men that I don't know are just strangers, regardless of what they may or may not claim to be. In that way, she makes no judgement about men at all. She just accepts my judgements. It is the only way that our way of life works here on earth outside chatrooms.

quote:

I agree with Malk, some men can't handle their slaves calling another master, you hear it all the time from BDSM.


My girls refer to a number of men as Master. They just happen to be men that I have met. They aren't strangers, in other words.

quote:

I don't expect my girl to kneel in the grocery store, that is a bit too much role play for my taste.


You and I must have differing definitions of "role-play". Role-play to me is donning a persona that isn't really you. If a man that my girl knows to be a Gorean man were to approach her, she would kneel. She isn't playing a role. She just happens to be a Gorean slave, and in the presence of a Gorean free man, she kneels.





< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/2/2005 7:58:25 AM >


_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Sea)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/2/2005 7:47:43 AM   
MasterCeltic


Posts: 27
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline
I am one that prefers that another's slave call me sir and not Master as I felt it was inapropriate for them to do so not as it made me feel uneasy or that I was being disrespectful. Guess thats the army upbringing in me.

(in reply to Sea)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/2/2005 9:19:23 AM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline
quote:

Opinions vary on this, I guess. My living room is certainly a Gorean setting, but I don't require those who aren't Gorean to behave as if they are there. To my way of thinking, the fact that smilezz engages in D/s with someone has no bearing at all on whether I see her as a slave. Slavery as many D/s folks understand it looks a lot more like our notion of free companionship.


Leonidas this is how i feel to. i am a submissive and i refer to Dominats by their name unless oterwise instructed, i would be like a free compannion if i were a Gorean becouse i am not a slave, i am under my Dom in rank, and he can order me around, use me, punish me and so on, but i can leve, i am under him yes but i am not his property, so in a Gorean setting, i would consider myself a free comannion.

(in reply to MasterCeltic)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/2/2005 10:00:42 AM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline
It seems to me that some Goreans would say you have a "fragile ego" because you "can't handle" it. I know I have been told that by some. I was new to Gor at the time, and accepted the judgement and tried to see things differently. Still, all along, and right down the line, I felt that what I was really being criticized for was my unwillingness to conduct myself in accordance with someone else's rules based on their interpretations of Gor.

Bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

quote:

Who determines a man is gorean? Your property or you?


Where she is concerned, I do. I thought I said that already.

quote:

Maybe where you live strange men announce they are gorean all the time to your girl while shopping, who knows. CA is a strange and wonderful place. You say it is not for your girl to judge who is or who isnt, but by not addressing a man as master who has clearly stated he is, by her making the choice to address him as Bob, or even Sir, there is judgement there on her part.


The only judgement that she is making is that he is a stranger, and not someone known to her master. Beyond that, it's not hers to judge. She hasn't made a choice to address him in any way. She comports herself toward him as she has been instructed to comport herself toward strangers by her master.

quote:

A man approaches her while she is pinching mellons, notices her collar and says he is a gorean Master. Not too likely, but lets play this out. What does she do? She does what you have instructed her to, I hope. Does she address him as master? Sir?..or hey idiot? Or does she use her own judgement to determine the course of action?


She says "pleased to meet you" and, if he is interested, lets him know how he can get in touch with me, if he is so inclined. She doesn't defer to him as if he were a Gorean man, because she doesn't know, and until I know, he isn't, as far as she is concerned. That isn't her judgement, that's my instruction to her.

quote:

How harmful is a word? By addressing him as master, is this putting her in harms way? I am not knocking BDSM but this is an issue for many who follow that line. I agree with Malk, some men can't handle their slaves calling another master, you hear it all the time from BDSM.


A word isn't harmful at all. However, by refering to him as "Master", just because he says so, she has in fact made a judgement (that being that she's chosen to take his word for it). Once she has made that judgement, where then does she draw the line? Is it at "alright, slave girl, here's my shopping list, finish my shopping for me", or is it at "I think I'd like you to blow me, follow me to my car now"?, or somewhere in between?

As far as my slave goes (and this is true for just about every Gorean man that I know who isn't just a chatroom commando) men fall into two categories. There are men that I know, and men that I don't. She accepts my judgement about men that I know, and behaves toward them accordingly. Men that I don't know are just strangers, regardless of what they may or may not claim to be. In that way, she makes no judgement about men at all. She just accepts my judgements. It is the only way that our way of life works here on earth outside chatrooms.

quote:

I agree with Malk, some men can't handle their slaves calling another master, you hear it all the time from BDSM.


My girls refer to a number of men as Master. They just happen to be men that I have met. They aren't strangers, in other words.

quote:

I don't expect my girl to kneel in the grocery store, that is a bit too much role play for my taste.


You and I must have differing definitions of "role-play". Role-play to me is donning a persona that isn't really you. If a man that my girl knows to be a Gorean man were to approach her, she would kneel. She isn't playing a role. She just happens to be a Gorean slave, and in the presence of a Gorean free man, she kneels.






(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/2/2005 10:47:01 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

It seems to me that some Goreans would say you have a "fragile ego" because you "can't handle" it. I know I have been told that by some.


Well, there are cliques within every group that have their own little strategies for enforcing group-think, Bob. The "you're a sissy if you don't" strategy probably doesn't belong anywhere beyond 3rd grade, but its amazing how some men (probably men with fragile egos, ironically enough) fall for it. If they can't explain their position to you without resorting to baiting you like that, their position probably isn't very well founded. All I can tell you is don't drink the kool-aide.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to DesertRat)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/2/2005 4:00:31 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Tal IronBear....
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
There is one point I would disagree with you. “Master is specific to owning a slave, nothing more.” I have found nothing in my reading of the books to support this. In fact I would pose that if a Free Man has a house with or without slaves, where two or more Goreans abide, He is indeed a Master. Were I to extrapolate this into a community he may be referred to as the Community Administrator or under specific circumstances Ubar or the equivalent. Ok, so this isn’t a BDSM aspect but rather a point of interest. I haven’t read all my books recently and I am missing several books as well so I may well be not completely correct. I would be interested to hear your response to this.

Iron Bear
Master of the House Iron Bear


In all the books, I don't recall any cases, tho it has also been quite a while since I have read a few of them as well...there is no case where someone is called Master XYZ by another man. They are referred to as so and so's Master, or Master of slave zyx. Thus, unless Master was used to indicate the Master of a craft or trade, which it may have been. I do not have the books memorized such that I can be sure on that point. It was used only by a slave to indicate that any man was in the relation of a Master to her being a slave or to indicate the ownership of a slave. Therefor I said what I did that Master should only be used by men to indicate ownership (or the mastry of a craft, but that is not an issue here).

Be well.....

Malkinius



Tal Malkinius,

Thank you for clarifying that point. Yes I agree with that, it matches my reading of the matter. I know my use of the term master in "Master of the House Iron Bear" is used in the Edwardian English text and as in the context of Master of a Lodge. I tend to see many things Gorean from an Edwardian view. Not, mind you because I am that ancient, (I'm only 60 years young and still a pup) but because I have a passion for that era.

Again my thanks



_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 9/6/2005 3:07:29 AM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1814
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline
Tal Kurnock....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kurnock
I will have to disagree with Malkinius. There are several of the books in which a Free Man does address another Free Man as Master, and a Free Woman as Mistress. In these cases the Man is a hired sword or other wise in the employee of said person. Gorean Men are very secure in their Freedom and who they are. To address another Man as "Master" is nothing more than a sign of respect from one Freeman to a Freeman in who's charge he is in. Assassins has several examples of this.

I wish you well,

Kurnock.


Yep. I will be corrected on this point. Master was used, as Leonides pointed out, by a number of men, usually merchants of one sort or another, trying to influence someone to do or buy something. What I to say is that they did not use Master XYZ to indicate slave ownership. Master was used by someone fawning on another or to show a vast social difference. Peers did not address each other as Master in the books. It was only to indicate a difference in social level/caste/status or as flattery that it was done. There may be some example I do not recall. Can you cite a quote on it where someone called a peer Master?

Be well....

Malkinius

(in reply to Kurnock)
Profile   Post #: 48
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