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Failure - in the Gorean context - 6/12/2005 4:27:50 PM   
cellogrrlMK


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I keep seeing posts referring to females being "failures as a slave" or being a "failed slave". This is always within the context of Gor, not BDSM.

I would like to know, does the term "failed Master" or anything like that exist within the realm of folks who do Gor? If yes, what is entailed with failing as a Master, and if no, why not?
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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 6/12/2005 7:18:38 PM   
ChainedAngel


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I am definitely going to keep an eye on this thread. I was discussing a topic along these lines with a couple people, but it was not in a Gorean context.

(in reply to cellogrrlMK)
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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 6/12/2005 7:32:44 PM   
cellogrrlMK


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I'm still waiting to see too ChainedAngel... 24 hits (not counting mine just now) and no response yet...... hmmmmmmmmm


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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 6/12/2005 9:01:24 PM   
DesertRat


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Yes, the term "failed master" also exists. Personally I think it has more validity than does "failed slave"...at least in the ways I have seen the terms used. Hopefully someone better versed than I in Gorean ways (Malkinius?) will come on here and give us a lucid explanation of the concepts. I know that I have committed some major blunders that, in my mind constitute failure. But I don't think the fact that our relationship ended means that my slave failed. I just don't buy that.

Bob

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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 6/13/2005 4:42:55 AM   
Malkinius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cellogrrlMK
I keep seeing posts referring to females being "failures as a slave" or being a "failed slave". This is always within the context of Gor, not BDSM.

I would like to know, does the term "failed Master" or anything like that exist within the realm of folks who do Gor? If yes, what is entailed with failing as a Master, and if no, why not?


greetings cellogrrll...

Give it a little time....I will get here. <grins> I sometimes have to do other things than spend all my time online.

Yes, the failure of a Master is also something we talk about, but not as much as slave failure. I will note that in this context, Master/Mistress and Free Man/Woman are interchangable. What is not interchangeable is the difference between someone who is Free and someone who is slave. Also, irrespective of the Gorean custom of calling anyone Free Master, in this case, a Master is only defined as someone who owns a slave.

There are three areas where Goreans consider a man capable of failing. They are as a man, as a Gorean and as a Master.

Someone may fail as a man in several ways. First would be to give up his manhood and beg to become a slave. This is why most Goreans find sub males distasteful. They are failures at being men. I will grant that such behavior is truly the nature of some men. In the rest, it is giving into the perversion that our society has perpatrated on the genders. When it is considered wrong for men to be men, where they have to be part woman, then we have as much of a problem and requiring women to be part men. Men and women are different biologically, physiologically and neurologically. A male may fail through giving up on his life....shutting down and shutting the world out. They no longer care or do. That type of failure is not limited to men, women can do it too.

Someone can fail as a Gorean. These are the people who pretend to be Gorean, usually online. They go back to being something else once the computer is turned off. Also BDSMers who pretend to be Gorean or those who call the BDSM slave holding they do Gorean also fit this category.

There are certain vitues we consider to be Gorean. Failure to keep to them when you claim to be Gorean can also be where we say that someone has failed to be Gorean. Those are virtues such as Honor (the one you hear the most about), responsibility, honesty, loyalty and other things not all of which we all agree about after the first two or three mentioned. Those virtues are not unique to Goreans. They are part of what we have called taken from the books as admirable traits for Goreans. A person who is working their way, changing their life to become Gorean, but is not yet there has not failed, they just have not yet achieved the status where they and others call them Gorean.

Now we get to the one you are really asking about. Someone who fails at being a Master. The first way to fail is the same as for the slave. They say that they are not doing this any more and walk away, abandoning whatever relationship they had. Even if they had very good reasons for going away, that is still failure, especially if they just drop the slave they were responsibile for. Like a slave, they may succeed as a human, but fail at being a Master and it was the right choice for them to have made.

The second way is for a man to fail to master himself. If you can not control yourself, how do you expect to control another. Men who fly into rages over little things do not have control over themselves. Men who can not decide what they want but everything is wrong unless it was what they wanted have not mastered themselves. Men who say that everything is the slave's fault and never their fault and who keep looking for ways to punish the slave have not mastered themselves. Either that, or they are sadists pretending to be Gorean. In the books Norman calls sadism a sickness not often found on Gor. Personally, I think that is because he thought that sadists were using the infliction of pain as a way of dominance and to transfer what they felt was being done to them by others. Gorean men usually are dominant by nature, they don't have to hurt someone to prove it.

The next way to fail at being a Master is to not work at being a Master. I would stay far away from anyone who says they are a natural Master and everything automatically comes to them and they always do things right. Masters are people. People make mistakes. Masters make mistakes. Some of those mistakes hurt people and can hurt them badly. I tell new people who want a slave that first they have to learn EVERTHING they want the slave to learn, they have to learn the slave better than she knows herself and they have to learn how to Master a slave and keep that mastery over her. I won't even go into what depths and knowledge I think it takes to train a slave and know what you are doing and why it is working. Most people train on gut instinct and the slave ends up serving mostly out of love, not his mastery of her. (How many of you would understand what I mean by the accretion of psychophysiological triggers? <grins>)

Men can fail very many ways. Masters can fail in many ways. Goreans can fail in a few ways. Personlly I think most will fail primarily through not being what they claim to be and secondarily through lack of knowledge and/or lack of working at being a Master. I have failed at being a Master through the lack of knowledge and work. My failures have hurt other people. I do not wish to fail again. This is also why I try to educate others about what it means and takes to be a Gorean. Goreans hold each other to much higher standards than we do other people. I hold myself to a higher standard than I do other Goreans.

This is probably a bit longer than you expected but it is something that needs to be said, and I will rewite it a bit and put it elsewhere for others to read. So...it serves a good purpose...probably several.

be well....

Malkinius

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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 6/13/2005 6:07:13 AM   
DesertRat


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See?

Thanks for the opinion.

Bob

< Message edited by DesertRat -- 6/13/2005 6:09:39 AM >

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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 6/13/2005 11:02:52 AM   
cellogrrlMK


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I hear you Bob...

cello

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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 6/13/2005 9:55:29 PM   
Leonidas


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Sure. You can tell the failed slave owner by the empty collar in his hands and the quizzical look on his face. He looks much like the failed business owner watching the creditors auction off his goods or the failed car owner watching the repo man drive off into the sunset with his car in tow.

To a Gorean a slave is property. Human property to be sure, but property nonetheless. To fail at owning a slave is just the same as failing to successfully own any other valuable property. The selection and management of a girl is all up to the owner. If you choose poorly, there isn't going to be much you can do to improve your lot, no matter how skilled you may think you are. There is no making a silk purse from a sow's ear, as my grandfather used to say. Similarly, a girl with all the potential in the world isn't going to do you much good if you don't have the means at your disposal to realize that potential. She fails to please you and you let her go. You fail to master her and she runs off, or get stolen from you. Either way, there you stand, empty collar in hand. The only consolation is that there are few things in life worth doing that one succeeds at on the first trial. Take home the take home lessons, and try again if you are so inclined.

There is one other type of failed slave owner (and maybe the most common kind). They are otherwise known as "boyfriends". They are common because despite all posturing to the contrary, they never really wanted a slave. They wanted a girlfriend and thought that looking masterly was a good way to get one. As soon as the girl submits, their mission is accomplished and they go back to being who they were.



< Message edited by Leonidas -- 6/13/2005 10:22:54 PM >


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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 6/13/2005 11:02:51 PM   
cellogrrlMK


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Leonidas, I KNEW I could count on you for a clear concise response!


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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 6/16/2005 8:19:31 AM   
Kiaban


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And then sometimes there are simply failed relationships, where neither person is a failure in and of themselves for whatever reason they just couldnt make it work together.

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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 6/16/2005 10:31:15 AM   
Oumae


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kiaban

And then sometimes there are simply failed relationships, where neither person is a failure in and of themselves for whatever reason they just couldnt make it work together.


So very true!

Oumae

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Is cuma le fear na mbrog ca leagann se a chos.
( The man with the boots does not mind where he places his foot)

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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 6/23/2005 5:46:19 PM   
subexpose170


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clearly when you speak of gor being a failed anything has to involve some sort of bad roll of the dice in a games of dungeons and dragons or perhaps your replica star trek uniform is missing a key detail.

Wade


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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 8/26/2005 7:26:42 PM   
MasterCeltic


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Ok I pose a querry on this topic and that is can a marrage (or two) that has failed be concider such a failure of a Master?
Celtic Master

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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 8/30/2005 6:04:32 AM   
IronBear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCeltic

Ok I pose a querry on this topic and that is can a marrage (or two) that has failed be concider such a failure of a Master?
Celtic Master


My view is that a failed marriage could be considered as a Failed Master if:
1. Your wife was in your collar.
2. You were living a Gorean Life at the time.

I’d hazard a guess that many Gorean Masters have at one time, qualified as a Failed Master, probably in their younger days in Gor. I know I qualify for that. The essential thing on my part is that I realised I ah failed and there was no one else to blame so I pulled my head in and got my arse into gear. I sort out those who I trusted in Gor and asked them to mentor me as I relearned what I thought I knew and filled in the gaps of my education. Why do I call myself master with an empty collar instead of a Free Man? Simple, I am the master of my destiny and that of my home. I have a Free Companion who I am married to. My collar is empty not due to a lack of people who have approached me both from the US and in Australia, but due to the exact standards of what I expect and will accept. Nothing less will suffice, thus an empty collar is better than one filled with a person who is not suitable or able to meet my requirements. (Learned that lesson the hard way).


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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 8/30/2005 7:35:45 AM   
nella


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One can say i am a failed slave, i have the longing to be a slave, and take that step out completly, but long before i begun to understand that i made another engaement that i will not nor can not brake, and i simply have not the time to be a slave so i am a submissive in stead. In such a way i failed to furfull that slave nature inside of me.

But even so, i am not a failed person, i am a good occultist, a loving person and i am somone whit loves and desires, but as a slave, i have failed.

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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 8/30/2005 12:17:11 PM   
MasterCeltic


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Iron Bear
In both cases my wife was not in my collar nor a slave but the thing that gets me is that both of them did something extremely unforgivable while I was with a termenally parent (both have passed on from cancer ). The first was having an affair with a friend of mine while I was in another state and the second divorced me while I was in yet again another state taking care of my father. Needless to say these two events compounded by the fact that all of my blood family is now gone mad me atart to think that I was wrong or more to the point broken some how. I am just now getting to the point where I am able to meditate and connect with the god and goddess but I still have a long way to go. After reading what you said in the rply to my question I realize now that I was not the one who screwed up and for that I thank you.
Blessings on your home and family
Celtic Master

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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 8/30/2005 1:33:45 PM   
nella


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i am sorry to hear of what happend to you Celtic Master, the woman you were whit were hartless and cruel and there is no failing on your part but on hers. i sincerly wish you the best for the future and hope you find a warm and giving person/persons to be whit that can apriciate a warm and caring person that feel such strong obligation and love towards family that you seam to do. My best wishes.

Belssings

nella

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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 8/30/2005 6:08:22 PM   
MasterCeltic


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I can only hope that I find the one girl that is waiting for me. I have learned that I must be willing to wait and find her in time (however I am finding hard to do so). nella I thank you for you kind and and heart felt words. Now if the rest of the world at large were just a wee bit more like those of us that have found the things that make us happy I thoink we all would be better off.
Celtic Master

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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 8/30/2005 7:28:08 PM   
nella


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i totaly agree, if pepole consentraded on being happy, of finding what they wanted and cared a bit moore aboute one another this world be a better world.

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RE: Failure - in the Gorean context - 8/31/2005 4:51:41 PM   
soleserver


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yes this is a deep but interesting subject.
The very reason why the parallel Gorean world was brought into existence in the novels of John Norman was because a woman was not allowed to express herself truly on the World of Earth...she was required to veil her inner nature of seeking pleasure and ecstasy at the feet of a strong Master who would yield her,mould her to allow her to be herself...that is a kajira, a slave and plaything which is very liberating ,being in consonance with what she desires in her heart.

Correspondingly a Master fails...if he is unable to bring out this fulfillment and deep pleasure in a kajira.
The skill in being a Master in the Gorean world is to enable a kajira to experience this great ecstasy of being...a slave.

(in reply to cellogrrlMK)
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