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RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 3:55:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

level,
perhaps i was too quick to pluralize my statement. .... i wasnt suggesting you were .
i will often end my post with the words,,friend, or friends :)
in hopes of showing no real hard feelings. after all, this is cyber land

I understand, and appreciate the explanation

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Post #: 61

RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 4:10:45 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Do people have any theories about how when people start from the same position they can end up at diametrically opposed solutions?
i have a (not wholly worked through) hypothesis about this, but would value others thoughts on this........

Since Caitlyn has really knocked this one out of the park, I'll just add my name to the list who think it comes down to core beliefs about human nature and the role of government.

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Post #: 62

RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 4:56:43 PM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Is it always as simple as that though? For instance you and i have argued hard in the past, while i can't deny an element of ego to those arguments, don't you think there was some other factor at work there as well? Something cultural maybe?

Yes, I think it's as simple as that.

We all have an ego ... we can even have a big ego. The difference is, that some people let that ego rule them, while others do not. Yes, we have argued in the past, and when it got out of hand, or there was a misquote, or just a dead-bang flame ... there was always an apology.

Give yourself credit ... you once said something in a post to me, that turned out to be wrong, and you were the first one to admit it. Contrast that to the vast majority, whom when they are shown to be wrong, usually remain silent and move on to the next post.

The ultimate ego ... they are so arrogant, they think we actually didn't notice.

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Post #: 63

RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 5:38:00 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
.where does the unwillingness to see the other sides point of view come from? i'm not sure there is an answer to it, but.....well, we have to try.

The problem is that there are to many answers for it. trying to pigeon hole this is like fitting an ocean into a 5 gallon can.

The reasons can range from
partisonship
naivity
ignorance
arrogance
personal experience
denial
better educated
less educated
incomprehension
comprehension
and on and on endlessly

.......do you really see the dynamic involved as utterly random or is there, perhaps, an underlying pattern?

sure there are unfortunately several underlying patterns dependant on which demographic you wish to choose. I mean you can pick pretty much any one on that list and apply it to different people r groups of people out here. i dont belive its random its very specific if a person goes through the trouble to identify it.

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Post #: 64

RE: political solutions - 6/30/2007 5:46:21 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Is it always as simple as that though? For instance you and i have argued hard in the past, while i can't deny an element of ego to those arguments, don't you think there was some other factor at work there as well? Something cultural maybe?

Yes, I think it's as simple as that.

We all have an ego ... we can even have a big ego. The difference is, that some people let that ego rule them, while others do not. Yes, we have argued in the past, and when it got out of hand, or there was a misquote, or just a dead-bang flame ... there was always an apology.

Give yourself credit ... you once said something in a post to me, that turned out to be wrong, and you were the first one to admit it. Contrast that to the vast majority, whom when they are shown to be wrong, usually remain silent and move on to the next post.

The ultimate ego ... they are so arrogant, they think we actually didn't notice.

AWOL acquiescense...

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Post #: 65

RE: political solutions - 7/2/2007 2:13:36 AM

Vendaval

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Sure, we all have different life experiences based on culture, class, economics,
religion or the lack thereor, family structure and functionality, education, etc.

And in the aspect of belief, which is very subjective, and you have
the colorful and contentous squabbling and babbling that goes on about politics.

YMMV,

Vendaval

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Do people have any theories about how when people start from the same position they can end up at diametrically opposed solutions?

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Post #: 66

RE: political solutions - 7/2/2007 5:38:19 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrbob726
I'm not sure that 100g would be there, but certainly more than there is now

I was fortunate to do a bit of saving on my own. I feel serious sympathy for anyone that has to rely on Social Security alone.

The misuse of funds is only half the problem.

Social security during the baby boomer years showed a dramatic increase as job security in the United States increased, high paying jobs existed, etc. Many of the baby boomers did not have children. Many of the high paying jobs disappeared.

Now the baby boomers are set to retire, they want the money they paid in all that time. The money they paid in was invested, loaned out, misused by the Government, whatever. The scheme only works for a stable or expanding population of tax-paying and working citizens. It does not work for a shrinking population of tax-paying wage earners, because the large number of people being paid eat into the principle and do not allow it to maintain itself. It is my generation who gets to pay your benefits. But the generation following mine does not have the wherewithal to keep the funds up when it is my turn.

I am happy for those of you drawing social security, by the time I hit retirement age I suspect your generation will have used it all. In other words, despite my paying into it my entire life I will not be able to reap the rewards that both you and I deserve.

Sinergy

p.s. I cannot tell you how many extremely well-off retirees I hear demanding to receive their hard earned social security benefits which they paid in to their entire life and deserve. Not one of them stops to think "gee, I have enough money saved up and I really dont need this" and offer to leave it in the fund for those less fortunate.

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Post #: 67

RE: political solutions - 7/2/2007 8:35:47 PM

Archer

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We all tend to get caught up in our own values. The differences come in not with what the values are but in the order we rank them against each other when they must be compromised.

I don't doubt that those left of my leaning value hard work. What I have found is many of those left of me rank many things above hard work that I do not.
I don't doubt that those to the right of me value freedom. What I have found is many of those right of me rank many things above freedom that I do not.

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RE: political solutions - 7/2/2007 9:13:37 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

We all tend to get caught up in our own values. The differences come in not with what the values are but in the order we rank them against each other when they must be compromised.

I don't doubt that those left of my leaning value hard work. What I have found is many of those left of me rank many things above hard work that I do not.
I don't doubt that those to the right of me value freedom. What I have found is many of those right of me rank many things above freedom that I do not.

Not sure what this means.

I work harder than most people I know, and I consider myself a liberal tree-hugging, owl saver pacifist.

Any comments on how much the right values "freedom" can be answered by reading the text of the Patriot Act.

Get back to me on this.

Sinergy

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Post #: 69

RE: political solutions - 7/3/2007 3:21:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

We all tend to get caught up in our own values. The differences come in not with what the values are but in the order we rank them against each other when they must be compromised.

I don't doubt that those left of my leaning value hard work. What I have found is many of those left of me rank many things above hard work that I do not.
I don't doubt that those to the right of me value freedom. What I have found is many of those right of me rank many things above freedom that I do not.

Not sure what this means.

I work harder than most people I know, and I consider myself a liberal tree-hugging, owl saver pacifist.

Any comments on how much the right values "freedom" can be answered by reading the text of the Patriot Act.

Get back to me on this.

Sinergy

So, no one on the right values freedom?

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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Post #: 70

RE: political solutions - 7/3/2007 7:55:00 AM

Archer

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Sinergy you do know the difference between a general comparison and a specific one don't you?
Quit trying to confuse the issue by making a general comment a specific one.

BTW what happened to the "I sit on my butt and do practicly nothing on my union job" lines???? LOL

My case still stands it's not the values that differ so much as the ranking people give them.
The 10 minute political test thing that went through a week or so ago is a nearly perfect reflection of the idea.
It asked questions designed to show the ranking people give to ideas and values.

"Me and Gandhi are homies.

Economic Left/Right: -3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.10

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RE: political solutions - 7/3/2007 8:39:22 AM

OrionTheWolf

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Since we are not all one people, cannot think identically, and draw from our own personal experiences for our opinion, then many different views are needed. I like seeing multiple solutions to the problem, then each can be examined and weighed based upon the pro's and con's of each. It also seems that many will take a stance so as not to be labeled a certain way in other areas. They feel like they must go a certain way, so that their other parts of their agenda is seen in that same light.

Emotion needs to be included, but to a much lesser degree than logic and reason. We do not want the emotion of a Mob mentality running things (democracy in it's truest form) but we also do not want the government to limit personal liberties. I hate the two party system in the US, because I think it breeds alot of rhetoric that clouds many issues, and pushes down many viable solutions. I see so many that wind up putting the "us" and "them" label on things and human nature is usually competitive and not as cooperative unless a mutual interest exists.

Orion

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