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herniated disc - 7/2/2007 6:42:24 PM   
Phoenix2raven


Posts: 347
Joined: 10/14/2006
Status: offline 		So Ive been diagnosed with two herniated discs L4 & L5 any one have this problem and what worked for you. My doctor jumped at surgury very quickly but gave me two other options 1. prednisone shots in my back  or live with the pain. I want to make an educated decision. So any one who has been through any of the treatments I would appreciate it if you could share your experience. What is troubling me the most is I've seen and heard what surgery has done and it doesn't look very good .
Thanks, Phoenix
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RE: herniated disc - 7/2/2007 6:51:13 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I have a similiar problem, I have 2 bilaterally herniated discs in my back. I live with the pain, becasue the shots and the surgery both didnt sound like decent alternatives to me.

I did take up martial arts, and the stretching and regular workouts did wonders for me. I do still have bad days, but between the Excedrine Back and Body (which is wonderful stuff), the occasional perscription pain pill, lots of activity and stretching I havent really been to badly affected by it. A super high tolerance for pain doesnt hurt, but that was my choice.

My father had cortizone shots in his spine, for different disks but same problem.  They did great for him, and aside from some minor irritation around the injection site and about 2 days rest afterwards.. he thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. Only thing was, he could never drive himself home after the treatments

Good luck
DV



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RE: herniated disc - 7/2/2007 7:17:28 PM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		Yep, I had the same degenerated discs, L4 & L5.  I tried all the conservative approaches... 4 months of physical therapy, which was beneficial because it made all my muscles, especially back and stomach muscles, strong.  I was determined not to get the epidural injections because I'd heard the horror stories....   My physical therapist talked me into trying them, and they worked great, and I felt like I had a new back....for about 3 days.  What they do is relieve the inflammation from the inside out, but they don't cure the CAUSE of the problem, and the irritation will come back along with the pain.

Eventually, my discs degenerated/crumbled away into nothing and my vertebrae were sitting directly on top of each other and the L4 started slipping downward over the L5, compressing the spinal cord.  My only option at that point was having the surgery, having the artificial discs put in and the L4 & 5 plus the S1 fused with rods and screws, etc.

I'll tell you, the recovery was grueling at first, but I'd do it again tomorrow to feel like I do now.  It's like I really do have a new low back now. I have NO pain and take NO pain medication for it, ever!  It's not something to jump into, but it was my last resort and I am really glad I did it.  I went to the neurosurgeon in my area with an excellent reputation, so I trusted him completely.  I still was terrified, but once again, I am really glad I did it. 

Good luck to you, whatever you decide!

P.S.  DV, your father couldn't drive himself home probably because they gave him an IV sedative for the procedure.  I had that the first time, but found that with the local anesthesia injection they give you at the epidural site, I really didn't have that much discomfort, and the cortisone injection itself really wasn't all that bad, and I declined the IV sedative both other times I had the epidurals done.  The second time, I got in my car and drove from the hospital 3 hours up to visit a friend :)  I was a little tender around the site, but that was it.

< Message edited by windchymes -- 7/2/2007 7:21:08 PM >

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RE: herniated disc - 7/2/2007 7:24:56 PM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		One more thing, to the OP, physical therapy from a therapist who has specialized training in working with backs (like the MacKenzie program) can do wonders with herniated discs.  I highly recommend trying that first.  I'm always suspicious of a doctor who pushes surgery too soon.  Unless your problems are horrific and severe, most doctors like to try the conservative approach first.

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RE: herniated disc - 7/2/2007 7:26:52 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Prednisone sucks, just saying.  It can really fuck up your body.  I was on it for asthma, have been on it in the past for eczema.  I found that I could not sleep and was jittery.  I am high strung to begin with and when you are hyper and lacking sleep, it's not good.  I did find that these things were gone after I stopped taking it.  It is a wonder drug, but not without side-effects.  Be extra cautious if you are a diabetic taking it as it can mess up your glucose level.

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RE: herniated disc - 7/2/2007 8:17:39 PM   
bluelace001


Posts: 62
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		Hello,
I read your post, and i had a few herniated disc i had to live with. At first the doctors were jumping at wanting to do surgery , they wanted to put pins in my back and fuse my disc, ect ect ect. I was lucky and workmans comp denied it, so i was in 4 years of physical therapy till they let me go because there was nothing else they could do. What finally ended up helping me was strengthing up my back. I acutally did that by becoming a ranch hand on a horse farm. Years later after I had another child and was no longer working hard labor, my beautiful little girl at the age of 4 jumped on me and blew one of the already herniated disc. L-5 ?(the very last disc in your spine ) I could not feel my legs and had the choice of wheelchair or surgery. This happened on a Tuesday and i was in surgery by Friday. When I woke up i could feel my legs again. Alls they did was remove the jelly/fluid that was pushing on the nerves and left the lining of the disc. I have restrictions on activities, but to be honest with you, i seldom have pain and i live a very full life. Master is able to play with me in many ways including resistance play, rope bondage, all sorts of things. The only thing he has not attempted yet is suspension during bondage due to the risk. He says if i strengthen up my back, he'll consider it. Not all surgery is bad. Get a second opinion and find out exactly what they want to do and what the ramifications of that choice would be. If they had fused me years ago... they told me i'd have to keep having back surgery for the rest of my life cause the following discs would blow....like taking a crow bar to a man hole.. That isn't how i wanted to live life. You need to do what is best for you, and your starting off good by educating yourself. Check with other doctors and nurologist. Hope this helps and best of luck to you.
bluelace_V
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RE: herniated disc - 7/2/2007 8:56:33 PM   
DommeChains


Posts: 415
Joined: 3/23/2006
Status: offline 		Everybody is different.  I have two herniated disks..L5 and T4 and degenerative disk disease.  I have had several courses of steroids and, while they helped for a bit, the side effects can be horrendous for some folks...me being one of them.  And, yes,  I know me being fat does not help the situation.  I do advise to not be too hasty to go the surgery route without trying the more conservative approaches first.  Some folks have great results from the surgery......and an equal number still have issues after the surgery.

Many things have to be considered.......have you had long term back issues which have been neglected or not treated? how fit you were prior to herniating the disks can affect how well and how fast therapy can help strength your muscles and connective tissues, your lifestyle/work/other health issues.  I would advise getting more than 1 professional assessment and hopefully you have a savvy doctor(s) who are willing to discuss all the issues with you.  I wish you the best of luck.....back issues are not fun and can be life altering.

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RE: herniated disc - 7/2/2007 10:11:14 PM   
daddysblondie


Posts: 181
Joined: 3/17/2007
Status: offline 		Let me preface this by saying I have no experience with back injuries, however I have had several cortisone injections for some other injuries.

Be aware, cortisone injections wear off, and in my experience, after the three months that the cortisone helped, my injured parts hurt worse than they had before. Also, I was told by both my OT and my surgeon that you should only have 3 cortisone injections in any one site before there is a high risk of actually causing damage.

I'm all for not rushing into surgery for an injury. Get a second opinion. Try therapy. I don't regret exhausting my options before I took the surgical route, but it's important too to know WHEN to give up on alternative treatments.

On a side note, after all my therapy, cortisone shots and surgeries, I still have some issues and have found that accupuncture is my friend! It don't think it's going to heal you, but you might get some relief from it.

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RE: herniated disc - 7/3/2007 10:05:28 AM   
Domspaintoy


Posts: 158
Joined: 2/25/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

Yep, I had the same degenerated discs, L4 & L5.  I tried all the conservative approaches... 4 months of physical therapy, which was beneficial because it made all my muscles, especially back and stomach muscles, strong.  I was determined not to get the epidural injections because I'd heard the horror stories....   My physical therapist talked me into trying them, and they worked great, and I felt like I had a new back....for about 3 days.  What they do is relieve the inflammation from the inside out, but they don't cure the CAUSE of the problem, and the irritation will come back along with the pain.

Eventually, my discs degenerated/crumbled away into nothing and my vertebrae were sitting directly on top of each other and the L4 started slipping downward over the L5, compressing the spinal cord.  My only option at that point was having the surgery, having the artificial discs put in and the L4 & 5 plus the S1 fused with rods and screws, etc.

I'll tell you, the recovery was grueling at first, but I'd do it again tomorrow to feel like I do now.  It's like I really do have a new low back now. I have NO pain and take NO pain medication for it, ever!  It's not something to jump into, but it was my last resort and I am really glad I did it.  I went to the neurosurgeon in my area with an excellent reputation, so I trusted him completely.  I still was terrified, but once again, I am really glad I did it. 

Good luck to you, whatever you decide!




This treatment sounds almost identical to treatment my aunt had and the injections never really worked much the same as the above poster, the operation sounds much like an operation my aunt had at the start of this year, she was flat on her for 2 days then strapped into a surgical corset (she is just out of it now) but she has said its like she has been given a new lease of life, and she is finally painfree. 

She has to be careful and has excercises she has to do and wishes she'd had the operation 10 years ago as she would still be working (she was a hairdresser and was her posture which has caused the problems in the 1st place)

id suggest you get all the info for the operation, ask to be put in touch with other post-op patients and get their input, whilst your deciding do some of the excercises other posters have suggested.

good Luck with it.

dpt.

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RE: herniated disc - 7/3/2007 2:28:57 PM   
Phoenix2raven


Posts: 347
Joined: 10/14/2006
Status: offline 		Well to late I started taking prednisone and haven't slept for 2 days. I do have relief from the pain AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Thanks for the info I will be seeing a doctor for a consult and I will definitely ask for a second opinion.
           Thanks, Phoenix

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RE: herniated disc - 7/3/2007 3:44:22 PM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		I would like to mention that the steroid injections (epidurals) do the job in that they reduce inflammation, which causes pain.  That is all.  They're great if that's all you have, is inflammation causing you pain.  It gives you temporary relief so that you can heal. 

They "don't work" when there is an underlying problem CAUSING the inflammation, and if that problem is not fixed, the inflammation is going to keep occurring.

Too often, we only hear the negative and the horror stories about treatments, but they're far in the minority.  Epidural injections and surgery help the vast majority of people.  Many times, people whose surgeries or other treatments "don't work" because they weren't compliant with follow up programs, like exercise,  stretching and strengthening, physical therapy, etc.  And, a few people just don't want to get better because they kinda like being off work on disability, unfortunately.

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RE: herniated disc - 7/3/2007 3:47:40 PM   
hereyesruponyou


Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		my partner just had surgery (6 weeks ago) for an L4-L5  herniation that was pushing on the nerve and causing foot drop. He didn't have alot of pain from the site, but he was having alot of pain in the back from trying to compensate walking. He did the pt/chiropractor for 4 months then consulted the surgeon. After a myelogram, they determined they could do a "simple" laminectomy discectomy. which meant no rods, no fusing, so he went for it. Unfortunately it may have been too late. The muscle seems to want to fire into the foot, but can't hold it. The foot drop isn't really corrected and he has pain now where he didn't before and alot of swelling in the foot if he sits or stands too long. He's still in the therapy stage, but not sure this was thebest decision. I say take your time and decide what you can live with.

Best of luck.....seriously

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RE: herniated disc - 7/3/2007 4:02:22 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I had five.  I lived with it until I couldn't walk.  I did whatever I normally did, stretches... etc.  When I had no choice I had the surgery I swore I would never have.  Two hours later I was walking and feeling great.  It worked well for me... but I have other problems stemming from the first ones and more I added later trying to live somewhat normally.  Now I am working on three more in upper back.

Good luck!

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RE: herniated disc - 7/3/2007 8:37:41 PM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I have the same problem in my upper back. For awhile I was having spasms in my lower right side from a fragment that was laying on a nerve. My doctor wanted to do surgery right away but after reading about it, I am not so sure. It doesn't seem to help everyone and he would have to get real close to my spinal cord to do this and I am not going for that. I lived with the pain and then one day POOF it stopped hurting. That was 4 months ago, I hope it stays quiet.

~Lashra


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RE: herniated disc - 7/5/2007 6:50:29 AM   
habibi


Posts: 59
Joined: 10/15/2005
Status: offline 		i was on epidural injections of steroids and pain meds every month for several months due to severe back pain caused by MS, scoliosis, and a VERY large chest.
the first thing i want to say is that epidural injection of steroids is MUCH different than taking them PO (by mouth) or via IV for other illnesses.  i also get massive doses of steroids IV when i have an MS flare, then take them PO to taper off.  yes, steroids in this manner make you feel terrible (though i usually DO appreciate the extra energy as MS leaves you VERY fatigued) and they can have dire consequence on your bones.  however, most of the time, when steroids are given, it is for a GOOD and medically sound reason, meaning that NOT taking them can be much worse for your health, and in the case of asthema can in fact kill you.  yes, it sucks..i hate it.  i gain 10 lbs and feel miserable for days...and the taste that my IV steroids leaves in my mouth is nearly unbearable...BUT...i know that NOT getting them can lead to my body being paralyzed and/or possible breathing complications including death.  what good is worrying about feeling kind of crappy and losing some bone mass (i'm 26 and already suffering from osteopenia, btw) when the possiblity of death or extreme disability from NOT taking them is even worse?!  it seems like an OK trade off to me anyway...but perhaps being so young and already having such negative impacts on my life (a walker and sometimes a wheelchair, terrible side effects of meds including all that chemotherapy brings on, losing the ability to do a job i adored and losing the ability to be the primary caretaker of my beloved miracle of a child) has changed my willingness to put myself in some pain or discomfort if it means i'm alive and as healthy as long as possible in the long run.  Anyway...my point was that even though steroids IV or PO can be bad, they can save your life...AND getting epidural injections is NOT anywhere near the same.  I have had 3 regular epidurals that leave you completely paralyzed, 2 lumbar punctures (spinal taps) and 10 epidural injections of steroids and pain meds.  not one of them did i have a sedative for.  i managed to not only talk through all of them, but laugh. (carefully!!  it IS a needle in your spine, after all!)  none of them have been the worst pain i've ever experienced. (a C section with only partial epidural was the worst...like a torture scene from a movie.  you should never have to lay there while feeling them make an 8 inch incision in you! *smiles anyway* but at least i got my miracle out of the deal) i have also had several cortisone injections in my feet, hips and shoulders.  all of these things helped me, to an extent.  i've also gone though physical therapy, which also helped some....taken varying amounts of every pain medication available, in varying combinations, including rather high doses of methadone (now THERES a drug i would NEVER recommend except in extreme heroin addiction! gads it's terrible) which ALSO had some success.  i really think it all depends on the person...and i think it's both rare and lucky to find just one thing that works for you completely.  it's rare to find anything that "cures" pain related conditions.  usually you have to use a combination of things.  some time this fall i'll be preparing to have surgery to implant an electronic neurostimulator on my spine, in hopes of helping me a bit more.

again...back to my point that steroids CAN be helpful...that they are not for everyone the devils they can sometimes seem....they can work miracles, though they do have a price to their use.  but...i think we all have situations in our life where we have to choose one bad thing over another to help us survive.  and i truely believe that when it comes to your health and the prevention of disablility, sometimes it's better to chose something like steroids to help you than letting things potentially get worse and end up in a situation you never imagined.....in other words...sometimes it's better to chose the devil you know than the devil you don't.

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RE: herniated disc - 7/5/2007 7:15:08 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix2raven

So Ive been diagnosed with two herniated discs L4 & L5 any one have this problem and what worked for you. My doctor jumped at surgery very quickly but gave me two other options 1. prednisone shots in my back  or live with the pain. I want to make an educated decision. So any one who has been through any of the treatments I would appreciate it if you could share your experience. What is troubling me the most is I've seen and heard what surgery has done and it doesn't look very good .
Thanks, Phoenix


I had L4-L5-S1-S2 disks herniated. The pain was incredible. The diagnosing doctor prescribed a hard core pain killer, a month of physical therapy, and an orthopedic doctor to oversee the progress. He gave me the same course of treatment. including a series of prednisone shots.

The physical therapy was more effective. The therapist told me he did many of the same things a chiropractor would do, I never went to a chiropractor, and set up a program of back/stomach strengthening exercises to do between therapy sessions. He and the doctor told me the physical therapy would help and so would continuing the exercises but the best treatment and longest lasting would be weight loss. Short of that, I would have to consider surgery. They both said surgery should be the last option considered. I had to loss about 50 pounds.

I got "religious" about the weight loss. I was the equivalent of a 'ex-smoker' regarding food and exercise. I lost the weight and at 43 was in the best shape of my life. My back stopped hurting and the disks recovered. Its been 9 years, and some of weight I lost has found me again, but no where near where I was. The doctor said the disks will always be weak, and I should be careful, but you know how it is. As long as it doesn't hurt, and the pain experience get further in the past, the mind-set to keep the weight off and the exercise program on isn't a driving force.

I have no idea what your situation is regarding weight, but in my case - it was the 'cure'. The choice of losing weight or going under the knife, was easy. Combined with the thought of being required to be on daily pain meds; it provided sufficient motivation.

One last note, the doctors I saw and the physical therapist did say one other thing. If you are going to submit to surgery make sure a Neurosurgeon does the work and not an orthopedic surgeon. Working around the spine requires a higher skill set than working on a damaged leg/arm.

Good luck!

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RE: herniated disc - 7/6/2007 3:11:18 PM   
Phoenix2raven


Posts: 347
Joined: 10/14/2006
Status: offline 		I had L4-L5-S1-S2 disks herniated. The pain was incredible. The diagnosing doctor prescribed a hard core pain killer, a month of physical therapy, and an orthopedic doctor to oversee the progress. He gave me the same course of treatment. including a series of prednisone shots.

The physical therapy was more effective. The therapist told me he did many of the same things a chiropractor would do, I never went to a chiropractor, and set up a program of back/stomach strengthening exercises to do between therapy sessions. He and the doctor told me the physical therapy would help and so would continuing the exercises but the best treatment and longest lasting would be weight loss. Short of that, I would have to consider surgery. They both said surgery should be the last option considered. I had to loss about 50 pounds.

I got "religious" about the weight loss. I was the equivalent of a 'ex-smoker' regarding food and exercise. I lost the weight and at 43 was in the best shape of my life. My back stopped hurting and the disks recovered. Its been 9 years, and some of weight I lost has found me again, but no where near where I was. The doctor said the disks will always be weak, and I should be careful, but you know how it is. As long as it doesn't hurt, and the pain experience get further in the past, the mind-set to keep the weight off and the exercise program on isn't a driving force.

I have no idea what your situation is regarding weight, but in my case - it was the 'cure'. The choice of losing weight or going under the knife, was easy. Combined with the thought of being required to be on daily pain meds; it provided sufficient motivation.

One last note, the doctors I saw and the physical therapist did say one other thing. If you are going to submit to surgery make sure a Neurosurgeon does the work and not an orthopedic surgeon. Working around the spine requires a higher skill set than working on a damaged leg/arm.

Good luck!
[/quote]Thanks I do carry a small tire around my belly and I'm sure loosing it will help. I have made an appointment with a chiropractor and have begun physical therapy. Taking prednisone realy sucks big time but it has given me relief. but no sleepand has made me very moody. Thanks to all the replies and for sharing your experiences it has helped me avoid alot of BS from the doctors.

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RE: herniated disc - 7/6/2007 3:12:56 PM   
Phoenix2raven


Posts: 347
Joined: 10/14/2006
Status: offline 		Woops sorry for my mess up with that quote Mercnbeth.

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RE: herniated disc - 7/6/2007 3:25:22 PM   
openmindedslave


Posts: 470
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Let me talk about something else here..As a person who is witnessing someone going throught a degerative disk disease.A person on disability due to the severe pain inflicted.
This is clearly for the worst of suffers out there..
Pain is an incrediable destroyer of lives.Pain that never lets up for the most extreme will takes it's toll on your immune system.Your ability to fight off  other problems can be diminished.Also in extreme case( not everyone ) depression can set in  due to daily level of constant pain. Depression for some , will break up relationships and can cost people their jobs...
And for some out here,,surgery for the lower back, can make a person over compensate and bend their upper back and neck more often-putting stress and future injuries that can end up with more serious surgeries to correct..

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RE: herniated disc - 7/6/2007 3:43:59 PM   
PAsextoy4u


Posts: 58
Joined: 9/27/2006
Status: offline 		I had disc problems around L4-L5.  And I had a large right sided herniation between C6-C7.  What worked for ME was passive physical therapy, which consisted of Ultrasound therapy, myofascial release and massage, then passive gentle slow stretching.  Most PT doesnt work because they start out too fast and too aggressive. You cant re-build and strengthen your muscles until you work out the deep muscle spasms that originally put pressure on the discs and vertebras, or heal the injury to the area or until you eliminate the inflammation in the area.  Ultrasound goes in deep, and helps with spasms and inflammation.  The myofascial release and massage helps relax the muscles and moves out the "waste" that accumulates in an injured area. 

I never had surgery, and the L4-L5 disc hasnt bothered me in a few years now.  The herniated disc healed about 90%, with just some right arm weakness, but that was because my condition was misdiagnosed for over 4 months and there was some original nerve damage.  Im in the process of slowly strengthening my upper body.

Most doctors want to cut or give drugs or shots.  We live in an instant microwave world, and we forget that the human body can be re-taught to function properly IN TIME.  We all have the ability to be healed and to heal ourselves but we have to be willing to give our bodies the necessary time it needs to truly heal. 

One problem with prednisone and cortisone shots is that the body can build up scarred tissue or toxic hardening around the area of the shots, which leads to more pain in the long run.  Anti-inflammatory drugs cause side effects that then cause more problems for the body to have to deal with, which distracts the body from healing the original injury.

Good luck with whatever path you choose to heal your back.  I know how painful that can be, and I hope you find long term relieve and peace with your condition.

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