RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb?

RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (Full Version)

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LeMis -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/4/2007 8:27:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50 geez, and all of this...starting with a video on skateboards. ..............and your opinion on the video/officer? Enquiring minds want to know..... [;)]

Alumbrado -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/4/2007 8:27:34 AM)
quote: Back to what I said in another thread, it's a Class issue. ONE LAW FOR THEM, and another for the rest of us. And that is what makes your way of thinking so harmful to innocent people...you don't realize that 'They' are 'Us', so you objectify, and ulitmately act just like 'Them'..

cuddleheart50 -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/4/2007 8:32:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LeMis quote: ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50 geez, and all of this...starting with a video on skateboards. ..............and your opinion on the video/officer? Enquiring minds want to know..... [;)] I think they should have been dipped in hot wax, and had the top of their heads lit up. [;)]

LeMis -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/4/2007 8:54:36 AM)
[:D]

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/4/2007 10:23:19 AM)
Do a search on Castle Law. If you break into my house and enter, then it is reasonable to assume you are a felon. Odds say that most people that commit a felony will use violence to prevent themselves from being captured or jailed. Thus I may "stand my ground", point my firearm at you and tell you to stop, and if you do not, I reasonably presume you will do violence. There are even cases of felons fleeing the scene that have been shot, and the citizen found not guilty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine It is now being rules in those states that use Castle Doctrine, that it is a serious threat to your person for someone to break into your home. Orion

Alumbrado -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/4/2007 10:48:15 AM)
The common understanding of the castle doctrine is pretty far off base, thanks to really crappy news articles on the subjet I suspect. These laws do not remove the requirement that one show that they were reasonably in fear for their life, they extend it as a given, and apply it to being at home when a burglar breaks into that home. You still cannot use deadly force to keep your neighbor's car from being broken into for example. And felony vs. misdemanor has nothing to do with it, apparently also a misreading of the concept of using deadly force against a 'fleeing felon', which in reality has to be provable to a jury as a clear and imminent danger to the life of others. It is easy to pick a few words from the newspaper or Google, and build up an opinion. The trick is getting a jury to buy your logic after you shoot that trespasser for riding his tricycle on your lawn....[;)] Seriously, if anyone doesn't grasp that the Garner ruling sets the standard, take a class and get the instructor/professor to break it down for you, instead of buying into the notion that you can shoot someone over mere property... might save a lot of grief later.

farglebargle -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/4/2007 11:02:31 AM)
quote: hese laws do not remove the requirement that one show that they were reasonably in fear for their life, As all the Cops who ever get away with shit on their Internal Audits show, it's not all that hard to pretend you were in fear for your life. Shit, I bet they role-play it out, just in case...

Alumbrado -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/4/2007 11:05:57 AM)
Based on your posts, I'm sure that is what you would do if you had a badge and a gun... but not everyone is as power hungry as you seem to be.

farglebargle -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/4/2007 11:37:43 AM)
No, I'm still discussing Diallo.... All the cops needed to do to get away with his murder was to pretend that the lone guy on his doorstep, trying to give them his wallet, made them so frightened they had no choice but to draw their guns and shot him 41 times. You know what? If they were that paranoid, they shouldn't have been on the street. Failure in Hiring. Failure in Training. Failure in Supervision. Failure in Discipline. Failure to Terminate Employment appropriately. And the question remains, how many Paranoid Crazies are wearing badges... Why don't we go visit them with video cameras, and follow them around and see if they're paranoid or not?

velvetears -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/4/2007 12:59:51 PM)
i think the cop was on a power trip and went overboard. They were skateboarding not selling illegal drugs or some other REAL crime.

Alumbrado -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/4/2007 1:08:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle No, I'm still discussing Diallo.... All the cops needed to do to get away with his murder was to pretend that the lone guy on his doorstep, trying to give them his wallet, made them so frightened they had no choice but to draw their guns and shot him 41 times. You know what? If they were that paranoid, they shouldn't have been on the street. Failure in Hiring. Failure in Training. Failure in Supervision. Failure in Discipline. Failure to Terminate Employment appropriately. And the question remains, how many Paranoid Crazies are wearing badges... Why don't we go visit them with video cameras, and follow them around and see if they're paranoid or not? I can only imagine why you are afraid to do it... I've worked in that specific area, not only reporting police brutality, but working on the training, recruitment and supervision issues you bring up. And friends of mine at policeabuse.org do it constantly.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/4/2007 6:41:59 PM)
You say mere property, I said breaking into my home. There is a difference, and it is huge. The other things is that some states do have different requirements of what you can and cannot do, from a citizens arrest perspective, depending upon whether they are committing a felony or not. The other is that in judicial decisions on the matter, when the word felon is used "such as fleeing felon" it has an extreme impact upon what is reasonable to fear or not. If the news broadcast that a dangerous fleeing felon is in your area, and suddenly someone kicks in your back door, and you shoot them, the word felon does have a huge impact. I am sorry but I am not going to ask an instructor anything, I would rather ask a practicing criminal attorney that has handle those types of cases. There have been several cases recently here in Georgia where the perpetrator was shot just for breaking into the house, and no charges were filed against the home owner. I would rather talk about the application of things in the real world and not in the classroom. Thanks for the warning though, but I would rather not hesitate when the door of the house gets kicked in. I would rather live to regret it than not. Orion quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado The common understanding of the castle doctrine is pretty far off base, thanks to really crappy news articles on the subjet I suspect. These laws do not remove the requirement that one show that they were reasonably in fear for their life, they extend it as a given, and apply it to being at home when a burglar breaks into that home. You still cannot use deadly force to keep your neighbor's car from being broken into for example. And felony vs. misdemanor has nothing to do with it, apparently also a misreading of the concept of using deadly force against a 'fleeing felon', which in reality has to be provable to a jury as a clear and imminent danger to the life of others. It is easy to pick a few words from the newspaper or Google, and build up an opinion. The trick is getting a jury to buy your logic after you shoot that trespasser for riding his tricycle on your lawn....[;)] Seriously, if anyone doesn't grasp that the Garner ruling sets the standard, take a class and get the instructor/professor to break it down for you, instead of buying into the notion that you can shoot someone over mere property... might save a lot of grief later.

Sinergy -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/4/2007 7:11:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf You say mere property, I said breaking into my home. There is a difference, and it is huge. You caught strange kids skateboarding in your house? Sinergy

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/4/2007 8:37:53 PM)
Actually I invited them in, it was the cop that broke the door down that I almost shot. Orion quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf You say mere property, I said breaking into my home. There is a difference, and it is huge. You caught strange kids skateboarding in your house? Sinergy

MercTech -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/4/2007 11:21:00 PM)
What I saw was a bulldog takedown of a handcuffed suspect attempting to flee. If I were that officer, I would be nervous too with a bunch of kids at my back with 10lbs of steel and fiberglass in hand and probably being verbally irate at one of their friends being arrested. A respectful attitude with a police officer usually keeps you from being put to the ground and having your hands tied behind you. Stefan

MasterC46910 -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/5/2007 6:36:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears i think the cop was on a power trip and went overboard. They were skateboarding not selling illegal drugs or some other REAL crime. There are laws against skateboarding on crowed sidewalks for a reason. Sidewalks are for the safe travel of pedestrians. Same reason there are laws about riding bicycles on the sidewalk. It is dangerous to pedestrians. When you break a law and put people in harm, that is breaking a real law.

farglebargle -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/5/2007 6:58:53 AM)
AH, so the officer must show that they actually presented a hazard to someone? I say that because of pre-emptive enforcement is a denial of due process. Unlike operators of motor vehicles, Skateboarders did not sign an AGREEMENT to abide by the State's Regulation, did they? Therefore, their ability to use THEIR PROPERTY as THEY SEE FIT is guaranteed.

Alumbrado -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/5/2007 8:12:14 AM)
quote: I would rather talk about the application of things in the real world and not in the classroom. In the real world, those who actually do the job, are taught the realities of using deadly force by instructors at the police academy (usually a practicing criminal attorney, sometimes a professor who is also a veteran cop)... and what they are taught is not your melange' of misunderstood buzz words. But feel free to follow through on your announced intention to ignore that reality, and stick to the media and Google as your authority... I only hope you never have to find out firsthand how completely wrong you are.

KMsAngel -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/5/2007 8:34:55 AM)
over here they have a step up rule in regards to home invasions. if you break into my house bare-handed, i can use a "stick", if u break in with a "stick", i can use a knife. if u have a knife, i can use a gun. very simplistic version, but....

Sinergy -> RE: Too Rough, Or Doing His JOb? (7/5/2007 8:55:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KMsAngel over here they have a step up rule in regards to home invasions. if you break into my house bare-handed, i can use a "stick", if u break in with a "stick", i can use a knife. if u have a knife, i can use a gun. very simplistic version, but.... If they use a skateboard, you can use a bicycle? If they use a bicycle, you can use a canoe? Sinergy p.s. Im trying to get this thread back on topic...

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