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RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/24/2007 10:01:46 AM

subfever

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

i agree in principle, however how do we implement that? The only way i can think of to implement that is to have people (chicken farmers, goat herders, butchers) etc directly involved in the process of all 3 branches. i cannot think of any other way to prevent things from going into secretville over time.

How would we monitor to prevent things like passing legistaion when most of the legislators are on holiday? That kind of government is purely manipulating and circumventing due process. That is no way to pass an amendment. (16th)

The latest gig for clinton and bush etc for instance is to write and execute an EO then there is a time delay to fight it out in the courts and of course during that time delay he gets to violate or ride that cutting edge of violating laws till a ruling comes down saying he cannot.

Its a lot to monitor....

It's really not a lot to monitor. One simple question each year: "Have you used the power of your political office to serve or benefit any person or entity other than the people of United States or the Constitution?" or some similar question.

Fail the test, mandatory resignation. Barred from all future political office. Compensation received for political office must be returned.

Greedy, dishonest people would avoid such a system like the plague, since they couldn't avoid detection. Generally honest people who may otherwise succumb to obscenely lavish payoffs, would decline, knowing full well that they would be unable to pass the next annual test.

Before long, the only people seeking to hold political office would be those seeking to serve the people and the Constitution.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to see all those slick, silver-tongued, lying motherfuckers scatter like the cockroaches they really are? ...

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 21

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/24/2007 10:09:31 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Actually, in the case I'm thinking of, Senators are APPOINTED by the State Legislature, and therefore don't need to worry about the election cycle, or anything.

And if the Senator from New York displeases the Legislature of New York, there WILL BE a new Senator from New York who is obedient to the Legislature of New York.

consider this angle and tell me what you think...

Now i sound like i am trying to sell this idea LOL

Ok here goes.

So now we have the regulatory branch and you have money coming out of every orifice even of your neighbors bodies, hell your last name starts with an R or an M LOL

So now you want to do what they did back on jekyl island and you are going ot manipulate this government into passing legislation to install the federal reserve.

Playing devils advocate how would you/ could you get past the regulators? The way i see it there would be no possible way to get it past the regulators, (short of an invasion and military take over of the country), so it would be logical to go away and use the rest of the world to econimically depress or attrition us into the ground some way along those avenues, but i cannot come up with a way that they would find it worth "investing" in to corrupt literally any part of our governemnt at that point, well with exception to the military maybe to create a coup. i am really not trying to sell this but it is fun looking for loop holes in it just for kicks to see if it can even work on the surface LOL

_____________________________

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Post #: 22

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/24/2007 10:19:25 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

i agree in principle, however how do we implement that?   The only way i can think of to implement that is to have people (chicken farmers, goat herders, butchers) etc directly involved in the process of all 3 branches. i cannot think of any other way to prevent things from going into secretville over time.

How would we monitor to prevent things like passing legistaion when most of the legislators are on holiday?    That kind of government is purely manipulating and circumventing due process.   That is no way to pass an amendment.   (16th)

The latest gig for clinton and bush etc for instance is to write and execute an EO then there is a time delay to fight it out in the courts and of course during that time delay he gets to violate or ride that cutting edge of violating laws till a ruling comes down saying he cannot.

Its a lot to monitor....

It's really not a lot to monitor. One simple question each year: "Have you used the power of your political office to serve or benefit any person or entity other than the people of United States or the Constitution?" or some similar question.

Fail the test, mandatory resignation. Barred from all future political office. Compensation received for political office must be returned.

Greedy, dishonest people would avoid such a system like the plague, since they couldn't avoid detection. Generally honest people who may otherwise succumb to obscenely lavish payoffs, would decline, knowing full well that they would be unable to pass the next annual test.

Before long, the only people seeking to hold political office would be those seeking to serve the people and the Constitution.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to see all those slick, silver-tongued, lying motherfuckers scatter like the cockroaches they really are? ...

i think the founding fathers basically made a government thinking that for the most part at least part of our governemnt would be faithful to the constitution and keep the remaining parts in line. Unfortunately that is not the case.   i feel whatever system we use in the end must assume that government will use any avenue to possible for their personal gain and there fore agree that we need a foolproof system to prevent that.

Hmm ok...   here is what i could envision in this circumstance.   The problem is that people can be trained to pass lie detector tests quite easily so how can we make that accountable?

i would envision some kind of pact being made. It could be on the order of a job, promotion etc and be delayed beyond the persons term in office.

So if i were gw i would have tonz of legal docs drawn up that pay off all my buddies after 8 years is up.   i am not sure how we could track all that?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 23

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/24/2007 10:34:03 AM

Arpig

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quote:

There is no way one person like Ted Kennedy should be serving for fourty five years!

Well his constituants keep re-electing him...maybe they like him

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Post #: 24

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/24/2007 10:37:50 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

RealOne, I'd be in favor of anything that gave The People more oversite over our government!
Now, how do we get rid of those Lobbyists on "K" street?

well we need business and i think we have to take into consideration like many other things in life its a nescesay to an economy....

If you were a lobbyist with a trillion bucks at your disposal you bought all of conress, all of the house and judicial and they ran a law through the prez approved it etc etc and now its the regulators turn. (i love the idea of farmers and grocery clerks as regulators) LOL

So now its the regulators turn to review the legislation and either agree that is is constitutional and if so great it runs through and becomes law. If on the other hand the regulators determine this is not a real good thing then they send it back and the lobbiest just lost a trillion bucks... my gut feeling is that there would be much less lobying LOL

ya think?

oh and we are talking about 2500 of them LOL regulators that is!

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 7/24/2007 10:39:46 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 25

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/24/2007 10:43:29 AM

subfever

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Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Hmm ok... here is what i could envision in this circumstance. The problem is that people can be trained to pass lie detector tests quite easily so how can we make that accountable?

http://deception.crimepsychblog.com/?p=92

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 26

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/24/2007 11:06:33 AM

Real0ne

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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Hmm ok... here is what i could envision in this circumstance. The problem is that people can be trained to pass lie detector tests quite easily so how can we make that accountable?

http://deception.crimepsychblog.com/?p=92

kool technology...

Do you think that will ever be defeatabke like the lie detector?

The next question is who do we trust to conduct th4e tests and what infrastructure and instuments of government should we use to oversee this?

It certainly would be much cheaper than 2500 peeps

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 27

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/24/2007 12:06:29 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

RealOne, I'd be in favor of anything that gave The People more oversite over our government!
Now, how do we get rid of those Lobbyists on "K" street?

well we need business and i think we have to take into consideration like many other things in life its a nescesay to an economy....

If you were a lobbyist with a trillion bucks at your disposal you bought all of conress, all of the house and judicial and they ran a law through the prez approved it etc etc and now its the regulators turn. (i love the idea of farmers and grocery clerks as regulators) LOL

So now its the regulators turn to review the legislation and either agree that is is constitutional and if so great it runs through and becomes law. If on the other hand the regulators determine this is not a real good thing then they send it back and the lobbiest just lost a trillion bucks... my gut feeling is that there would be much less lobying LOL

ya think?

oh and we are talking about 2500 of them LOL regulators that is!

RealOne, agreed.
And I think there should be a limit on how many lawyers there could be in govt.
It's just WAY out of wack now.
I don't think any of the signers of the Declaration of Independance were "lawyers."

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Post #: 28

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/24/2007 3:46:17 PM

luckydog1

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What would prevent the lobbying of the "regulators"? It would seem like a boon to lobbyists, to have lots more opprotunities. But there is no reason to think that they would be any different than the people elected now, is there? I always thought that constitution was intended to be able to be understood by any High school graduate, which back then was the equivilent of a Liberal arts bachelors degree today.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 29

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/24/2007 3:53:04 PM

luckydog1

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Popeye, Thomas Jefferson (the author of the Declaration of Independance)was a lawyer....24 of the signers were lawyers. http://www.usconstitution.net/declarsigndata.html

As were almost half of the Constitutional signers (many of the same people). http://www.usconstitution.net/constframedata.html

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 30

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/24/2007 9:18:47 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

What would prevent the lobbying of the "regulators"? It would seem like a boon to lobbyists, to have lots more opprotunities. But there is no reason to think that they would be any different than the people elected now, is there? I always thought that constitution was intended to be able to be understood by any High school graduate, which back then was the equivilent of a Liberal arts bachelors degree today.

Because of the delay of "standard" government operations.

basically the regulators are the final stumbling block to get anything cast in concrete for the american people. If we are unhappy with what they did "we the people" can call an immediate vote on paper and with receipts for accountability, to vote them out and vote new ones in. This can go on indefinitely if we the people are unhappy with what is being done in government. So the regulators could literally all be voted out within hours of a bad choice and new ones put in. either on a county by county basis or nationally. The new group would now have to look at the legislation we the people were unhappy with and send it back for fixing or rework. The ability to immediately ditch them and put in a new crew that will need time to get acclamated etc etc will really imo throw a nasty curve ball into the lets rush bullshit through government as it is now.

The regulators would approve(vote) among themselves on all legislation and supreme court decisions as to its constitutionalty. If the legislation is 100% constitutional then standard voting should apply. Who voted how and a complete set of documentation of the bill would be diseminated to each county and via the net. The people now have the opportunity to vote at any time on literally anything and it goes into record as such on paper with a numbered paper receipt.. The people can see if the regulators are maintaining constitutionality and read the minutes of regulator business to determine if our regulators are correctly doing their job Any legislation can be brought back for review by the people by vote 50.1:49.9 except our inalienable rights that should remain the same voting ratio as it is now. Resubmission is the regulators job.

i personally cannot figure out a way that the bankers or big money lobbyists could circumvent it because of the delay and our ability to pull back any legislation or court decisions combined with the ability to immediately change over people so fast for literally no reason if we desire. Even the regulators could not cheat i dont think?

So here you are you have a trillion bucks and you want to get legislation ramrodded through...even with all that money how would you defeat a system like this?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 31

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/24/2007 9:27:29 PM

Real0ne

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i can understand civil, admiralty, martial law etc changing at least somewhat to meet the demands of a changing society, however the immutable laws never change, our inalienable rights.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 32

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/24/2007 11:26:36 PM

luckydog1

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Hmm, I don't really see it. It seems unreasonable that you could call a vote in hours and have a replacement. Most people would not even get a chance to vote in a few hours, and certainly not put any serious thought into it (within a few hours). I honestly do not understand why you think you would get a different voting result from the "regulator" elections, than from the regular elections. Any legislation that has the ability to beat a filibuster is going to probably pass the "regulators". I think it is also physically impossible to vote a paper ballot over the Net. This would also require a major Constitutional change as the Supreme Court is defined as the highest law of the land, so substituting a "regulator " house to rule on Constitutionality, would require major change. What would the role of the USSC be? This would in effect create an elected Supreme Court, and I tend to think elected judges (at least ones that have to keep running for re-election) are a bad idea, as there is a huge tendancy to rule for popularity instead of Legality, hence minority (not just racial minorities either) rights get trampled. Also you would have to do away with the right to a secret ballot, and I disagree with that. I consider that an important and cherished right.

If I could propose a change to the Constitution, it would be to transform the House of Representatives into a parlimentary body, and keep everything else basically the same. Your state would have represntation in the Senate, which was modifyied previously to direct election of Senators. And the House would be a national election (vote for the party and the party assigns the representatives based on the % of vote they got), allowing 3rd parties just as much chance as anyone to get some seats, and an actuall voice at the table, to push thier ideas. I would expect every national Party to get some seats, even people you support( just teasing), and actually get brought into the process. I think this would expose new parties and help them grow, and more importantly allow lots of Good ideas to percolate up and be enacted.
Any thoughts on this idea?

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 33

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/24/2007 11:41:50 PM

Real0ne

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Ok i am going to sleep on it, but meanwhile you did not mention how we prevent corruption from creeping in and that is a huge part of my focus with this. i glanced over it and was not able to immediately calculate how to keep out corruption... So how would it work that way? maybe elaborate on that a bit as there is so much that needs to be cleaned up with this government we need a way to systemnatically do that too...

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 34

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/24/2007 11:59:27 PM

luckydog1

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Any system can be corrupted. That is not even a reasonable goal to work towards. Open, transparent Government is a possability, and should be strived for. Active citizenry and open, transpareant Gov are the only solutions I see to corruption.

I honestly think an average joe could take a bribe just as easily as a lawyer or anyone else, and your idea would do nothing about corruption. It would be much harder to police the 2500 ish new politicians than it is now.

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 7/25/2007 12:00:33 AM >

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 35

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/25/2007 6:02:25 AM

farglebargle

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With a situation where, like now, Alberto Gonzales is confident in his lies to the Congress, because he's been told he won't go to jail, exactly how are ethics and honesty supposed to be enforced?

When the Courts won't do their job, to The People have the responsibility to step up, and make the crooks dance the hemp fandango?

Or is the complete removal of the broken government, and (as per the Declaration of Independence ) a wholesale replacement of the Constitution required?

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RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/25/2007 9:08:13 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Do you think that will ever be defeatabke like the lie detector?

Screw up the baseline questions (by thinking of appropriate lies) and the tester would not be able to discern whether your brain functions a certain way in response to being asked questions.

The reason I do not see it being functional in law enforcement is all it takes is one exception to the rule to throw reasonable doubt into it. For example, a truly sociopathic individual often does not register when they are telling a lie or telling the truth; they dont really perceive a distinction between the two.

It is a great idea, but I dont see it workable.

Sinergy

edited to get rid of a Sinergy

< Message edited by Sinergy -- 7/25/2007 9:09:06 AM >

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(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 37

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/28/2007 1:17:34 AM

Real0ne

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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

With a situation where, like now, Alberto Gonzales is confident in his lies to the Congress, because he's been told he won't go to jail, exactly how are ethics and honesty supposed to be enforced?

When the Courts won't do their job, to The People have the responsibility to step up, and make the crooks dance the hemp fandango?

Or is the complete removal of the broken government, and (as per the Declaration of Independence ) a wholesale replacement of the Constitution required?

i think a wholesale enforcement of the constitution is what is required. i was really surprised tonite while watching a scifi show called stargate sg1. The cute blonde was somehow interdimensionally transported back in time where the us was in a state of matial law. It showed everything from media manipulation total government corruption and a police state. The cool thing is - is that she was a celebrity for saving earth and they wanted to put her on tv to do spots for the government to make them look good.

Well she made this plea on tv during a live interview and and looked right square into the camera and said "when will the american people have had enough" "we can take our government back". well as the show goes it never made it out to the people but it was definitely directed at the audience to give us a message. (i loved it!) LOL

Nope we just need to take the cositution and enforce it. Many laws have been made that slice into our constitution such that over time what was a wide and clear amendment is now been sliced so thing that it is or is nearly nonexistant. i think we need to stat with the inalienable and wedge them back over and literally go over ands review all law through out this country because it has gotten so convoluted that you can be equally guilty and innocent at the same time for anything in question. Thus everything is a judgement call, thus once again a breeding ground for corruption.

The constitution is really quite clear especially when looking at the notes that our framers left us as to their reasoning for things being the way they made them. Such as a citizen militia which we are direly in need of today.

i think we have a good idea where we went wrong in limiting our government in a manner that they could not take over as they have and i think we need to make a few more amendments to insure it cannot happen again.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 7/28/2007 1:21:13 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 38

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/28/2007 1:27:27 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Do you think that will ever be defeatabke like the lie detector?

Screw up the baseline questions (by thinking of appropriate lies) and the tester would not be able to discern whether your brain functions a certain way in response to being asked questions.

The reason I do not see it being functional in law enforcement is all it takes is one exception to the rule to throw reasonable doubt into it. For example, a truly sociopathic individual often does not register when they are telling a lie or telling the truth; they dont really perceive a distinction between the two.

It is a great idea, but I dont see it workable.

Sinergy

edited to get rid of a Sinergy

yah thats where i keep bumping my head as well. i love the idea of elecrtonic voting too but that opens up to soooo much fraud that i think the only way to go is paper and receipt.

It seems to me they use the example of the sociopathic mind to literally program someone to defeat at least anything we have for truth to date...

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 39

RE: Government Wiz Kids Speak Up! - 7/28/2007 1:51:13 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Any system can be corrupted. That is not even a reasonable goal to work towards. Open, transparent Government is a possability, and should be strived for. Active citizenry and open, transpareant Gov are the only solutions I see to corruption.

I honestly think an average joe could take a bribe just as easily as a lawyer or anyone else, and your idea would do nothing about corruption. It would be much harder to police the 2500 ish new politicians than it is now.

i agree but how do we keep it open? Squealers! Shit loads of them. The more people you have the more difficult it is to corrupt them all to achieve an agenda. i would say that each state has roughlyu 50 counties. Take one person from each county and elect them in to be a regulator. This means farmers and butchers and candle stick makers not insider professional politicians who spend their whol life trying to hold onto power and circumvent our government anyway they can to achieve this end.

Combined with the delay, the ability to retract for rexamination the rapid ability to rotate in a new crew at a whim, i simply do not see how the can become corrupted to the point that it will change an outcome.

My question to those who feel this would not work is to present a scenario... i have gone over this in my head and just due to the numbers, who would be elected, the delays and retraction abilities, i simply cannot come up with a way to beat the system except some kind of total take over.

The regulators only regulate they have no lobby power. All they can do is find fault with something and send it back. If for some reason the people find fault with their handling of it and the regulators fail to retract we then take a national vote and kick them all out and start over with all new regulators.

The bottom line is that we have no real power or teeth right now to police the average joe from taking a bribe. Of course the average joe would take a bribe but is much less likely to do such a thing than a career polititcian. i think you are thinking of the average joe as a career politician and this regulator branch is designed to keep new honest joes constantly moving in and questionable or dishonest joes out. of course in addition to the other safegaurds. retraction and delay, quick voting, low ratios etc

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 40

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