Sensing limits

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HypnoticDan -> Sensing limits (7/24/2007 2:55:56 PM)
I unabashedly admit to being novice at most (all?) things BDSM. I've been reading the literature, taking the time to learn to properly use the few toys that I have, share my growing knowledge with others, and get out to meet the local people in the scene. In spite of all this - or perhaps because of it - one thing really concerns me of late. Let's say, for example, that I'm spanking a sub. I understand to start out light and warm up the skin, then a little harder or faster and work up, taking occaisional breaks to rest my hand and check on how she's feeling. At a certain point it becomes intense enough that she may yell. Even if it's her first vocalization my first instinct is to stop. I know she's not using the safeword. I know she knows the safeword. I know from seeing plenty of BDSM scenes before that yelling isn't any reason to stop dead. I guess my trouble is that we're both so new at this that I don't know if she's taking too much to make me proud and doing herself real harm. I'm concerned that I might miss the warning signs because I'm new at this, too. It's hard for me to distinguish play-ouch from real-ouch, even though I know the safewords are in place etc etc. I think next time I will pause, ask her what the safeword is, ask her how she's doing, and then resume if it sounds good. Still, I would feel better if a few of you tops & bottoms would weigh in with your thoughts. Incidentally, I keep a first aid kit for anything immediate and, thankfully, the hospital is just two blocks away.

SexyRed -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 2:58:29 PM)
hmmmm...that is a great question. I would say to stop every so often, and ask how she is feeling, but don't destroy the mood, such as saying, So, my slut/toy/insert word here, how are you feeling right now? And like everything else, communicate before, during and after.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 2:59:13 PM)
I think you're playing it very safe, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, I don't think you need to worry quite so much- when she yells out, you ca pause, rest your hand on her and ask if she wants more. I personally have learned that asking "Are you ok?" is a really bad question to ask someone, specially if they are service oriented in addition to being a bottom. You can even make it evil by chuckling and showing you enjoy her cries, and still ask if she wants more in a cruel voice. In reality you're still checking in, but you're keeping a particular mood going. It won't take too long to learn the difference between bad cry and good cry and it's perfectly fine to have that initial instinct to pull away- just let it pass and keep going.

MadRabbit -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 3:04:32 PM)
The only advice I can offer is to loosen up a little bit. When I was completely new to this, I was so caught up in endless safety lectures and fear of "Death by overspanking" that I was on pins and needles every moment. Couldnt relax, couldnt enjoy myself, overthought everything, "Am I doing this right? Am I doing this wrong? Could it be both? Oh my God I dont know!". Finnally, I realized that I am in fact a competant human being and that the huge scare the safety Nazis had put into me wasnt as bad as I was overblowing it to be. I didnt have to check her pulse after every spanking. Its good to have a first aid kit and good to know where the local hospital is, but its not a huge mega ultra concern when it comes to a light flogging, candle wax, and spankings.

Rover -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 3:08:11 PM)
We've all been there, Dan. There's nothing unusual about what you're feeling or experiencing, and the truth is that you'll just work your way through it over time, together. I found it particularly helpful to conduct a "debriefing" the day after a scene, and to thoroughly discuss what she was feeling, when she was feeling it, what her thoughts were (if any) as they related to what was happening to her at the time, etc. The more you understand her, and understand what she's feeling and thinking, where her head space is, as it relates to what you're doing to her... well, the better you'll be able to actually manage the scene (and the better you'll feel about it as well). Or, stated differently, you'll feel more in control because you will be more in control. John

HypnoticDan -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 3:11:04 PM)
SR - I find I communicate very little before, a moderate amount during, and mostly during the aftercare/post-coital whatever. shrug It raises another concern - I can't say for sure if she's ever reached "subspace" and I'd hate to ruin the mood by trying to talk to her when forming coherent thought is already getting difficult. (I hear that can just ruin it for some subs.) I guess I should not concern myself with things like subspace and take it one step at a time. :T LA - Good point about the service oriented bottoms. I'm thinking I might say "I've got more in store for you. Are you ready for it?" if she says no then I'd reply "That's fine, you did great, I'll just save the rest for next time" which turns it into a bit of a mindfuck. As much as I like your suggestion, "Do you want more" still sounds too much like "how may I serve you?" in my ears.

HypnoticDan -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 3:14:43 PM)
Rover - ...and the knowledge that you've all been there before is exactly why I'm leaning on you now. Maybe I need to learn to conduct better debriefings.

EclipseAbove -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 3:16:03 PM)
I think you are playing it on the safe side and that is the best way to go. It won't take you long with the same partner to recognize exactly where they are and how they are doing. I would encourage the idea of not breaking the mood while you stop and "check in". I often take small breaks and dramatically "check my work" which only heightens the anticipation and creates a more devious atmosphere. But of course, I'm also using the time to check their skin, etc. and get a better feel of how they are doing. You can even do some light teasing if the sub makes noise/cries out/whatever. Something like "Oh, that hit got your attention, didn't it?" Keeps the mood going and gives them an opportunity to respond within the mood as well.

SexyRed -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 3:19:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HypnoticDan SR - I find I communicate very little before, a moderate amount during, and mostly during the aftercare/post-coital whatever. shrug It raises another concern - I can't say for sure if she's ever reached "subspace" and I'd hate to ruin the mood by trying to talk to her when forming coherent thought is already getting difficult. (I hear that can just ruin it for some subs.) I guess I should not concern myself with things like subspace and take it one step at a time. :T I find when I am deeply in subspace, I really don't want to be asked questions, unless they are gared towards the scene. As you said, it could ruin my mood. We can all tell you our experiences, but it will not matter because your sub has her own reactions. I just still recommend to talk afterwards and kind of go over what worked, did not work, etc. I also seriously would not worry all that much unless you are doing something very edgy, which could be dangerous. Spanking is usually not too much of an issue!!!

HypnoticDan -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 3:43:04 PM)
SR - Sooo... you're saying I shouldn't spank her with one of these? http://img.epinions.com/images/opti/2c/35/pr-Cooking_Tools-Chantal_Kitchen_Tools_Stainless_Spaghetti_Fork-resized80.jpg

imthatacheyouhav -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 3:44:55 PM)
I personally think stopping and asking if one is ok ruins the mood...you have a safe word...and thats to let you know she is not ok....

SexyRed -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 3:45:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HypnoticDan SR - Sooo... you're saying I shouldn't spank her with one of these? http://img.epinions.com/images/opti/2c/35/pr-Cooking_Tools-Chantal_Kitchen_Tools_Stainless_Spaghetti_Fork-resized80.jpg LOL...well...I don't know how much fun that little item would be; I was thinking more of your hand, a flogger, paddle, that kind of thing. But never say never....

PONYSEEKER -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 4:01:08 PM)
Great to see that you are playing safe and reaching out with concerns. As long as you keep your own emotions in check and keep your attention on the sub it wont take you long to figure out what is okay and what is not. As a scene progresses feedback from the sub becomes les and less reliable and at some point you are going to find yourself in a position where you do not feel comfortable with what is going on and of course at that point if your instinct are telling you that it is too extream then stop. If you are using the same sub over and over then you will very quickly be able to tell from her body exacly what is going on. I for instance keep a lookout on my subs breathing especially the way she inhales. I have found that she inhales much faster when its aproaching the edge. I also look for a confused dazed deer in headlights stare that indicates to me that I cant trust her opinion at that point. I talk a couple of days later about the scene to find out what went right or wrong. Every woman however is different as to how they express limitiation and somtimes if the sub is in the mood for it you have to be the one that puts a stop to it otherwise they will go on and on. Its really allmost dangerouse for a Dom to tell you exacly what they look for because it can be a huge mistake to think that one woman will act like another. I do know from personal experience that when you start out you will be amazed at what a woman can take and want to take and if the woman you are playing with is stepping out from vanilla then you both probably will be in for a shock however take care in how you talk about the scene afterwards because believe it or not they are sometimes really amazed as well and although they might really love it have problems picturing themselves like that and mixed with sub drop can be really bad so try not to act as though you are amazed or say things that cause them to question there appearence. It takes a while for them to proccess it all and come back with a reliable feed back so if they are new you might need to give it three or four days before you really get a good solid answer.

LadyHeart -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 4:32:43 PM)
The situation you describe is why I use active elicitation of safewords. I will say "what colour are you?" at intervals. If the response is Green it means they are happy and they want more; if Orange, it's getting uncomfortable; Red is close to safewording. It often surprises me how a sub who is screaming and wriggling will still say Green. As you get to know your sub better, you'll need to use this less often. I also allow a sub to say Green before I've asked if I'm doing a flogging for example. I take it as feedback rather than Topping from the bottom. ("You hit like a girl" gets a different response, lol!) The only time this becomes less accurate is when they are close to subspace - the response is often slow and "dreamy" or even non exisistent, but it's usually obvious from the body language (all droopy and relaxed) that they've drifted off. :)) LH

nyrisa -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 7:46:20 PM)
I like the Green/Yellow/Red words, too, speaking as the spankee, that is. I have never had to say Red yet, but sometimes I want a moment to catch my breath, as when things get very intense I sometimes feel like I am about to hyperventilate. I have said Yellow before, just to get that momentary breather. Even Yellow seems too harsh to me, though. I have thought about requesting the word "Breathe" be used by either of us; me if I need a breather, or by him if he notices before I do, that I am losing my breath control and need a reminder to pace my breathing.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 8:02:12 PM)
quote: It raises another concern - I can't say for sure if she's ever reached "subspace" and I'd hate to ruin the mood by trying to talk to her when forming coherent thought is already getting difficult. (I hear that can just ruin it for some subs.) I guess I should not concern myself with things like subspace and take it one step at a time. :T I'll say that I'm perfectly fine with ruining someone's happy space in order for me to be sure that things are ok. Tough shit on them- they don't like it, they don't have to play with me again. "Oh, she's such a bad top, she didn't let me fly cuz she wanted to make sure I was ok!!!" IMO there's always time for another scene to fly away on and if I can't enjoy the scene and be secure it's going in a good direction, I'd rather not have it at all.

soultoshare -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 8:07:33 PM)
I have color safewords also. I've never used them, and I've had some seriously intense spankings. I am not a noisy reactor to stimulus, so it's all about my partner knowing what my body responses are....believe it or not, i've actually fallen asleep during a spanking.....not because it was wimpy, but rather because the higher the intensity, the more relaxed I get. Obviously, there is a great deal of trust, and knowledge of my body's physical reactions on my partners side, but we have been playing for well over a year. I've never hit subspace, but rather, the plane I end up on is equally as enjoyable. As others have said, knowing her reactions to stimuli being applied will come with time. Talking to me does tend to interrupt the mood of the spanking.....breaks my concentration. It is good that you are taking time to check on her, and getting her feedback about what she's feeling. Just continue on that path, follow your instincts, communication is a very important factor here. Ask specific questions that you want answers for, not just the general "How did you feel during....". That way you can both get answers. Good luck, and enjoy!

mistoferin -> RE: Sensing limits (7/24/2007 8:21:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EclipseAbove I think you are playing it on the safe side and that is the best way to go. It won't take you long with the same partner to recognize exactly where they are and how they are doing. I would encourage the idea of not breaking the mood while you stop and "check in". I often take small breaks and dramatically "check my work" which only heightens the anticipation and creates a more devious atmosphere. But of course, I'm also using the time to check their skin, etc. and get a better feel of how they are doing. You can even do some light teasing if the sub makes noise/cries out/whatever. Something like "Oh, that hit got your attention, didn't it?" Keeps the mood going and gives them an opportunity to respond within the mood as well. I agree with this. The conversation has to keep the mood going. If a Dom kept stopping to ask me what color I was or if I was ok, quite honestly I'd just call it quits. It would be far more frustration than it was worth to me.

ProlificNeeds -> RE: Sensing limits (7/25/2007 2:33:26 AM)
quote: I personally have learned that asking "Are you ok?" is a really bad question to ask someone, specially if they are service oriented in addition to being a bottom. I couldn't agree more. Phrasing is a big key to getting an accurate answer, at least I know it is for me. If the question is phrased in such a way that I feel answering one way over the other will create disappointment, I often try to push myself past what may be safe at the time. If the top implies -they- want more.. then I will feel bad if I express I've hit my tolerance level. Being offered an alternative worked for me, I could choose, taking more, or if I 'couldn't handle it' I was offered an alternative source of service, so I wouldn't feel bad. Something to the effect of "Do you want more, or are you ready to give me my massage yet?" insert food, sexual activity ect, something that focused on continuing to service the top so that it seems more like a 'change of pace' and less like a 'halt'. My first experience with striking(spanking and flogging), was to be told to number each blow from 1-10 as to how much it hurt. This was as much for my top's benefit as my own, to help him guage what I could handle and what I couldn't. He also said he learned to associate certain pitches or reactions with each range in that 1-10 scale. I'm sure I couldn't identify my own responses that well but he seemed to be able to do it.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Sensing limits (7/25/2007 7:48:37 AM)
Part of what has been a challenge for me in this lifestyle is overcoming programming. Most men are programmed to not hurt women. Most women are trained to serve guests and be the hostess. "Getting over" these programs to allow for the Tb, Ds and Ms dynamics to take affect takes time. Be patient with yourself. There will also come a time where you will simply have to trust the bottom to say when enough is enough. Having trust in your partner is of utmost importance. If she's done well up till now, she will most likely do well when you push a little further. Master Fire

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