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RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 7:29:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

A question if i may. Where does the line fall between a male who is assertive enough to meet Your requirements for a reasonable assertive submissive, as against a submissive who is so assertive that he becomes too much hard work ?

Is there a cut off point You use ? and if so how is the submissive expected to know it ?
Or is this a process You agree on during his training ?

Do you mind if I toss in my two dollars on this issue?

I want a slave who is valuable and part of his value is his being able to function well in the world around us. If he has a job he needs to be able to feel good about it and to have the respect of those he works with and for usually this means being a go-getter which is another way of saying being properly or correctly assertive.

In my private life it means having a slave who serves without needing to be ordered or scheduled to do so it. That also can be his assertiveness over the environment (knowing when to mow or clean) as well as his assertiveness toward comforting me (seeing that I've had a crappy day and offering me water, chocolate or a back rub or even a flogger).

Before that a sub can be assertive in how he interacts with me by showing similar motivation to do those things that are part of how I evaluate a potential. It can be as simple as doing what I require -- a formal application, responding to my questions -- or it can go beyond that and really impress me by asking questions or expanding on the ideas in the application in a tasteful way. All of that could be seen as being assertive and active in the process because he's putting himself out there to prove his worth.

By the way I'd expect the same from a women wishing to join my household. I try very hard not to be sexist in these regards.

This is well articulated. I also know my weaknesses as a person - the idea that all D's are paragons of perfection being BS, my weaknesses are lack of organization and consistancy - so for me, assertiveness about scheduling and organizational issues extends far enough to telling me what to do and where to be - I think it's a shame that only hollywood morons and corporate raiders get personal assistants, and I decided I should have them too.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 8:19:28 AM

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Hi Politesub,

Thanks for the follow up example--it helps :)

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 8:29:04 AM

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thetammyjo......Nice explaination Ma`am thank You.

Sea...Your very welcome.

Edited for spelling !!!!!!!!

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 8/2/2007 8:30:08 AM >

(in reply to undergroundsea)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 8:54:35 AM

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(Not in reply to anyone in particular.) I am reading everyone's words with great interest.   If nothing else, everyone's difffering points of view proves that there are as many ways "to do" BDSM as there are people claiming to participate in it.

Personally, I enjoy the "doormat" sub. Teaching him/her to stand up for themselves, to think for themselves and become the best they can be in all areas of their life is a challenge to and for me.   I would add at this point I am a PreSchool teacher....guess "raising children to be independant" is part of my make up. I do find those who refuse to grow up a drain and cut them loose after all avenues of "training" have failed. (Being an eternal optomist and pretty damn sure of my methods, I usually don't cut them loose until I am just about insane.....but that's my cross to bear)

Of course those who already stand up for themselves are not excluded from my life.   They are just a different challenge to master.

I am going to miss these forum when school starts again. Thank you to everyone who takes the time to share their ideas.

(in reply to petdave)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 9:10:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

There is room for interpretation for what it means to be easy or a challenge.

What we have in play here is overcomplication. What Akasha is trying to say (IMO) is that she wants an *interesting* man. Naturally, being submissive doesn't guarantee that, and in many instances its an encumbrance.

The truth is that BDSM is not foundational to a good, LTR. Just as you can't build a LTR on sex, you can't build it on BDSM either. BDSM and sex are important concerns, truly, but they are secondary. To overly lead with either in the courtship process is a mistake.

(in reply to undergroundsea)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 9:47:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

There is room for interpretation for what it means to be easy or a challenge.

What we have in play here is overcomplication. What Akasha is trying to say (IMO) is that she wants an *interesting* man. Naturally, being submissive doesn't guarantee that, and in many instances its an encumbrance.

The truth is that BDSM is not foundational to a good, LTR. Just as you can't build a LTR on sex, you can't build it on BDSM either. BDSM and sex are important concerns, truly, but they are secondary. To overly lead with either in the courtship process is a mistake.

I don't think it's that complicated now that I look back at it. I said:

"What he was getting at is that they (subs) were ready and willing to serve and just looking for someone (sometimes, looking for ANYONE) to serve, vs. someone who was not interested in finding someone to serve, but found themselves unable to resist serving once the connection was there."

Too many subs are looking to serve as quickly and as easily as possible, and often without knowing much about a woman at all. The woman is a means to and end (he wants to get his fetish serviced). Not enough submissives take the approach to court and get to know a woman completely on a vanilla platform, never bring up kink, let her control the pace, and let her uncover his fetishes at her pace -- this is the way it would work with a vanilla guy, simply because he has no kinky agenda. She has to find out, from the start, if/how/when he might have some willingness to explore this sexuality -- or, if he perhaps was kinky but it did not show on the surface.

Akasha

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(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 9:55:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

There is room for interpretation for what it means to be easy or a challenge.

What we have in play here is overcomplication. What Akasha is trying to say (IMO) is that she wants an *interesting* man. Naturally, being submissive doesn't guarantee that, and in many instances its an encumbrance.

The truth is that BDSM is not foundational to a good, LTR. Just as you can't build a LTR on sex, you can't build it on BDSM either. BDSM and sex are important concerns, truly, but they are secondary. To overly lead with either in the courtship process is a mistake.

I don't think it's that complicated now that I look back at it. I said:

"What he was getting at is that they (subs) were ready and willing to serve and just looking for someone (sometimes, looking for ANYONE) to serve, vs. someone who was not interested in finding someone to serve, but found themselves unable to resist serving once the connection was there."

Too many subs are looking to serve as quickly and as easily as possible, and often without knowing much about a woman at all. The woman is a means to and end (he wants to get his fetish serviced). Not enough submissives take the approach to court and get to know a woman completely on a vanilla platform, never bring up kink, let her control the pace, and let her uncover his fetishes at her pace -- this is the way it would work with a vanilla guy, simply because he has no kinky agenda. She has to find out, from the start, if/how/when he might have some willingness to explore this sexuality -- or, if he perhaps was kinky but it did not show on the surface.

Akasha

There is demographic-induced desperation.

While it shouldn't excuse any and all behavior, I can't fault them all the time either. My husband and I met at a munch and never even sorted who was D or s or anything before exchanging phone numbers - we simply had too many other things in common to get to it. But there was certainly a huge relief on his part to find out that I'm kinked in a Domward direction and it was a huge part of early discussion and exploration and I don't think we'd be together without that fundamental compatibility.

Talking to him about his experiences and how HARD it really is, to line up all the relationship goodies in one person - his kink play had been exclusively with other men at that point, his romantic forays with women - because he simply had given up on the expectation of actually finding a woman who WAS a bondage top let alone assertive and dominant and into control and more elaborate physical play. Knowing that these were needs on his part, I don't see why not talk about it early on.

I gave up on vanilla for the same reason. I am not excited by "conversions" because I was with someone I loved at one point who is not convertible at all - and life's too short. I like to know if I at least am getting a cat or a dog, not just a thing with fur.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 10:02:47 AM

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Not all Dominas want the vanilla approach though. Some just seek a service submissive or a playmate. Some want to cut straight to the chase without the thrills. As i said to someone yesterday, one of the most direct profiles i read simply said. " Clean my house and then we play " Thats direct and to the point, leaving no room for misunderstandings.

i must admit the idea of just being slowly drawn into the lifestyle is very powerful, imho.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 10:05:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Not all Dominas want the vanilla approach though. Some just seek a service submissive or a playmate. Some want to cut straight to the chase without the thrills. As i said to someone yesterday, one of the most direct profiles i read simply said. " Clean my house and then we play " Thats direct and to the point, leaving no room for misunderstandings.

i must admit the idea of just being slowly drawn into the lifestyle is very powerful, imho.

When dommes want the approach you suggest, they ask for it. Would you recommend a submissive offer no strings housecleaning up front to a woman he does not know desires that? I see your point, but not sure how it relates, since in this case the femdom is dictating how she wants to be approached.

Akasha

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(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 10:48:10 AM

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A very subtle point that i had not thought of Ma`am. Would it be wrong for a submissive to approach a Dominant at a munch and offer his/her services, or should one wait to be approached ? i dont know the answer to Your question so im batting it back to You, if thats okay ?

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 10:50:18 AM

michaelOfGeorgia

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good question...most of the people i've seen at the munches already have a sub/slave...so i wouldn't want to interfere with their duties myself.

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RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 10:57:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

A very subtle point that i had not thought of Ma`am. Would it be wrong for a submissive to approach a Dominant at a munch and offer his/her services, or should one wait to be approached ? i dont know the answer to Your question so im batting it back to You, if thats okay ?

A sub at a munch, if he is interested in a woman there, should:

* Approach her politely and make friendly conversation, ask her about her interests (about things outside of kink), smile, be cordial, be witty. Listen for common interests and try to sense of there's a little mutual connection (is she interested?)

* Do not go from woman to woman so blatantly that it's obvious you are hitting up everyone and using the same approach just waiting for someone to show interest. It's cheap.

* Don't offer your services, no. Wait to see what she asks in that realm. If anything, ask if she'd like to get together for coffee some time to continue the chat if you feel there's a connection.

I can't stress how much subs just need to break it down to good old fashioned "conversationalist tactics". If they feel they are ill equipped to do it, then practice networking in other areas (ie profesionally), learn the art of small talk, or bring a buddy so the pressure is lessened and chat "in groups" when the pressure is high.

I think any "offer of services" to a woman that is a relative stranger has a 95% "blow up in your face" chance vs. a 5% success rate. There are so many ways it can come off wrong. Or just rub a woman the wrong way if she's heard it 5 times already that night. Granted, if there's MAJOR chemitry and sparks are flying, then there is very little a sub can say *wrong* to a woman who's interested. Learn to be a judge of chemistry. Body language, eye contact, hints, etc.

Akasha

< Message edited by AAkasha -- 8/2/2007 11:01:50 AM >

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(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 10:59:33 AM

michaelOfGeorgia

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i guess standing up at the end of the table and offering to serve the ladies is definately out, huh?

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RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 11:03:45 AM

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Thank You very much for the reply Ma`am. i know most of it seems obvious but never having been to a munch i wasnt sure if there are protocols to follow.

Regards.....politesub

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 11:21:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Thank You very much for the reply Ma`am. i know most of it seems obvious but never having been to a munch i wasnt sure if there are protocols to follow.

Regards.....politesub

The protocols I gave are not formal protocals for munches or for kinky people. You'll note they are protocols for general etiquette. The point is, a submissive man is far likely to crash and burn if he approaches a dominant woman just the same as a vanilla man would. They do not want to be grovelled to, worshipped, or have their kissed by random guys they do not know - unless that's in the rules of the "munch" and they can expect it.

Akasha

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(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 11:25:36 AM

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Nods, i agree about general politeness and manners. i was thinking more as to whom approached whom, or more specificaly " How "

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 4:03:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

There is room for interpretation for what it means to be easy or a challenge.

What we have in play here is overcomplication. What Akasha is trying to say (IMO) is that she wants an *interesting* man. Naturally, being submissive doesn't guarantee that, and in many instances its an encumbrance.

The truth is that BDSM is not foundational to a good, LTR. Just as you can't build a LTR on sex, you can't build it on BDSM either. BDSM and sex are important concerns, truly, but they are secondary. To overly lead with either in the courtship process is a mistake.

That has not been my experience with Fox or with a few others.

We started as Ds, that is our foundation, but I think we are realistic in what that can and should entail in the lives of consenting adults.

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(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 4:09:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

A very subtle point that i had not thought of Ma`am. Would it be wrong for a submissive to approach a Dominant at a munch and offer his/her services, or should one wait to be approached ? i dont know the answer to Your question so im batting it back to You, if thats okay ?

I'd say don't offer service, offer polite and serious attention. Get to know the person a bit. You don't need to become friends or romantic to figure out if she's open to a new relationship.

Ask around about her. Observe her with others, that can be a great clue to the type of dominant she is or so I've been told about myself.

Give her something to observe as you interact with everyone at the munch or the group.

After that in my experience it was a 50/50 chance who was going to approach whom. I approached Fox but Faith, Anna, and Treasure approached me. By approach I mean I asked if they'd be interested in discussing BDSM more privately to see if there was mutual interest; that's pretty much how I was approached too.

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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

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Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 4:14:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

i guess standing up at the end of the table and offering to serve the ladies is definately out, huh?

To signal out the ladies, yes, I think that would be seen as odd.

But let's say you meet at a cafe or buffet style restaurant (the munch here did that for years). You are getting up to refill your drink. Why not ask everyone: I'm getting a drink, does anyone else want a refill? This places the idea in their minds that you may be submissive as well as a gentleman.

The danger is that some jerk might think that means your jump at her or his beck and call -- ignore that person, everyone there knows she/he is a jerk.

The potential is there that someone might say "thanks" and strike up a conversation too.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to michaelOfGeorgia)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 4:17:42 PM

michaelOfGeorgia

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will have to remember that, provided i find a good group that doesn't bicker over the littlest things

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