Disposable subs (Full Version)

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AAkasha -> Disposable subs (7/30/2007 9:38:00 AM)

Femdoms, do you consider submissives disposable? At what point, and why, does a submissive become non-disposable?

I was thinking about this in response to a couple of threads ongoing and recent.  Some submissives have talked about how they feel defeated out of the gate because really, all a femdom has to say is "my way or the highway," because there are a hundred more subs lined up out her door waiting for a shot.  Others have talked about bdsm relationships being shallow, because a sub must obey or be tossed.  I thought about all this, and while I can see it may look that way, to me there's a deeper situation.

I think submissives are absolutely disposable upon first contact, of course.  Because they are just one of many. But from that point on, the clock is ticking, and any time a woman spends during this process is an investment. The larger the investment, the less disposable he becomes. To me, this is fairly straightforward.   For a submissive to assume otherwise, he devalues her time.  He thinks it's easy for her to just blow him off after spending 10, 15, or 100 hours working on him (whether that be emails, coffee, phone calls or play - it's all time, and time is a finite resource).

How does a submissive become less disposable?  Bank that time, and make it valuable to her.  Time well spent is a better investment.  And here's the key: Spend that time working on her hot buttons, not your own.  Or, focus the attention on her, not you.  That does not mean "how would you like to beat me today Miss" (even though you do not know her), it's effort to understand her as a woman, a friend, and a potential partner.  Find out how she ticks.   To stand out from the other submissives, really figure out how to touch her.

I think that's what it comes down to -- that the time invested is valuable to both people.  It's not as exciting and erotic to have that time invested be on learning her brain, her wiring, her joys and her fears; but it will endear you to her and make you less disposable.   The fun, saucy stuff comes as a byproduct of that.

That's just my opinion - I am very interested to hear what other femdoms think of disposable subs - at what point are you vested in them?  Do you feel great loss when you have to give up on them?  Are they a dime a dozen in your opinion?

Akasha



thetammyjo -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 10:38:49 AM)

I don't like the word disposable but I think that every person needs to offer us something positive in our lives or we are foolish to stay with them. That goes both ways, vanilla or kinky, bi, straight, or gay, top or bottom, sub or dom.

Once someone is creating more negatives than positives I think it is part of taking care of oneself to walk away from that dynamic or that relationship especially when there are no legal ties. Legal ties too should be lessened but that takes specific steps -- for example a divorce.

So that's my pet peeve on the word disposable.

As to when I have any responsibility toward a sub.... that's what my contract is for. Before that contract it is merely a matter of the moment's agreement to talk, or meet for lunch, or to chat on the phone. Nothing else. Again I think that goes both ways. If I say "Do this before I'll talk to you seriously about training" I do not sit around waiting for X to be done. It is done or not, I have no expectation that it will or will not be. If it is done, then we can talk more, if it is not done, that's my clear sign that the other person isn't interested in continuing.

I think by and large a lot of people on CM allow themselves to get too emotional involved early on in what are basically opening communications and meetings. I used to do that as well then I learned a better way for me. When someone complains that his/her heart is always broken or they are repeatedly disappointed, I stop empathizing at a certain point because they need to make a change to themselves or the cycle will simply repeat. (that was totally off topic but that's how my mind works through things)



earthycouple -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 11:37:39 AM)

I have a problem with the idea of expendable or disposable people too.  Of course when we first meet or make contact I have no issues with moving on or their moving on if something isn't fitting. 

I like to build connections with people and with those I really like I tend to build them fast and strong.  Even those I know will not be "the one" for me but come to fill a need (for us both by the way) I bond in some way with them.  I can't have them here pleasing me in various ways if I don't like em or only tolerate them.  I do know people like this, though..."he serves a purpose and I just don't talk to him"  I like the theory well enough...I just can't do it.  My sadistic side does not include doing a disservice to the two of us by keeping him around when he bugs me.

As well I think that dominants are in a position to be just as disposable as she (or he) makes the submissive in her ward.  I rather not be disposable.  I rather be, as someone once called me, a commodity.  *Not to hijack*  But I thought it incredibly silly when I was called a commodity and laughed about it saying well....only if I'm something exotic and expensive like Saffron. 

Anyway...back on track... I want to grow with and learn from and love those around me.  I want to build lasting relationships with my casual play partners, with my domestic help, and want to build the one relationship with a live in who fulfills my needs and I his.








DianeB269 -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 11:41:59 AM)

A disposable sub is what I look for now. (when I'm looking)


Diane



SunNMoon -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 2:58:22 PM)

I’m posting this before reading what other have said.

First I don’t see people as disposable, and a submissive is first and for most to me a person.

I’m looking for more of the male-wife submissive type. I’m taking the dating approach to finding this person. Which means that I will move on when we’re just not clicking, maybe I’ll have a friendship with them or it was nice getting to know them.  Now once we’re in a relationship, it will end when it’s more negative then positive. Or when feelings change. Really I see it as how any relationship ends; some are meant to be for a short time others for longer. No time was the relationship disposable.



ElanSubdued -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 3:21:17 PM)

Akasha,

I plucked one paragraph out of your OP that particularly resonated with me.  My comments as follows:

--- I think that's what it comes down to -- that
--- the time invested is valuable to both people.

This is the essence of the matter.  I think you've nailed it dead on with this one sentence.  When the time spent is valuable to both domme and submissive, the relationship is much less likely to end up disposable.

--- It's not as exciting and erotic to have that
--- time invested be on learning her brain, her
--- wiring, her joys and her fears; but it will endear
--- you to her and make you less disposable.

I disagree with the former part and agree with the later.  It is an absolute joy to discover my partner's thinking, to slowly unwrap her joys and fears, and to learn her wiring and the things that make her smile.  It is these human moments that I value and cherish far more than BDSM play or a specific session we might enjoy.  And I must underline this:  exploring my partner's mind is totally intimate, endearing, and erotic - just not in an overt, "whips and chains" kind of way.  It's more subtle and lusciously drawn out and that's part of what makes this such a wonderful thing to share.

--- The fun, saucy stuff comes as a byproduct
--- of that.

Yes, I agree.  Fun, saucy play is the fringe benefit of building a trusting, valued relationship.  Many fall into the mistake of thinking that play is the main course.

The phrases "disposable submissive" and "non-disposable submissive" are interesting.  This mindset is probably the crux of why I approach so few dommes.  Demonstrating an economics approach of supply and demand isn't likely to attract my attention because being treated as an "easily replaceable" commodity is one of my biggest turn-offs.  In fact, if I can say this humbly, I'm not an easily replaceable commodity.  Rather, I'm a strong, capable, loving, intelligent, kind, passionate man and human being.  And yes, I'm all of these things and by chance, a submissive too.  If a domme doesn't share her own value and demonstrate qualities I find attractive on a human level, we're not ever going to enter the relationship and/or BDSM ballpark.

My words may sound like a challenge but they are not intended to be.  If someone isn't open, courteous, and inviting, why am I going to take the time to get to know them on any level (let alone on a level that is deeply personal and intimate)?  No one has ever succeeded in demanding and/or wrenching submission from me.  BDSM dynamics only work when my partner and I have both inspired one another to want to freely give and share in this way.  This is why the tribute thing doesn't work for me.  As soon as someone asks for tribute, I'm no longer freely giving and the relationship becomes one of accounting.  (i.e. Did we each get fair value for what we exchanged?  How much will the next interaction cost?  etc.)

When talking about literal supply and demand, my experience is that the numbers for dommes versus submissives seeking non-disposable, lasting relationships are about equal.  Where the difficulty lays is that seemingly these numbers just aren't that large and people are spread out across many countries and continents.  With regard to femdom/malesub relationships specifically (at least on the Internet), those looking for long-term relationships must filter through a monumentally larger number of people searching for casual, professional, and one-off encounters.

I can't really answer the final questions you asked in the OP because I'm not a domme.  What I can say is that people who treat me with contempt and who do not value me as an entire person are indeed disposable.  Sure, the more time I spend getting to know a domme's personality and exploring and sharing with her, the more difficult it becomes to let her go.  I think this is true of most people.  We don't want to lose attachments and investments we've made.

Now that I've had quite a bit of life experience in BDSM relationships, when meeting dommes, I'm somewhat cautious because the whole idea that one person caters exclusively to the other isn't a great blueprint for long-term relationships.  Many dommes seem to subscribe to this modus operandi with great vigor.  Knowing and respecting the leadership of my partner is comforting and essential in the relationship I seek, but often it takes all hands on deck to effectively captain a ship.  I've been accused by dommes of "not being submissive enough" simply because I'm intelligent and not afraid to communicate and use my skills.  Obviously, a subordinate must enhance their leader's goals and consequently I would think a domme would want to surround herself with capable talent.

I've wandered a bit off-topic so I'll rewind and summarize that non-disposable relationships more likely occur when both people appreciate each other's talents and are complimentary to one another.  While BDSM is still not the mainstream (and probably never will be), kinksters can now meet huge numbers of potential partners through the Internet and at parties, events, and the like.  Notice I said "huge numbers of potential partners" not "huge numbers of compatible partners".  Filtering has becomes quite an essential and arduous task and because of this, at the outset, both dommes and submissives may view one another as largely disposable.  Getting past this to see if there is any mutual compatibility and desire is the challenge.

BDSM protocols and other loaded interactions we kinksters like to play with often make communicating far more difficult than it should be.  Attempting to meet a domme sometimes feels like accidentally stepping into a war zone.  The dommes are on one side, the submissives are on the other side, and each side is acutely aware of and adroit in protecting itself from being abused by the other.  I'm not sure if this is as bad in maledom/femsub meetings, but the problem seems very pronounced in femdom/malesub interactions (especially online).  I don't even want to speculate on femdom/femsub and maledom/malesub scenarios because this is somewhat outside my realm of relationship experience.

Elan.



ElanSubdued -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 3:25:56 PM)

SunNMoon,

quote:

First I don’t see people as disposable, and a submissive is first and for most to me a person.  I’m looking for more of the male-wife submissive type.  I’m taking the dating approach to finding this person.  Which means that I will move on when we’re just not clicking, maybe I’ll have a friendship with them or it was nice getting to know them.  Now once we’re in a relationship, it will end when it’s more negative then positive.  Or when feelings change.  Really I see it as how any relationship ends;  some are meant to be for a short time others for longer.  No time was the relationship disposable.


I don't have anything to add to your thoughts.  This just makes a whole lot of sense to me so I thought I'd say so. [;)]

Elan.



PairOfDimes -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 3:29:46 PM)

Nope, but I've had relationships with playmates that I knew (and they knew) were going to be short-lived from the start. Sometimes we knew we weren't *that* into one another, at least, not in a long-term emotional intimacy kind of way, but there was some serious mutual attraction there that needed to get burned off. Other times, it was because of outside constraints--one of us was moving away soon, or one of us would experience a serious decrease in available playtime--and in at least one of those cases, it might have developed into something more emotionally serious, but we didn't let it.



MistressSassy66 -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 3:47:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Femdoms, do you consider submissives disposable? At what point, and why, does a submissive become non-disposable?

I was thinking about this in response to a couple of threads ongoing and recent.  Some submissives have talked about how they feel defeated out of the gate because really, all a femdom has to say is "my way or the highway," because there are a hundred more subs lined up out her door waiting for a shot.  Others have talked about bdsm relationships being shallow, because a sub must obey or be tossed.  I thought about all this, and while I can see it may look that way, to me there's a deeper situation.

I think submissives are absolutely disposable upon first contact, of course.  Because they are just one of many. But from that point on, the clock is ticking, and any time a woman spends during this process is an investment. The larger the investment, the less disposable he becomes. To me, this is fairly straightforward.   For a submissive to assume otherwise, he devalues her time.  He thinks it's easy for her to just blow him off after spending 10, 15, or 100 hours working on him (whether that be emails, coffee, phone calls or play - it's all time, and time is a finite resource).

I absolutely agree with that.The first contact can be the make or break second break with Me.

How does a submissive become less disposable?  Bank that time, and make it valuable to her.  Time well spent is a better investment.  And here's the key: Spend that time working on her hot buttons, not your own.  Or, focus the attention on her, not you.  That does not mean "how would you like to beat me today Miss" (even though you do not know her), it's effort to understand her as a woman, a friend, and a potential partner.  Find out how she ticks.   To stand out from the other submissives, really figure out how to touch her.

If only some got that.
I have to add for My personal part that they would get I am not into
sexual Domination,or do I need someone begging to use them as
My sex toy to satisfy My every need.

I think that's what it comes down to -- that the time invested is valuable to both people.  It's not as exciting and erotic to have that time invested be on learning her brain, her wiring, her joys and her fears; but it will endear you to her and make you less disposable.   The fun, saucy stuff comes as a byproduct of that.

That is so true.

That's just my opinion - I am very interested to hear what other femdoms think of disposable subs - at what point are you vested in them?  Do you feel great loss when you have to give up on them?  Are they a dime a dozen in your opinion?

Akasha


The point I am vested in them varies from submissive to submissive.
I do feel a loss when I have to give up on them. Maybe its because I feel sometimes that I could have done something different.Afterall I am only human.
I feel sad sometimes when I have to say goodbye,others it was pleasure to say dont come back here.
The good/serious ones are not a dime a dozen.
The ones that think its what they want...are definitely a dime a dozen,
in My opinion.
 



petdave -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 3:48:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Bank that time, and make it valuable to her.  Time well spent is a better investment. 


Ahh, romance- Femdom style! Should we try to build islands of excellence, or avoid silo-ing our skills this week? i'm not in management, so it's hard to keep up.


When i did temp work, i had a Dilbert comic taped to the wall over my bed. Pointy-Haired-Boss has a stiff male cartoon figure slung over his shoulder, and is tossing him into a large Dumpster.

Dilbert asks "Why are you throwing that temp in the Dumpster?"


Answer: Because they're too big to flush!


Remember- no matter what the phrase "toilet sub" brings to mind, the same is true for male submissives. Ignore this fact at your peril (and your plumber's gain).



...dave
(refuse disposal refugee)



LaTigresse -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 3:49:42 PM)

Definately not!

I am at the point in my life where I have zero interest in a disposable relationship. I want something long term or not at all.

I just don't have the time or patience for disposable.



littlesarbonn -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 4:56:51 PM)

I feel this way a lot as a submissive. So, I don't look as much as I used to. Doesn't really seem worth the effort, unfortunately.



MisPandora -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 5:27:09 PM)

I think there's a line between separating the wheat from the chaff, and disposing of someone who has been found to be submissive and useful. 

That being said, I'd be interested to explore the other side of this equation -- how many males on a site like this treat a domina as though she were disposable/easily replaced?



SDFemDom4cuck -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 6:32:19 PM)

quote:

I think submissives are absolutely disposable upon first contact, of course.  Because they are just one of many. But from that point on, the clock is ticking, and any time a woman spends during this process is an investment. The larger the investment, the less disposable he becomes. To me, this is fairly straightforward.   For a submissive to assume otherwise, he devalues her time.  He thinks it's easy for her to just blow him off after spending 10, 15, or 100 hours working on him (whether that be emails, coffee, phone calls or play - it's all time, and time is a finite resource).


I agree with this to a certain extent. Which is one of the reasons why I always insist that their first impression is so vitally important. I list the things in my profile that won't get a response from me. If someone can't bother to read and comprehend those things then I'm not going to waste my time replying. I've already stated it once very clearly on my profile and I'm not going to waste the time to repeat it again. I'm just going to hit delete and move on to the next. I'm also not going to be the one making all the effort and not seeing an equal amount of effort being made in return. Someone that shows that they are just as interested is going to see more interest from me in return. Lovely little cycle there.

quote:

I think that's what it comes down to -- that the time invested is valuable to both people.  It's not as exciting and erotic to have that time invested be on learning her brain, her wiring, her joys and her fears; but it will endear you to her and make you less disposable.   The fun, saucy stuff comes as a byproduct of that.


I agree with this time investment completely. I think the key to either side (and a successful D/s relationship) is discovering what makes each tick. Anyone that can't be bothered to look past the outer appearance and enjoy and know my big sadisticly deviant brain, my likes, interests or pleasures won't get very far for very long with me. A great deal of my enjoyment at getting to know someone comes from picking their brain and spelunking around in there. It takes a great deal to intrigue me enough to want to do that.

quote:

That's just my opinion - I am very interested to hear what other femdoms think of disposable subs - at what point are you vested in them?  Do you feel great loss when you have to give up on them?  Are they a dime a dozen in your opinion?


I don't necessarily think of anyone as disposable. Nor would I want to be thought of in those terms. There have been submissives in my life that have been short term knowingly from the beginning. That didn't make them disposable or any less appreciated than someone long term. There is a feeling of loss because there was a connection made and enjoyed by both sides. A purpose was served by our being a part of one another's lives and I would hope that each of us has learned and grown from the experiences. 

I've never looked at anyone that I chose to bring into my life as someone or something disposable. If I did, they wouldn't be brought into my life to begin with. Prior to that point I simply see it as a getting to know one another and seeing if there are commonalities and a compatiblity. As contradictory as it may sound I am only interested in someone that chooses to defer to me from the start. Because they desire to do so. Of course, I have certain expectations of behavior and interaction that, if they can't seem to meet, tend to cause my disinterest. If that occurs it simply tells me that there isn't that high of a level of compatibility.

As for when I'm vested in them...that's hard to say. Each one has been different. There is no one certain guidepoint or limit to interaction that causes me to be vested in someone. I've had subs I've spoken to and known for long periods of time that I'm still not vested in an emotional aspect and I won't ever be vested in them. Another was a vested interest relatively quickly because it simply was. Obviously we've all spent time and attention focused on someone only to find that it wouldn't work out for one reason or another. Disappointing perhaps, but that doesn't mean they are seen as something or someone disposable. I guess my biggest point of divergence here is that thought that any human being is disposable. I feel there is soemwhat of a difference between someone not being deserving of my time and attention and someone being disposable.

Yes, I'm rambling a bit...it's been a long day.



michaelOfGeorgia -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 6:33:59 PM)

it always seems like i'm disposible...especially before any possible meetings



LadyHugs -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 7:14:05 PM)

Dear AAkaska, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I do understand the question posed but, I am of the belief that a slave/submissive who may not be a match for me is not a reasonable cause to disqualify them as someone who would serve someone else.  It boils down to personal choices and expectations. 
 
That said, it requires time and investment of personal interaction to lay the foundation down as to see if there is 'something' to build a relationship on.  It may build into something different from the original meeting and or purpose but, the individuals who won't even fit into an acquaintance status could be considered disqualified but, I really am uncomfortable with saying people are 'disposable' even though there are feelings like having been 'disposed of.'
 
As far as disposable goes -- I think many have been no match at all and some responses to rejection or those who are rejecting others can be rather cruel.  However, each person must do what is right for them.  Sometimes a thick skin is necessary.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 



preysub -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 7:47:16 PM)

I like many submissives feel like we are disposable some times because some people can be so rude and bossy instead of Dominant . Its understandable that we do not match everyone and that there is a need for Dommes to sort wheat fron chaff ,However i some time wonder how much wheat is waisted because no patients is shown to the hungey subs . I mean hungry ,in the sence of hungry to serve and please and as a result we tend to be a little keen or even impatient for establish some contact od discussion with a potential Domme .

On the subject of time invested in discussion etc well i agree ,this time needs to be used wisely. But even that is a two way street in that a Domme should in my view interview the sub to establish if there is any real likely match ,instead of waiting endless discussions on nothing and small talk and disappearing after 5 minutes not to return for a week .

preysub



SunNMoon -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 8:37:06 PM)

Thank you [:)] I like what you had to say as well.
Kat

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued

SunNMoon,

quote:

First I don’t see people as disposable, and a submissive is first and for most to me a person.  I’m looking for more of the male-wife submissive type.  I’m taking the dating approach to finding this person.  Which means that I will move on when we’re just not clicking, maybe I’ll have a friendship with them or it was nice getting to know them.  Now once we’re in a relationship, it will end when it’s more negative then positive.  Or when feelings change.  Really I see it as how any relationship ends;  some are meant to be for a short time others for longer.  No time was the relationship disposable.


I don't have anything to add to your thoughts.  This just makes a whole lot of sense to me so I thought I'd say so. [;)]

Elan.




undergroundsea -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 8:55:09 PM)

I think the comments in the OP about the value of time invested, and what makes that time spent more valuable make sense.

I see compatibility and attraction to exist as a spectrum versus a binary form. I think people who are unattached or are interested to meet someone for whatever reason encounter others who fall in various spots along this spectrum. Those who fall in the range of moderate compatibility are replaceable in the sense that ongoing discussion may move them towards lesser compatibility or that arrival of a person who presents strong compatibility will change the focus of interest. How easily one is willing to replace depends on where on the compatibility spectrum the other falls, and what alternatives exist. I think that is social psychology at work and occurs in all directions. And I think the point about other alternatives makes the choice to replace more common amongst women, especially dommes.

I think where one falls on this compatibility spectrum can move in either direction, especially in the early stages, as each gets to know more about the other. I think what is described in the OP helps grow an emotional bond, which helps one move further along the spectrum.

I think it is fair for people with moderate compatibility to enjoy time together so long as it serves each. I have had relationships or introductions which did not have strong compatibility and were known to be not long term. I keep those experiences as positive ones--I am grateful for these experiences and hold good will towards those with whom I shared these experiences.

I think there are different ways for how to withdraw from an interaction or dialog with one of moderate compatibility, and some approaches are more effective than others.

Cheers,

Sea



cloudboy -> RE: Disposable subs (7/30/2007 9:24:01 PM)


I must say you read like something out of cosmopolitan. While trying to say a D/S relationship can be soulful and connecting, you still nonetheless describe it as transactional and conditional.

In my relationship, neither one of us views it as an investment of time, we view it as a bonding experience. If its not bonding, its not going to last.

Bonding is not a by-the-numbers process either (do this, pay attention to that, etc. -- aka a Cosmo formula), no I think its an organic process that is intuitive and native to the individuals involved.

As I see it, if you as guy realize after time that a woman doesn't really care or value you --- you should walk out. Her bonding to you should not be a conditional process, rather it should be a purely personal, individual melding of her soul to yours.



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