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Subspace Dilemna - 6/28/2005 8:24:23 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

Okay, I know I'm not the only one to have this experience but I really need to rant for a moment...

I'm not naive, innocent, stupid, incautious, or desperate in any way...and yet, no matter how hard I try I can't figure out how to handle this problem.

When I am getting to know a potential playmate, it becomes apparent fairly fast whether he is dominant or not...you fellow subs out there know what I mean...I get less articulate, less cautious, and all my good intentions not to fall into subspace seem like silly vanity.

I truly feel that a dominant with any experience and class would recognize this dynamic and not use this to their advantage...but we all know that not all dominants are ethical (just as not all subs or vanilla folks are ethical), and so some do use it to push their will without full consent.

Subspace IS a little like being drunk.

So...here's the dilemna...I want to be able to just be me when I am getting to know a dominant, but me is very submissive and if I let that wall down I become vulnerable and risk going further than I am comfortable with...But if I keep that wall up then it's much more difficult to know if we click in a D/s sense.

I hate when dominants use their power over submissives to get what they want before they have a right to do so, it's nasty and unfair...(and yes, I got caught up in again and burned a bit...my bad...I'll survive).

I don't want to deny the submissive side of me out of fear of being taken advantage of, but I'm not happy being played for a fool either...so...what's the answer? How do other people handle this? I could use some fresh perspective.

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/28/2005 8:44:20 PM

domtimothy46176

Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline

I advise first meetings to take place at munches or in the company of trusted friends. There's nothing shameful about the reaction you have to a dominant's presence and a chaperone might save you a lot of heartache and regrets.
Best of luck,
Timothy

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/28/2005 8:55:21 PM

Posts: 68
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline

Subspace at times is voluntary, for me anyway. Sometimes I need to reach that place so I am at my full potential and other times I don't need to tap into it for strength so to say.

As for your dilema, judging from what you said, I feel that what you are doing is an issue with wanting to please and your general nature of being submissive.
You need to gain some control of subspace, so you are able to not go so deep with a general meeting of someone new.

Harder then it sounds, I know and understand that. But as with life, some states of mind (like bitch mode or find the best bargain for your money mode) you need to be able to turn on and off as you see them fit.

A public place or bringing a good friend could help. Make the meeting place somewhere you are very comfortable and you feel you can be confident in.
Just because you are very submissive, doesn't mean you are weak in any way.

Mind over matter :)

(in reply to domtimothy46176)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/28/2005 9:04:02 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

I do meet in public, although not always with 'chaperones, as that feels a bit overboard for me. (I do have safecalls in place, and meet during the day at a local coffee shop).

You're right, that's always wise.

What I am talking about can occur over the phone, or in public...And doesn't always involve sex. I guess I should have clarifed that.

Cin

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to domtimothy46176)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/28/2005 9:08:21 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SubBlue

Subspace at times is voluntary, for me anyway.

It is for me too, but that wasn't my point. I didn't say I get forced to go into subspace but that I feel the urge to do so, which does help me better sense the effect he might have on me when/if we play.

In a way it's like flirting...

Cin

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to SubBlue)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/28/2005 9:20:33 PM

Posts: 68
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Vancouver_cinful

It is for me too, but that wasn't my point. I didn't say I get forced to go into subspace but that I feel the urge to do so, which does help me better sense the effect he might have on me when/if we play.

In a way it's like flirting...

Cin

In your origional statement you said it was like being drunk. Sometimes you don't want to be drunk on your first date, sometimes it isn't the right first impression you want to make.

You want to feel if the PYL (pick your label) has "it" ... and you said it was like flirting, well...then don't turn on subspace till the third "date" or so. You both know where each other stands as far as who is the PYL/pyl, so meet the person, talk to them, shine some lights on similiar interests.
Go somewhere else on another meet, talk about what you are into a little more deeply, share some funny or good experiences, maybe even about hard limits.

Like any other meeting with a person, try not to rush. Savor meeting the new person. PYLs have a way of turning on their "charm" and pyls just sink. Take the upper hand!
It isn't proper to top from the bottom ... but all is fair in love and war ... and in the game of flirt !

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/29/2005 5:45:54 AM

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful
When I am getting to know a potential playmate, it becomes apparent fairly fast whether he is dominant or not...you fellow subs out there know what I mean...I get less articulate, less cautious, and all my good intentions not to fall into subspace seem like silly vanity.

That's not knowing whether HE is dominant or not, that's YOU reacting as a submissive to that person.

Just because I don't react as a slave to someone doesn't mean they aren't a dominant.

quote:

So...here's the dilemna...I want to be able to just be me when I am getting to know a dominant, but me is very submissive and if I let that wall down I become vulnerable and risk going further than I am comfortable with...But if I keep that wall up then it's much more difficult to know if we click in a D/s sense.

How long a period are we talking here? You're a responsible adult, act like it. Don't allow yourself to lose good judgement. Over periods of months and years you can get to know this other person as "yourself" just fine. And you can hone your judgement to know when it's ok to let yourself go quickly and when someone will take advantage the wrong way.

quote:

I hate when dominants use their power over submissives to get what they want before they have a right to do so, it's nasty and unfair...(and yes, I got caught up in again and burned a bit...my bad...I'll survive).

Unfair...so you were taught that the world was fair somewhere down the line?

They have the power YOU choose to give them. Accept it or continue to be a victim of your own choosing.

quote:

I don't want to deny the submissive side of me out of fear of being taken advantage of, but I'm not happy being played for a fool either...so...what's the answer? How do other people handle this? I could use some fresh perspective.

Act like an adult, keep yourself under control and out of submissive frenzy until you can trust your judgement, take TIME to get to know someone before letting your judgement go like that.

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/29/2005 8:54:49 AM

flirt

Posts: 29
Joined: 5/16/2004
Status: offline

The biggest concern that came to mind when reading this was, it sounds as if you are playing with people you don't know very well if at all. The suggestions offered about being in a group of friends perhaps are good ones.

i realize i may stir up a hornets nest but we all have our own opinions and ideas about things and this lifestyle is inclusive of all imgaginable people, but for me i don't play / scene with someone i don't know. When i do decide it is a safe move i never meet them alone it is generally at a party / event within my group or in the home of someone else and others present.

Maybe when playing with someone for the first several times try keeping it light and fun, lots of communication, maybe some laughter or silliness. Going into subspace is not a requirment it is an effect, it is also an area where you can and should maintain control. If striving to reach such a 'space' is a goal when you play then perhaps there are other reasons for what you are doing and they may not be so harmless and safe.

Watching Someone play with their own, or someone else does not assure you that they would be the same with you in a group and certainly not alone, never assume your safety it is dangerous. Don't take comfort in the fact you may have watched this Dominant play before.

Subspace in my view is in no way connected to any form or level of flirting. If you enjoy the feeling of euphoria so much that you allow these situations to take place please slow down and take a look at what you may really be doing or needing. Again, my opinion only, it seems very unlike a Dominant and submissive partaking in a BDSM scene to me.

i guess i am just getting old. i have a passion and hunger for the lifestyle i live that is as fresh as when i first began and along the road i have learned. What is inside of you? What drives you? What do you need? Some people are into the play aspect only and mistake it for D/s or M/s including BDSM play that is something different. Please, i mean no disrespect but having survived near death literally some years back for my irresponsibility i ask that you look deeper at yourself.

With Care,

flirt aka enigma

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/29/2005 5:55:21 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

Well, I've obviously given people the impression that I make rash decisions, play in private with men I don't know, and perhaps am too eager/desperate to play, or too irresponsible/naive to be let out alone. ::laughing::

The reality is I'm none of those things. My innate sense of people and situations has so far prevented me from ever being in danger, and I have every intention of doing my best to see that my streak continues.

While once in a blue moon (as in this time LOL) I may not make the wisest choice, or I may get caught up in a bit faster pace than maybe was warranted, I hardly think anyone can say they haven't done the same. Yes, my ego is bruised but I am none-the-worse for wear. I believed a liar. It happens.

Almost every dominant I have talked to comments that I am way more cautious and protective of my safety than the avarage woman they meet. Some are complimenting me when they say this...Some are complaining. Either way I take it as a source of pride.

I suppose what I was trying to do here is re-evalute the pace at which I take things and the height of the walls I put up...I'm always growing, learning, evolving, and I feel that reaching out for different perspectives is always wise...

We live in a great age where we have access to so many opinions. Although perhaps I failed to reach any new answers here, I appreciate that people took the time to post.

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to flirt)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/29/2005 5:59:15 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

Unfair...so you were taught that the world was fair somewhere down the line?

And just because the world is not fair, does that make it right for a person to deceive another person?

I may have to live with it, but do I have to like it, or blame myself for be willing to extend a bit of faith?

I'd rather be disillusioned occasionally than go through life assuming everyone is a liar and out to get me.

Cin

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/29/2005 6:05:20 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: flirt

Please, i mean no disrespect but having survived near death literally some years back for my irresponsibility i ask that you look deeper at yourself.

With Care,

flirt aka enigma

I appreciate the concern. Let me assure you that only my ego was at risk. I am a very cautious person, surrounded by wonderful friends and family who would miss me terribly if I let anything happen to me...for that alone I would take serious precautions.

I value my life and my emotional well-being too much to endanger it for this lifestyle.

Thanks for your concern, {{hug}}
Cin

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to flirt)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/30/2005 12:19:48 PM

Posts: 119
Status: offline

well, here is buffy's two-cents worth:
i also meet people either at munches or with Another. i did not use to but after being stalked i learn my lesson ....
i DO play with people i do NOT know (grins, thinking of how That will 'go over').... but,
it is usually done at play parties where the DM's know me well and monitor me very very well indeed or where i am with a One i trust, Who is Experienced enough to know what things to watch for when Oone 'plays', in terms of checking the girl and her extremities often. One Who will say 'no' to Others Who wish to do other 'things' at times when she is unable to say no, or yes or anything ( like just after a scene ends).

Now then.... i am a responsible adult. i hold a responsible job. but.... i am a slave. One only have to meet me to know this. so..... how does that all impacte on things eh?
well, its like this:
i am aware that there is a deep need within the girl to please. it is both a case of 'nature' and 'nurture'. i am one who love to please, and serve and to obey. It is also what i have been taught all my life.
In the 'vanilla job' this actualely plays out very well as, like many submissives/slaves, i work within the helping fields. i use humoure a lot and it works. i care about people and this also shows.
In the BDSM Life, i am totalely able to 'be myself'. Isnt that why Wwe collect together in clubs, parties, munches etc? To be with Oothers like Oourselves? So that Wwe can be who and what, Wwe are in a safe place?
But i try to be careful, knowing both my need to please and my over-trusting nature. There, i am lucky as i have Friends in the Life around to help me with meeting New Ones and also acting as the girls 'safety net'.
As to subspace:
dont tell me i can controle it. i cant. All the 'telling' me to do that in the world is not going to change that. It is not do-able and i have tried.
no idea how it comes or when it is going to occur or how deep it will happen. Once in a blue moon i have try to think of 'taxes' to keep my mind going when i have worry that it would end a delightful 'scene' too soon, but.... that works less and less and i seem to go deeper quicker and easier now.
i have learn that certain things 'trigger' it more than others.... like erotic touch mix with pain and some hair pulling things (even writing this make me shiver with the memory of it <yummmmm>).
Like anyone else, buffy is a 'work in progress' ... she love the Life, she keep in mind that this Lifestyle CAN be 'prone' to abuse-issues and trys very hard to keep that in mind.
i strive to keep in mind too, that i am keeping this body, this mind, this heart, for the One who will claim them as His. To that One, i have a responsbility to keep it all in good shape. Of course at times i fail in that but hey! i'm not infallible (why just last sunday i fell off my bike and hurt my head)!
see?
grins, .... well thats it for me for now! See Yya'll on the flip side!

respectfully,
buffiyum (tongue in cheek, and hoping Yyer humoure meters are all running when Yyous read this).

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/30/2005 12:35:43 PM

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful
And just because the world is not fair, does that make it right for a person to deceive another person?

No, but this topic isn't about the rightness of the world, it's how to deal with the reality of it.

quote:

I may have to live with it, but do I have to like it, or blame myself for be willing to extend a bit of faith?

No you don't. But you aren't living with it, you're allowing yourself to be controlled by it and asking for help on how to stop it.

quote:

I'd rather be disillusioned occasionally than go through life assuming everyone is a liar and out to get me.

Cin

Then why make this post asking for help? If you're happy with how things are going, what's the problem?

My post didn't say there was only one extreme option of assuming everyone is a liar. Try not to get defensive and lose the meaning of the help you requested. It's hard to admit that we need to change ourselves and stop allowing others to do things, but it's necessary.

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/30/2005 1:48:37 PM

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Joined: 6/30/2005
Status: offline

Well all i can say is try to keep meetings to a social place at first, trust your "inner voice" take all the time you need email then im, then call, then meet. Pain is going to happen as noone likes to be hurt all you can truly conrol is yourself, in that as long as your upfront an real about what your looking for an need it will definately help. I am puzzled as the poster above me said you later then say things are fine so im confused as to if this is a real problem for you.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/30/2005 2:41:31 PM

Rubyb

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful
...
Subspace IS a little like being drunk.

So...here's the dilemna...I want to be able to just be me when I am getting to know a dominant, but me is very submissive and if I let that wall down I become vulnerable and risk going further than I am comfortable with...But if I keep that wall up then it's much more difficult to know if we click in a D/s sense.

...

I don't want to deny the submissive side of me out of fear of being taken advantage of, but I'm not happy being played for a fool either...so...what's the answer? How do other people handle this? I could use some fresh perspective.

Cin,

Your original post reads like a cross between a rant and a request for advice. So I'll focus on the request for advice.

There is a big difference between being in subspace and being a submissive.
We could probably start a whole new thread about that statement.

You talk about letting down a wall, what wall? The wall that lets you enter subspace?

If that's the wall, I would advice keeping it firmly in place. There are far better ways to test a potential dom then by entering subspace in your first meetings. By doing so leaves you far too vulnerable.

You either click with someone in the first 3/5 minutes or you don't.
He either turns you on or he doesn't.
Once you get past that initial 3/5 minutes, and you decide you want to pursue a relationship then the "interview" begins.

For how many dates, meetings, etc. until you feel safe and comfortable is up to you.
You might even ask the dom for references or watch him in action.

It all depends on what your seeking, yet I'll be every clear on this, IMO subspace has no part to play in the interview process. That belongs in the "let's take him for a test drive" phase of the relationship.

To your success,

Ruby

PS

If you were talking about another wall, please explain.

_____________________________

Ruby Bloodstone
Author and fan of erotic vampire fiction.
Lifemate and pet to T, Nathaniel's Miss

Ruby's portfolio at writing.com:
http://Writing.Com/authors/rubyb

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/30/2005 3:33:55 PM

Posts: 292
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

Okay, I know I'm not the only one to have this experience but I really need to rant for a moment...

I'm not naive, innocent, stupid, incautious, or desperate in any way...and yet, no matter how hard I try I can't figure out how to handle this problem.

When I am getting to know a potential playmate, it becomes apparent fairly fast whether he is dominant or not...you fellow subs out there know what I mean...I get less articulate, less cautious, and all my good intentions not to fall into subspace seem like silly vanity.

I truly feel that a dominant with any experience and class would recognize this dynamic and not use this to their advantage...but we all know that not all dominants are ethical (just as not all subs or vanilla folks are ethical), and so some do use it to push their will without full consent.

Subspace IS a little like being drunk.

You are correct, you are definitely not the only one to experience this type of subspace that I have labeled "subbie-stupor" versus subspace, which for me are two completely different things. Subspace is something I experience when I am playing and subbie-stupor to me is more of what you are describing and can happen anywhere, it has nothing to do with playing or scening. To those who do not experience this, I don't think it could really be explained in a way that they understand, because I have tried and I've heard others try and it just seems to be one of those "have to be there" kind of things.

Comparing it to being a little drunk is actually though not a bad analogy. And I also want to add that for those of us who HAVE experienced that, believe me, we do not think you are stupid or easy or a doormat or anything like that and your post alone makes it obvious you are a responsible adult and don't need to be reminded of that. I myself have found it frustrating at times, but realize that it's just part of who I am and the reactions I have because of who I am.

quote:

So...here's the dilemna...I want to be able to just be me when I am getting to know a dominant, but me is very submissive and if I let that wall down I become vulnerable and risk going further than I am comfortable with...But if I keep that wall up then it's much more difficult to know if we click in a D/s sense.

I hate when dominants use their power over submissives to get what they want before they have a right to do so, it's nasty and unfair...(and yes, I got caught up in again and burned a bit...my bad...I'll survive).

I don't want to deny the submissive side of me out of fear of being taken advantage of, but I'm not happy being played for a fool either...so...what's the answer? How do other people handle this? I could use some fresh perspective.

Everything you said is justified and in my opinion, correct. You have every right to be concerned because as much as we would like, not every Dominant out there is of good character.

I wish I had some helpful advice other than what you probably already know of all the usual precautions to take before meeting someone. Anyone I met through sites such as CollarMe were with the specific intention of a prospective relationship and I tried to get to know someone before meeting them, and at least make every effort to determine if they were of a good character and would not use that vulnerability against me. And at least from my own personal experience, sometimes that was a very short time, others a bit longer. One thing I found was that I made it clear BEFORE MEETING that I would not play on the first meet and the reaction to that usually told me a lot. I'm not saying I didn't break that rule on occasion, but I found that if someone threw your basic temper tantrum or got huffy about that, usually that would pretty much break that "subbie-stupor" drunk-like feeling, almost like throwing a bucket of cold water on me.

Think back over the bad experience that you had -- do you think that same Dom would have that "power" over you now? Not likely.

If I did play with someone and that's all it was going to be, I found it best to do that with those I knew through the community and even better yet, at a play party or something where others were around who knew me.

Most importantly, don't feel you are alone in having this reaction and experience and try to remember that when you come across a Dom you DO connect with, I think it becomes a positive aspect instead of something you have to be concerned about.

Be well and pay safe,
harmony

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/30/2005 4:06:40 PM

Posts: 713
Joined: 9/26/2004
From: Portland oregon
Status: offline

Am not sure your question has anything to do with "subspace" but it does have to do with the vulnerability of a sub.
Any responsible "Dom" would be aware of this issue and treat it carefully.
There are many "users" who just use and "toss" and that is not right.
So you as a sub does indeed need to be carefull and have a support system in place to help protect YOU.

_____________________________

Phil Moulton
A Sensual Touch
Locopony Racing
Portland Oregon

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/30/2005 8:18:11 PM

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kinkypupper
So you as a sub does indeed need to be carefull and have a support system in place to help protect YOU.

Agreed, and the best support system is your own good judgement and being aware of the situation. You will always have that with you, no matter who is around or where you are.

In this situation especially, the dom is only doing what you allow him to do.

(in reply to Kinkypupper)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/30/2005 11:30:04 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: harmony3709
You are correct, you are definitely not the only one to experience this type of subspace that I have labeled "subbie-stupor" versus subspace, which for me are two completely different things. Subspace is something I experience when I am playing and subbie-stupor to me is more of what you are describing and can happen anywhere, it has nothing to do with playing or scening. To those who do not experience this, I don't think it could really be explained in a way that they understand, because I have tried and I've heard others try and it just seems to be one of those "have to be there" kind of things.

Comparing it to being a little drunk is actually though not a bad analogy. And I also want to add that for those of us who HAVE experienced that, believe me, we do not think you are stupid or easy or a doormat or anything like that and your post alone makes it obvious you are a responsible adult and don't need to be reminded of that. I myself have found it frustrating at times, but realize that it's just part of who I am and the reactions I have because of who I am.

Thank you Harmony. I knew someone would get what I was talking about. And you are right, that same dom would fail, no matter what he tried, to ever evoke any such reaction in me again.

I once came straight back to adult reality in the middle of a scene when a dom referred to himself as my master. This was not within our agreement, and was a red light for me. I noted at the time that, much like being in hypnosis, one does have control over what is happening.

I like your term sub-stupor..it's very appropos!!

Thanks so much for REALLY listening.

Cin

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to harmony3709)

RE: Subspace Dilemna - 6/30/2005 11:37:52 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: buffiyum
Now then.... i am a responsible adult. i hold a responsible job. but.... i am a slave. One only have to meet me to know this.

LOL It's nice to see you again, Buffy. Last time I saw you you were doing lovely service at a potluck. No one could say you were anything but a slave at heart. {{hug}}

Cin

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to buffiyum)

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